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˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

CherubRam said:
Yahwah is the God of Life and the God of Truth, and Yahshua is the way to the Truth.

Yahwah is a Spirit and the God of Truth.
Psalm 31:5
Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O Yahwah, the God of truth.

Isaiah 65:16
Whoever invokes a blessing in the land will do so by the God of truth; he who takes an oath in the land will swear by the God of truth. For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes.

John 14:16-17
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you Counsel and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth."

John 15:26
"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

Living Water of Life.
Yahwah is the source of life immortal.

Jeremiah 2:13
“My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

Jeremiah 17:13
Lord, you are the hope of Israel; all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken Yahwah, the spring of living water.

John 4:14
but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Revelation 22:1
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

Zechariah 14:8
On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

Psalm 135:21
Praise be to Yahwah from Zion, to Him who dwells in Jerusalem. Praise Yahwah.
After Yahwah has made all things new He will dwell in Jerusalem.

John 4:10
Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

John 4:11
“Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?

John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”
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You wouldn't have known any of these if not for the Holy Spirit which revealed the truth to you.
 
wondering said:
I couldn't disagree more.
The Trinity was formulated early in the church and was confirmed in Nicea in 325AD by the church.
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Polycarp, Clement, and Ignatius were the students of the original Disciples. They lived at the turn of the century, before and after 100 AD. They did not mention a trinity or give a description of a trinity in all their writings. It was not until the second century AD that the idea of a trinity began to take shape in the Christian community. A Gnostic named Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, also known as Tertullian, he was the first to introduce trinitarianism into Christianity. He was the first person to formulate the idea of one substance having three persons.



New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 Edition, Vol. 13, p.1021. The first use of the Latin word "trinitas" (trinity) with reference to God, is found in Tertullian's writings (about 213 AD) He was the first to use the term "persons" (plural) in a Trinitarian context.



Origen considered the Son to be not coequal, but derived from the Father whom is the Holy Spirit. Arius would also adopt the idea of the Son as being derivative of the Father in the third century AD. This eventually lead to a major crisis in the Counsel of Nicea. Arius who had many followers taught that Christ was a created being, created by the Father. PS Arians were the followers of Arius.



The creed that came out of the Counsel of Nicea in 325 AD did not conclude that there was a trinity. It simply proclaimed the divinity of Christ, rejecting Arianism. There was no resolution on who the Holy Spirit is. That issue would arise again in the Counsel of Constantinople in 381 AD.
 
Was there not a warning posted to not discuss the Trinity in this thread? There are several other threads for that discussion.
 
CherubRam said:
Polycarp, Clement, and Ignatius were the students of the original Disciples. They lived at the turn of the century, before and after 100 AD. They did not mention a trinity or give a description of a trinity in all their writings. It was not until the second century AD that the idea of a trinity began to take shape in the Christian community. A Gnostic named Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, also known as Tertullian, he was the first to introduce trinitarianism into Christianity. He was the first person to formulate the idea of one substance having three persons.



New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 Edition, Vol. 13, p.1021. The first use of the Latin word "trinitas" (trinity) with reference to God, is found in Tertullian's writings (about 213 AD) He was the first to use the term "persons" (plural) in a Trinitarian context.



Origen considered the Son to be not coequal, but derived from the Father whom is the Holy Spirit. Arius would also adopt the idea of the Son as being derivative of the Father in the third century AD. This eventually lead to a major crisis in the Counsel of Nicea. Arius who had many followers taught that Christ was a created being, created by the Father. PS Arians were the followers of Arius.



The creed that came out of the Counsel of Nicea in 325 AD did not conclude that there was a trinity. It simply proclaimed the divinity of Christ, rejecting Arianism. There was no resolution on who the Holy Spirit is. That issue would arise again in the Counsel of Constantinople in 381 AD.
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I'll tag you in another thread...
We're derailing.
 
7thMoon said:
God would do no such thing to ruin his own clout with his creation.
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Then you're stripping the Lord of his humanity and downplaying the gravity of his suffering on the cross. That being said, I'm done passing accusations and condemnations, that's the devil's job, so I'm out, God bless.
 
Greetings again SolaScriptura,
SolaScriptura said:
both the Father and Jesus Christ are called "’êl Gibbôr", which is MIGHTY GOD. So "’êl", can refer to either the Father or Jesus Christ.
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My understanding of this and many other passages is that Jesus as the Son of God acquires many of the characteristics of God, His Father. For example God the Father, Yahweh is David's Shepherd Psalm 23, but Jesus is "the Good Shepherd". The phrase "El Gibbor" has concepts associated with a Warrior, and hence the "El" portion of this is not speaking of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father but gives the sense of a strong or powerful Warrior. This word is also associated with the Name of the Angel "Gabriel", where both portions of the phrase also occur.
SolaScriptura said:

What Do Biblical Unitarians Believe? - BiblicalUnitarian.com

A list of things that Biblical Unitarians believe.
www.biblicalunitarian.com www.biblicalunitarian.com
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There are many groups that would claim the title "Unitarian". If you look up the wiki article there is firstly a major group given this title and exactly what they believe I am not certain. The group you reference above is fairly new to me, and could be small, but yes Consecrated Life this particular group "they believe Jesus was created at the moment Mary became pregnant". I am conscious of other groups that are "Unitarian", in that they believe that there is only One God, God the Father. For example JWs, Christadelphians, COGAF, Restoration Fellowship, and many of the early SDAs.

Concerning the use of Elohim for the Angels, the Angel that wrestled with Jacob is called "Elohim", and the relationship between the Angel and God Himself is interwoven into the narrative, showing that the Angel represented God on this occasion.
Genesis 32:24–30 (KJV): 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Hosea 12:2–5 (KJV): 2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. 3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: 4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us; 5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Carry_Your_Name said:
Then you're stripping the Lord of his humanity and downplaying the gravity of his suffering on the cross. That being said, I'm done passing accusations and condemnations, that's the devil's job, so I'm out, God bless.
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I am not stripping Jesus of his humanity, and you don't seem to know the name of his God.
 
CherubRam said:
The term "Godhead" is not in the original text. Your understand of scriptures does not even agree with the Trinity doctrine.
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I just quoted the verse that ses the word Godhead.

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:9

Please quote Colossians 2:9 from your Bible.


Godhead is in my Bible, how about yours?




JLB
 
JLB said:
I just quoted the verse that ses the word Godhead.

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:9

Please quote Colossians 2:9 from your Bible.


Godhead is in my Bible, how about yours?




JLB
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The Greek word in Colossians 2:9, is θεότης, which means, "Deity, the state of being God"

In Romans 1:20, the Greek word is different, θειότης, meaning, "Divine Nature, the quality pertaining to Deity, Godhead"
 
7thMoon said:
I am not stripping Jesus of his humanity, and you don't seem to know the name of his God.
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In Hebrews 1:8, God the Father addresses Jesus Christ directly:

πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος

But concerning the Son, Your Throne O God if forever and ever"

The Father addresses Jesus Christ as GOD!
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings again SolaScriptura,

Similar to how the Angels and Judges were called "Elohim".

Kind regards
Trevor
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context is always very important for word uses

In verse 6 the Father Commands Jesus Christ is Worshipped, as in the greater majority of English Versions

In verses 10-12, the Father addresses Jesus Christ as the actual Creator, from Psalm 102:24-27, addressed to ˒ĕlōhı̂m

In the Greek OT, in Psalm 45:6, from where Hebrews 1:8 is taken, it reads, ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεός, where any honest, unbiased translation, will read, "Your Throne O God", which is also how it reads in the Liberal New Revised Standard Version. The Latin Vulgate and Syriac Peshitta, have the same readings

All of this taken together, is clear that Jesus Christ is addressed as Almighty God by the Father.

Your personal theology might prevent you from accepting these facts
 
SolaScriptura said:
In Hebrews 1:8, God the Father addresses Jesus Christ directly:

πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος

But concerning the Son, Your Throne O God if forever and ever"

The Father addresses Jesus Christ as GOD!
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Incompetent. Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς means Your throne the God. ὁ Θεὸς is not vocative, it is nominative.
 
7thMoon said:
Incompetent. Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς means Your throne the God. ὁ Θεὸς is not vocative, it is nominative.
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Before you call anyone incompetent, you should learn some Greek grammar!

In John 20:28, Thomas addresses Jesus Christ, "Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου", this is in the nominative, as in Hebrews 1:8. Yet all translate this as "My Lord and my God".

From the time of Homer, and in attic, classical and koine Greek, there are MANY instances where the nominative is used for the vocative, in addresses!

The New Testament by the Unitarian, Dr George Noyes, reads: “but of the Son: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”

Another Unitarian, Dr George Winer, also admits that in Hebrews 1:8, the vocative is to be understood.

“The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking the place of the vocative…H. i.8” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.227)

The Hebrew scholar, Aquila, who published a Greek Version of the Old Testament, in the middle of the 2nd century A.D., translates the Hebrew, by the Greek, “ο θρονος σου θεε”, which is undoubtedly the vocative, “Your throne, O God”. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163)

As is the reading of another Jewish Bible, “Thy throne, O God” (Dr A Benisch; Jewish School and Family Bible, Vol.IV).

The Jehovah’s Witnesses, in both their Kingdom Interlinear New Testaments, 1969 and 1985, read in the English in the right-hand column, “God is your throne forever”. However, in the literal English translation under the Greek text, it reads: “the throne of you the God”. In the other Greek Interlinear that the JW’s publish, The Emphatic Diaglott, it is even more interesting. In verse 8, the literal English translation under the Greek text, it reads: “concerning but the Son; the throne of thee the God for the age [of the age]”. And in the English version in the right-hand column, “But to the Son, Thy Throne, O God is for the age”. And, for verse 9, “therefore thy God anointed thee, O God” (right-hand column). Both verses in this translation has the vocative.
 
7thMoon said:
Incompetent. Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς means Your throne the God. ὁ Θεὸς is not vocative, it is nominative.
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and,

Note: “This may also be translated "Y our throne, O God ('"elohim"), is everlasting" (so LXX), where the king is referred to as God. If this is taken literally, this psalm would be unique in the entire Bible in explicitly depicting the king as divine (see v. 4 and v. 18 n.), a notion that existed at times in other ancient Near Eastern cultures but is otherwise absent in biblical thought. Other modern scholars render the v. as "Your throne is like God's throne" (so already Ibn Ezra) or "Your throne is supreme." The Targum and Saadia add the words "will establish," reading "God will establish your throne," while Rashi understands "'elohim" as judges (see Exod. 21.6, translators' note). These medieval and modern translations, including NJPS (Your divine throne), make this v. fit other texts, which do not view the biblical king as divine”
(Adele Berlin and Marc Zvi Brettler The Jewish Study Bible)
 
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