“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[Jethro Bodine]

How about if there were some among them that had believed in vain? Does that matter to you?

1 Corinthians 15:2 (AMP) By this faith you are saved reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain just superficially and without complete commitment. ​

Chessman! Are you even reading my posts!?

It matters not when a person stops believing, or if they never really believed to begin with. In any case, they do not satisfy the condition for being saved which is holding fast the word of the gospel:

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

"(U)nless you believed in vain" can mean whatever you want it to mean and it still has no effect whatsoever on the truth that you have to be presently believing in order to be presently saved.

 

[chessman]

And this proves OSAS how?

It doesn't prove OSAS. It proves Paul was speaking about multiple persons in this passage, NOT an individual. Some saved, some not. The Gospel saves! A vain gospel does not save. Never has, never will.

 

[chessman]

Chessman! Are you even reading my posts!?

Of course. Which is why I'm flabbergasted that you'd think;

It matters not when a person stops believing, or if they never really believed to begin with.

It most certainly does matter with respect to OSAS.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree.
It matters not when a person stops believing, or if they never really believed to begin with. In any case, they do not satisfy the condition for being saved which is holding fast the word of the gospel:

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

"(U)nless you believed in vain" can mean whatever you want it to mean and it still has no effect whatsoever on the truth that you have to be presently believing in order to be presently saved. This completely defeats hyper-grace OSAS which claims that even returning to unbelief can not forfeit your salvation, and it robs traditional OSAS of it's boast of security and assurance because in that doctrine you can not know you are 'really' believing unto salvation until all opportunities for your faith to be tested and proven genuine have been exhausted, which is the day you die. But by then, it's too late to do anything about it if you find that you weren't really believing unto salvation.

Traditional OSASer's are the one's that have to worry about going to bed and waking up lost, not non-OSASer's. If they die in their sleep and wake up on the other side to the horror of finding out their faith really wasn't genuine there's nothing they can do about it. In non-OSAS the person is secure and assured every moment and every second they are believing and trusting in the perfect blood of Christ. Now that's Biblical security.

Great last paragraph.
"Now that's biblical security."
AMEN.

John 3:16
My favorite, most simple, and complete.

W

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It most certainly does matter with respect to OSAS.

You're trying so hard to evade the truth that "you are saved, if you hold fast the word " (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB). When and if a person believes does not change that truth.

"(U)nless you believed in vain" does not change that truth one iota. Even if it means "unless you never believed to begin with" (which it does not according to vs.13 & 17) it does not change what Paul said that "you are saved, if you hold fast the word". It effectively defeats the so-called security and assurance of OSAS.

 

[GodsGrace]

It doesn't prove OSAS. It proves Paul was speaking about multiple persons in this passage, NOT an individual. Some saved, some not. The Gospel saves! A vain gospel does not save. Never has, never will.

This is interesting.
You mean if I'm taught something wrong by a pastor or priest or preacher, and I sincerely believe it but it's a wrong gospel, then I would be lost?

So it's not Jesus who saves, but the correct understanding of the gospel?

Do you realize that this means that if YOU are wrong re OSAS you're going straight to hell and if I'M wrong about it then I'm going straight to hell.

Do I understand you properly??


W

 

[netchaplain]

"Vain faith" is the same sense as "dead works," both of which design the intention as being nonexistent, for faith, even as small as a "mustard seed" is considered existent, which is not the expressed sense in these two examples. True faith (the word true being redundant since faith exists or it doesn't) can never become vain but rather can only grow in strength, for generally speaking most things grow or die and faith can never die, Christ being the Author and Finisher ("finisher" e.g. keeper until the end).

The Gospel can be heard and received in vain, e.g. not truly understood ans/or not truly believed in, and such is the sense "for a while believe" (Luke 8:13), for as it is written in multiple passages, only those who continue ("hold fast") "are saved" (not that this makes them saved but rather manifests they have been saved) which gives rise to the thought that discontinuing evinces disbelief. Concerning disbelief, how can it be explained to actually once believe then eventually actually disbelieve, which is nonsensical. Thus the conclusion of an actual absence of unbelief can only reveal never having actually believed. "The end justifies the means" e.g. the conclusion will not produce but show (a definition of justify) which it has been, truth or error, for it cannot be both, only one or the other (Mat 17, 18; Jam 3:11, 12).

 

[smaller]

In the eyes of some believers, faith in Christ, the simple call upon Him to save is entirely sufficient to perform and complete the task of salvation ala Romans 10:13. And these will see Jesus, entirely sufficient to both perform and complete their call unto/into Him.

For others, there is no end to the performance requirements with the eternal "or else" attached and never detached. Were we provided a single named example of the supposed eternal dire fate for believers non-performances this position would have merit. But there is actually no specifically named person example of this in the N.T. anywhere, where a fallen or the fallen are going to have that fate. There are examples of errors, of those drawing back in various ways, of divisions, heresies, etc. But in no case is this attached by name to eternal loss of salvation. It's largely surmised in the eyes of the viewers.

The scriptures regarding the surety of salvation are there to observe, and believe, beyond any question.

Colossians 2:10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Romans 4:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Abraham was so entirely convinced by faith put upon him, hearing directly from The Voice of God and subsequent engagements (who wouldn't be convinced likewise?!) that God would raise the dead, he was willing to sacrifice his own son, to see it happen. This was an "external picture" of God and His son, in a FIGURE.

Hebrews 11:
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

I'd say Abraham was exceptionally convinced of the power of God to perform His Promise.

It's understandable why some would not have a similar level of faith. Not everyone is called to the same steps as Abraham was. That's maybe a good thing. IF some are not likewise convinced, they'll just have to sweat it out to find out.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Concerning disbelief, how can it be explained to actually once believe then eventually actually disbelieve, which is nonsensical.

Ask my formerly tongue speaking wife.
I'm an honest, sincere, truth seeking believer. And one thing I've learned is the Protestant church lives in a shell. They're too afraid to think outside of what they think they are only supposed to think. You can't just ignore the plain observable truth that people who were genuinely once saved no longer believe.

Thus the conclusion of an actual absence of unbelief can only reveal never having actually believed.

I think you mean 'unbelief reveals never having actually believed'. See, the problem with this OSAS doctrine is that you can never know if what you think is genuine faith today will be shown to actually be an insincere fake faith until all opportunities to test that faith have been exhausted. And that doesn't happen until the day you die. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance? You never know if today is the day your faith gets exposed as having been false and not for real all along.

In non-OSAS, your present believing results in presently being saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB). You don't lose the security and assurance of Christ's unshakable and unmovable, perfect, and eternal ministry unless you abandon the security of that ministry through unbelief.

 

[GodsGrace]

"Vain faith" is the same sense as "dead works," both of which design the intention as being nonexistent, for faith, even as small as a "mustard seed" is considered existent, which is not the expressed sense in these two examples. True faith (the word true being redundant since faith exists or it doesn't) can never become vain but rather can only grow in strength, for generally speaking most things grow or die and faith can never die, Christ being the Author and Finisher ("finisher" e.g. keeper until the end).

The Gospel can be heard and received in vain, e.g. not truly understood ans/or not truly believed in, and such is the sense "for a while believe" (Luke 8:13), for as it is written in multiple passages, only those who continue ("hold fast") "are saved" (not that this makes them saved but rather manifests they have been saved) which gives rise to the thought that discontinuing evinces disbelief. Concerning disbelief, how can it be explained to actually once believe then eventually actually disbelieve, which is nonsensical. Thus the conclusion of an actual absence of unbelief can only reveal never having actually believed. "The end justifies the means" e.g. the conclusion will not produce but show (a definition of justify) which it has been, truth or error, for it cannot be both, only one or the other (Mat 17, 18; Jam 3:11, 12).

Others here believe as you do: That once you believe, it is impossible NOT to believe. IOW, it's impossible to abandon the love one has for God.

So how do you explain this verse:

2 Peter 2:20-22New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 it has happened to them according to the true proverb, A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”


W

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"The end justifies the means" e.g. the conclusion will not produce but show (a definition of justify) which it has been, truth or error, for it cannot be both, only one or the other (Mat 17, 18; Jam 3:11, 12).

Which is the common thinking among Protestant Christians--faith is an either/or proposition, not a weak vs. strong issue as Jesus presented it. I learned that it's extremely damaging to weak, but saved, Christians when you talk about faith in an either/or way, instead of how Christ presented it in a weak vs. strong way in the parable of the soil (Luke 8:11-15 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Others here believe as you do: That once you believe, it is impossible NOT to believe. IOW, it's impossible to abandon the love one has for God.

So how do you explain this verse:

2 Peter 2:20-22New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 it has happened to them according to the true proverb, A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”


W

He's going to tell you that they never really believed to begin with. That is the pat answer that spirit-less men introduced into the church to defend an obviously false OSAS doctrine, and which blinds the eyes of so many people in the Protestant church today. Even looking at plain words of scripture doesn't easily break the power of this indoctrination. People instantly filter everything they read in the Bible through the lens of the OSAS doctrine. It's amazing how many scriptures 'don't really mean what they say' because of the power of the OSAS indoctrination that teaches the church to ignore the plain words of scripture because they 'don't really mean what they say'. As these and other threads prove, it's not an easy task making the church see they have been deceived by a spirit of falsehood at work in the church:

"4 ...the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:4-5 NASB)

 

[chessman]

You're trying so hard to evade the truth that "you are saved, if you hold fast the word " (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB).

I believe every word of 1 Cor 15:1-2. It's a beautiful OSAS truth that Paul could have so much assurance in the Corithians' salvation to write back to them months later telling them that they are still saved, still holding fast presently (anchored in Christ) unless they had believed in a vain gospel (never anchored in the risen Christ).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe every word of 1 Cor 15:1-2. It's a beautiful OSAS truth that Paul could have so much assurance in the Corithians' salvation to write back to them months later telling them that they are still saved, still holding fast presently (anchored in Christ) unless they had believed in a vain gospel (never anchored in the risen Christ).

How does the condition that "you are saved if you hold fast the word" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB) prove OSAS? What it does prove is you are saved only if you are also believing. That completely destroys hyper-grace OSAS altogether, and does not prove in any way shape or form that a person can not stop believing in the gospel as traditional OSAS insists. It doesn't guarantee tomorrow will not expose what you think today is your saving faith as being false (because it failed).

 

[smaller]

IF we've received Gods Grace and Mercy in Christ, then we are likewise inclined to "all" other people, especially to believers, even to a fault, erring on the most generous sides of the equations, by that which we received from Him. It is Him in us, by faith, after all, however slightly that may be perceived by anyone who has faith. IF God Himself took the accounting of sin away from us, we could see the futility of accounting. NOT that accounting can not be done by any means. There are avenues of judgments that are credible and legitimate in the scriptural discourse that will NOT land on dragging any believer unto eternal torture. We do have spiritual opponents, unseen, in our current state of affairs. These should always be in view in these matters of judgment/discourses. Yes, believers can be again taken captive in this present life by our spiritual adversaries. This does not equate to God abandoning them any more than it would equate to God abandoning unbelieving Israel, because that did not happen. Romans 11:1-2.

Nevertheless there are stingy, very stingy and very ungracious views within christianity in general, between ourselves in particular.

There is a principle Divine that is a real operation in this present world that God Himself has set. IF we hope and desire only the best, even the Perfect for ourselves, THEN it is best for our own hearts, and our own good, to extend that to others. In this way we do obtain MORE LIGHT from our Heavenly Father.

Stingy Grace and Mercy simply has no appeal to anyone. It is judgmental, fault finding, counting sins, never being able to come into Perfection. Always hung with the burdens of unattainable performances.

The Golden Rule is Divinely Golden, and will ever be so.

There is reason to use caution for how we measure. IF we have forgiveness of sins, then we GIVE forgiveness to others. IF we have mercy, then we get Mercy. IF we do not want to be judged adversely, then we do not judge others adversely. IF we do not want condemnation, then we do not condemn.

This is how God Himself has set things up. And those who draw back from this direction, WILL get what they seek by not doing so. They will be drawn further and further BACKWARDS. I do not say these would not be saved however, because this does violate the rule that God has established. But there are variations in how believers walk these matters out in real life.

IF believers seek to understand judgments, and they follow the Golden Rule, they will be shown how this can be achieved.

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

This may sound quite simple on the surface, but as reality shows, it isn't. Many fall into the traps of judgment, condemnation and unforgiveness. I'd dare say "all" fall into this trap at some point in their walks of faith. Whether they ever come out or not in this present life proves to not be the case in most cases.

Some do though, because it's a wonderful place for our own hearts to abide. I don't believe other believers are saved for their sake, but for my own heart. I simply do not want to be found in the adverse judgment chair because I don't want that chair put upon myself.

It is there to leap into however. And it is a TRAP for the heart, showing evil present therein, and hypocrisy is a real matter of spiritual adversity, internal. Purposefully set for the evil in man's heart to leap headlong into.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think it started round about the time the form of reasoning came in that says Jesus never leaves us but we can leave Him and the reasoning didn't make much sense to some believers.

The reasoning that we can leave Him has ALWAYS been in the church from the beginning of Christianity.
Because it doesn't make sense to some doesn't mean it's not correct. I tend to trust Acquinas and others more than I trust John Calvin.

Believe what you want. If you think Jesus can lose you no one is about to tell you differently. Don't expect others to agree with circular logic.

Believing what the bible says is circular reasoning?
You sound like an atheist Smaller.

Who is "us?" Church splits were happening long before Calvin, over a lot less.

"Us" is we Christians who believe Jesus is God and died as atonement for our sins, was raised again, and is our example and salvation.

There have been other heresies just as serious. For example an early heresy was adoptionism, 190 AD, arianism about 250 AD, Donatism about 300 AD, Pelagianism about 400 AD.
These, and more, could be googled.

I find Calvin's theories to have split the church in two and has caused much damage. The early church was able to stop heresies because it had a central power - Rome - Calvin appeared at the Reformation and his heresy was not easily stopped since Protestantism did not have a central authority or power.

I'd hardly blame Calvin for picking up the scriptures and reading this:

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

How freewillers missed it, I have no idea.

Those whom God has had His Mercy put upon them, also declare His Mercy unto others. But they probably also understand that God also hardeneth whom He will, regardless.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

or not.

God is sovereign and will do what He will to do. If He wills that Judas should betray Jesus then so be it, if He
wills that Pharaoh have a hard heart, so be it. It is God's choosing.

Does this mean that He directs each and every movement of our lives and of the world? No. That would require constant miracles and constant intervention by Him. God set up a world system - the system functions as He so willed it and He does not interfere at every moment. We either have free will or we do not.

I believe we do.


W

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe every word of 1 Cor 15:1-2. It's a beautiful OSAS truth that Paul could have so much assurance in the Corithians' salvation to write back to them months later telling them that they are still saved, still holding fast presently (anchored in Christ) unless they had believed in a vain gospel (never anchored in the risen Christ).

Chessman,
If Paul was happy that the Corinthians were HOLDING FAST,
Does it mean that they could LET GO??

What does it mean to you to hold fast?

W

 

[chessman]

Even if it means "unless you never believed to begin with" (which it does not according to vs.13 & 17)

Clearly it means there were some among them that believed in a vain (un-salvific) gospel and were thusly never saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Clearly it means there were some among them that believed in a vain (un-salvific) gospel and were thusly never saved.

And this means OSAS is true how?
Are you still beating the old drum that all people who used to believe but who don't believe now never 'really' believed to begin with? If so, how is that the doctrine of security and assurance, the subject of this thread?

 

[smaller]

The reasoning that we can leave Him has ALWAYS been in the church from the beginning of Christianity.

We've covered this before. There is no "escape" for anyone, especially believers. Hebrews 12:25. God in Christ came to save the fallen and the captives of our spiritual adversaries. That effort will not cease on Christ's part, ever, until the exercise of this current domain is finished.

We never had the battle on our hands to start with, unto success. The Victory is His, Alone, and us in Him.

Because it doesn't make sense to some doesn't mean it's not correct.

Speaking from a position of reasoning, leaving Him and Him not leaving us can not compute whatsoever. IF He never leaves us, then He never leaves us. And no, there is no escape.

I might observe it to be this way. A believer is again blinded by the devil in their own mind and heart. God will have His Ways dealing adversely both with that person's flesh and with the adversary, hardening them in ever dire straits. God really is dealing with TWO separate components in these issues and two separate entities, who both happen to be occupying the same locale, that is "the flesh."

Seeing only a believer is not the only sight available, IF we can see it:

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I might even view that those who "think" they can be lost of their own accord are not seeing what may be happening in them. They and their will is NOT the only component in these matters.

I tend to trust Acquinas and others more than I trust John Calvin.

I'd be the last person to be a Calvin promoter. I think Calvin has legitimate sights to a point, but vastly illegitimate on many counts. His views are like any other. Subject to verifications by Word, written. IF his views can't stand, then they don't and won't.

Believing what the bible says is circular reasoning?

Depends on what people think they see.

You sound like an atheist Smaller.

Because I don't see like you? That's hardly a measure.

"Us" is we Christians who believe Jesus is God and died as atonement for our sins, was raised again, and is our example and salvation.

There is a common fault among freewillers, and it is this: That we, of our own freewill and our own works, can be exactly the same as Jesus if we do (whatever.) That isn't the case, never was the case, never will be the case. We can only be exactly LIKE Him by Him Alone making it so, as Phil. 3:21 shows us. Freewill, from my observations, has a futile quest on their "sole" efforts postures.

There have been other heresies just as serious. For example an early heresy was adoptionism, 190 AD, arianism about 250 AD, Donatism about 300 AD, Pelagianism about 400 AD.
These, and more, could be googled.

I'd say any sect that sets itself up as thee sole purveyors of all truth, never challengable, has lost their way and does not see themselves for what they are. IF for example the early church fathers saw, I very much believe correctly, the matters of the Trinity, which I accept in totality, BUT THEN ended up cutting out the tongues of those they disagreed with and performing every manner of ill treatment to others, whatever knowledge they think they gained in that first part was entirely lost on them in their actions, imho. Right knowledge coupled with what these sect(s) did is a shame upon all of christianity. I'm not naming sects here. Many sects are "guilty" as all get out in a similar way. We're just more "polite" about it today. But the friction remains, regardless, internally.

I find Calvin's theories to have split the church in two and has caused much damage.

Like I said, even determinists have differences with Calvins postures.

The early church was able to stop heresies because it had a central power - Rome - Calvin appeared at the Reformation and his heresy was not easily stopped since Protestantism did not have a central authority or power.

Calvin did more of a split within Protestantism, between "freewill" and "determinism" than what earlier reformers did. But what Calvin saw in the scriptures was there to be seen long before Calvin showed up to point out the obvious.

God is sovereign and will do what He will to do. If He wills that Judas should betray Jesus then so be it, if He
wills that Pharaoh have a hard heart, so be it. It is God's choosing.

Absolutely that was the case. And Judas was not just Judas in that engagement. What Judas did was written of LONG before Judas was even born. Judas couldn't have done one single thing about it, by his own freewill, because it was written and determined beforehand by God Himself.

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

And again, if we are seeing only Judas, we're just not looking. Judas demonstrates in the above, a Divine Principle that Jesus taught:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

The above state is what every last one of us is born into, in the flesh. Eph. 2:2. Romans 11:32.

Believers who see only a freestanding individual with their own will is actually being blinded to scriptural reality by the other party involved. And this too serves Gods Purposes in JUDGMENTS.

Does this mean that He directs each and every movement of our lives and of the world? No.

I believe God Himself Directs everything that transpires in His creation, and that everything that ever has transpired, does transpire and ever will transpire was in His Mind and Domain, always. He did not just make a clock and walk away from it to see if it would run.

Whatever happens on earth is in fact ALL in His Plan and His Mind. Nothing was hidden or a mystery to HIM and never will this be the case. So, yeah, I'm a hyper determinist in this way: Every 'thing' that is or exists or ever will exist or ever did exist, serves His Sole Purposes.