˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

[7thMoon]

and,

Note: “This may also be translated "Y our throne, O God ('"elohim"), is everlasting" (so LXX), where the king is referred to as God. If this is taken literally, this psalm would be unique in the entire Bible in explicitly depicting the king as divine (see v. 4 and v. 18 n.), a notion that existed at times in other ancient Near Eastern cultures but is otherwise absent in biblical thought. Other modern scholars render the v. as "Your throne is like God's throne" (so already Ibn Ezra) or "Your throne is supreme." The Targum and Saadia add the words "will establish," reading "God will establish your throne," while Rashi understands "'elohim" as judges (see Exod. 21.6, translators' note). These medieval and modern translations, including NJPS (Your divine throne), make this v. fit other texts, which do not view the biblical king as divine”
(Adele Berlin and Marc Zvi Brettler The Jewish Study Bible)

The God is the throne.

 

[7thMoon]

Before you call anyone incompetent, you should learn some Greek grammar!

In John 20:28, Thomas addresses Jesus Christ, "Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου", this is in the nominative, as in Hebrews 1:8. Yet all translate this as "My Lord and my God".

From the time of Homer, and in attic, classical and koine Greek, there are MANY instances where the nominative is used for the vocative, in addresses!

The New Testament by the Unitarian, Dr George Noyes, reads: “but of the Son: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”

Another Unitarian, Dr George Winer, also admits that in Hebrews 1:8, the vocative is to be understood.

“The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking the place of the vocative…H. i.8” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.227)

The Hebrew scholar, Aquila, who published a Greek Version of the Old Testament, in the middle of the 2nd century A.D., translates the Hebrew, by the Greek, “ο θρονος σου θεε”, which is undoubtedly the vocative, “Your throne, O God”. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163)

As is the reading of another Jewish Bible, “Thy throne, O God” (Dr A Benisch; Jewish School and Family Bible, Vol.IV).

The Jehovah’s Witnesses, in both their Kingdom Interlinear New Testaments, 1969 and 1985, read in the English in the right-hand column, “God is your throne forever”. However, in the literal English translation under the Greek text, it reads: “the throne of you the God”. In the other Greek Interlinear that the JW’s publish, The Emphatic Diaglott, it is even more interesting. In verse 8, the literal English translation under the Greek text, it reads: “concerning but the Son; the throne of thee the God for the age [of the age]”. And in the English version in the right-hand column, “But to the Son, Thy Throne, O God is for the age”. And, for verse 9, “therefore thy God anointed thee, O God” (right-hand column). Both verses in this translation has the vocative.

What if they are wrong. It is incompetent because you are ignoring how throne would vocative too. And I will bet you sources feel the same about Greek word for throne as they do about the Greek word God. Why doesn't the Hebrew express this vocatively? Why doesn't the NT use the word θεε either?

By the way, Aquila's Greek is known to be incompetent.

 

[7thMoon]

In John 20:28, Thomas addresses Jesus Christ, "Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου", this is in the nominative, as in Hebrews 1:8. Yet all translate this as "My Lord and my God".

This is another example of incompetence with nouns. Notice how μου is doubled so that there are two objects in this incomplete sentence.

 

[SolaScriptura]

What if they are wrong. It is incompetent because you are ignoring how throne would vocative too. And I will bet you sources feel the same about Greek word for throne as they do about the Greek word God. Why doesn't the Hebrew express this vocatively? Why doesn't the NT use the word θεε either?

By the way, Aquila's Greek is known to be incompetent.

It is very clear from what you write here that you don't really understand Greek grammar

I am sorry but I can't give you any lessons here

 

[SolaScriptura]

This is another example of incompetence with nouns. Notice how μου is doubled so that there are two objects in this incomplete sentence.

Again you really talking nonsense because you don't understand Greek

 

[SolaScriptura]

The God is the throne.

Only to those who deny that Jesus Christ is Almighty God

 

[7thMoon]

It is very clear from what you write here that you don't really understand Greek grammar

I am sorry but I can't give you any lessons here

Nominative is the subject case. It is not vocative. Clearly you don't understand the grammar of Greek nouns.
Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς means his throne is God; and the ECFs thought that alone demonstrated the christ as a deity.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

Your personal theology might prevent you from accepting these facts

Perhaps we could compare my theology with my assessment of Trinitarian theology by considering a few aspects of Hebrews 1.
Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
My theology: The One God, Yahweh, God the Father has spoken through another individual, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God's Son.
Trinitarian theology: Does not agree with the language of verse 1 as this does not say "God the Father" as it only says "God".

My theology: Jesus is God's Son verse 2.
Trinitarian theology: Jesus is God the Son. This does not agree with verse 2.

My theology: Jesus is the heir of all things verse 2.
Trinitarian theology: Jesus as God the Son has always owned all things.

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV): Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
My theology: An image is a copy of the original. Jesus is a development.
Trinitarian theology: Jesus is the original.

My theology: Sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high, sitting in God the Father's Throne, quoting and alluding to Psalm 110:1.
Trinitarian theology: The Trinity cannot agree with Psalm 110:1.

Hebrews 1:4 (KJV): Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
My theology: Jesus receives an excellent name by inheritance.
Trinitarian theology: Jesus already possessed his excellent name.

Hebrews 1:5 (KJV): For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
My theology: God is THE Father, and Jesus is His Son. Jesus is begotten.
Trinitarian theology: I will let you explain this, and give the sense of "begotten", as there seems to be a range of Trinitarian opinions on "begotten", but all Trinitarian concepts deny the simple reality of these words.

context is always very important for word uses

Perhaps when we resolve the above context, we could address the later verses which you rely upon.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

The Greek word in Colossians 2:9, is θεότης, which means, "Deity, the state of being God"

In Romans 1:20, the Greek word is different, θειότης, meaning, "Divine Nature, the quality pertaining to Deity, Godhead"

Do you deny that Jesus Christ is LORD?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus is GOD, yes, but is He Yahweh?

Yes Jesus Christ is YHWH, The LORD God of the Old Testament.

I have posted the many scriptures that teach this.

Should I post them again?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes Jesus Christ is YHWH, The LORD God of the Old Testament.

I have posted the many scriptures that teach this.

Should I post them again?



JLB

Hi JLB
No, don't post them again.
Is the Holy Spirit Yahweh?

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB
No, don't post them again.
Is the Holy Spirit Yahweh?

My contextual line of discussion has been about Jesus Christ being YHWH; The Lord God.


The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of YHWH.


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10


Was God the Father crucified (pierced) on the cross, or the Son?





JLB

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings wondering and JLB,

Jesus is GOD, yes, but is He Yahweh?

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the KJV convention that in the OT both of the following in capitals "LORD" and "God" are translations of the Hebrew word "Yahweh".

Do you deny that Jesus Christ is LORD?

Yes Jesus Christ is YHWH, The LORD God of the Old Testament.

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
In the above passage I understand "LORD" represents the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. The same English word in English, but in lower case "Lord" and here David's Lord, represents our Lord Jesus Christ, a human now exalted to sit at the right hand of the One God, the Father in God the Father's Throne and Jesus did not pre-exist but is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

Perhaps we could compare my theology with my assessment of Trinitarian theology by considering a few aspects of Hebrews 1.
Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
My theology: The One God, Yahweh, God the Father has spoken through another individual, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God's Son.
Trinitarian theology: Does not agree with the language of verse 1 as this does not say "God the Father" as it only says "God".

My theology: Jesus is God's Son verse 2.
Trinitarian theology: Jesus is God the Son. This does not agree with verse 2.

My theology: Jesus is the heir of all things verse 2.
Trinitarian theology: Jesus as God the Son has always owned all things.

I find it interesting that you didn’t address the obvious:

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (ESV)

If the Father created the world through the Son, the Son necessarily existed when creation began. More than that, you stopped short. You must consider the context of Heb 1:10-12:

Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

Note that this is the Father saying these things about the Son (vs. 8). Those verses are, of course, quoted from Psalm 102:

Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)

I’m other words, the Father himself is applying the words of Psalm 102:25-27, words about Yahweh, to the Son. Which agrees with verse 2.

And both of those are in perfect agreement with John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:15-16.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

I find it interesting that you didn’t address the obvious:
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (ESV)
If the Father created the world through the Son, the Son necessarily existed when creation began. More than that, you stopped short. You must consider the context of Heb 1:10-12:

Yes, I avoided these verses, partly because I found them difficult, but I have listened to a number of Bible Class expositions and I could have transcribed one or more of these, as they would have given adequate explanations consistent with our fellowship's view. I prefer to stay within my own level of scholarship and part of this is limited language skills.

Nevertheless I offer the following explanation by one of our magazine editors for your perusal. This was later published as a small commentary, John Carter The Letter to the Hebrews page 11, 1947:
“Through whom also he made the worlds (or, as RV margin, ages).” But age must have reference to the duration of something, and provided “worlds” is rightly understood little objection can be taken to it. “Our age” is not simply our time, but covers all things done in our time. This word receives expansion and illustration in verse 10, where the Messianic world, consisting of heavens and earth,—the world to come—is in view.

Trinitarians have seen in this passage evidence that an Eternal Son was the agent through whom the universe was brought into being. But the doctrine of the Trinity is obnoxious to the plain teaching of Scripture. God is One—the Holy One of Israel. “The Lord our God is one Lord.” The doctrine of the Trinity is paganism revived and dressed out in Christian names. It was through God’s Son that the worlds were made, whether Antediluvian, Patriarchal, Mosaic, Gentile or Messianic, in the sense that in all His arrangements God had His Son in view."

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

Yes, I avoided these verses, partly because I found them difficult,

You are the first to at least admit that you found them difficult. I appreciate your honesty.

but I have listened to a number of Bible Class expositions and I could have transcribed one or more of these, as they would have given adequate explanations consistent with our fellowship's view. I prefer to stay within my own level of scholarship and part of this is limited language skills.

It’s simple hermeneutics and reasoning that apply, not language skills, apart from understanding English.

Nevertheless I offer the following explanation by one of our magazine editors for your perusal. This was later published as a small commentary, John Carter The Letter to the Hebrews page 11, 1947:
“Through whom also he made the worlds (or, as RV margin, ages).” But age must have reference to the duration of something, and provided “worlds” is rightly understood little objection can be taken to it. “Our age” is not simply our time, but covers all things done in our time. This word receives expansion and illustration in verse 10, where the Messianic world, consisting of heavens and earth,—the world to come—is in view.

Trinitarians have seen in this passage evidence that an Eternal Son was the agent through whom the universe was brought into being.

Which is exactly what it does mean, and is especially clear in John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17. The point is, as it is translated, Heb 1:10-12 is in full agreement with these passages; there is no need to come up with an alternative understanding which doesn’t make sense given that it is a quote from Psalm 102 and speaks of Yahweh.

It can’t apply one way to the Son and a different way to the Father, otherwise there is little point in quoting it from the OT.

But the doctrine of the Trinity is obnoxious to the plain teaching of Scripture. God is One—the Holy One of Israel. “The Lord our God is one Lord.”

Yes, God is one. Those are statements of monotheism only; they do not speak of the nature of God, whether he is one person or three. Every anti-Trinitarian conflates these two very different ideas and ends up quoting passages about monotheism, thinking they say something ontological about God. There is no verse in the entire Bible which clearly or directly states that God is only one person.

The doctrine of the Trinity is paganism revived and dressed out in Christian names.

And yet there is no primary source evidence of such a claim.

It was through God’s Son that the worlds were made, whether Antediluvian, Patriarchal, Mosaic, Gentile or Messianic, in the sense that in all His arrangements God had His Son in view."

Kind regards
Trevor

It was through his Son that the entire universe and space and time were created.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes Jesus Christ is YHWH, The LORD God of the Old Testament.

I have posted the many scriptures that teach this.

Should I post them again?



JLB

Jesus Christ/Yeshua Messiah is a real person in history of flesh and blood who was dead, buried and resurrected, while the "LORD God of the Old Testament" is seated on his throne in heaven the whole time. He had been described as a "person" in an anthropomorphic sense, but does that make him the same kind of person in flesh and blood? Not really. That is my take. Point is, you have to ditch this dualistic black-and-white thinking, and adopt a balanced holistic view that perceive our Lord Jesus as both man and God, a perfect union of humanity and divinity in one being.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

You are the first to at least admit that you found them difficult. I appreciate your honesty.

I am very convinced of my overall view of the One God the Father and Jesus as the Son of God. There are a number of obscure or ambiguous passages that I prefer to avoid when discussing with Trinitarians. That does not mean that I ignore them.

The following are my notes that I made in 2018 which I had added to my Bible Program.
Hebrews 1:2 (KJV): "by whom also he made the worlds"
by: dia = through or on account of whom. RV, RSV have "through". The means by which something is accomplished. He is the central, pivotal point of God's plan. Everything else revolves around him.
worlds: aion = ages or epochs of time. Companion Bible - "any given period of time, characterised by a special form of Divine administration or dispensation". e.g. the antediluvian age, the patriarchal age, ..., the Gentile age, the millennium age. All the ages, past, present and future were designed by God with Christ in mind. One suggestion "with a view to whom, He (God) made the ages".

It’s simple hermeneutics and reasoning that apply, not language skills, apart from understanding English.

I decided to check the two most recent Bible Classes given at our hall. Both series of talks more or less gave the same overall view as I mentioned from the older 1947 exposition. A senior expositor from our meeting considered the whole book of Hebrews starting in 1993 and I had previously converted the tapes into mp3. I listened and he gave a more thorough explanation, bringing out the context of Hebrews 1. The second series began in 2013 by a visiting speaker from one of the eight meetings in our area. He also gave a similar perspective. I am the librarian for our meeting and have recorded and preserved many of our talks, and nearly every meeting since 2006. I am not one of our speaking expositors.

Which is exactly what it does mean, and is especially clear in John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6

Here are two passages that I do not avoid. I understand "The Word" in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the Wise Woman "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8 who was with God in the creation. 1 Corinthians 8:6 is a key Unitarian verse which embarasses most Trinitarians, but they feel more comfortable by mentioning it in supposed support of their doctrine.

Yes, God is one. Those are statements of monotheism only; they do not speak of the nature of God, whether he is one person or three.

I understand that the first, primary meaning of Deuteronomy 6:4 is that God is One Person, and then that there is only One God in contrast to the many gods and idols of the surrounding nations. There is no hint of three persons, but One God revealed through many agents, such as Angels and Judges, both classes mentioned as "Elohim" (back to our original topic).

It was through his Son that the entire universe and space and time were created.

I believe that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator Psalm 8:1-3, Matthew 11:25-30.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[7thMoon]

The Greek word in Colossians 2:9, is θεότης, which means, "Deity, the state of being God"

It means caused and acted by a god, here specifically YHWH. The tau nouns are not masculine, or acting nouns.

In Romans 1:20, the Greek word is different, θειότης, meaning, "Divine Nature, the quality pertaining to Deity, Godhead"

This is what is modeled by God, and the iota nouns imply what is done or acted to a specific effect.

If tau nouns were acting nouns, the apostle John would be illiterate. Act 4:13 is about unrecorded and unseen men, being the apostles.

 

[GodsGrace]

My contextual line of discussion has been about Jesus Christ being YHWH; The Lord God.


The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of YHWH.


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10

The above proves that Jesus is God.
The OT also states that God HIMSELF will save us.

Daniel 6:27
"He delivers and rescues and performs signs and wonders In heaven and on earth, Who has also delivered Daniel from the power of the lions."
Ezekiel 36:11
11For thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.


Above is referring to the scattered Jews.
But God is the shepherd, and He Himself does search for His sheep when they scatter.

So, in this way, in the divine person of Jesus God, the 2nd Person of the Godhead,
it is God Jesus that saves us. So this shows that Jesus is God.

But it does not show that Jesus is the Father.
While Jesus was on earth,
Father was in heaven.

Was God the Father crucified (pierced) on the cross, or the Son?

The Son of course.