- Nov 23, 2012
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Oh, right, Peter, the first pope.
I should have known.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)
- Thread starter netchaplain
- Start date
I should have known.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
- Dec 26, 2015
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What does the Pope have to do with this?
I'm not even Catholic.
Peter said to Jesus:
"Lord, TO WHOM shall we go? [ONLY] YOU have the words of eternal life". NASB
John 6:68
Do you believe that only Jesus has the words that give life to our spirit?
Then to whom else would we ever go?
Why would we ever leave the one who has the words of life?
Does this mean that it's not possible??
W
- Nov 23, 2012
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It sounds like you are raising your voice to me.
there's no reason to get excited.
I'm sure it's not the first time you've been wrong.
You have a catholic mind.
You think like a catholic.
You talk like a catholic.
You believe some things like a catholic.
These things don't disappear over night.
You see, you've been an Italian catholic whereas I was an Irish catholic.
We are not going to agree on everything.
So just give a little and we'll be fine.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
- Dec 26, 2015
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Oh. You confess to being a little bit Catholic too?!
Must be in the DNA.
Just in case you don't know, I'm never wrong.
So just give a little and we'll be fine.
Lovingly in Christ,
Wondering
Jim Parker
Member
- Apr 17, 2015
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That is patently false.
Cite their Gnosticism. Exactly what did Justin Martyr, Tatian, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen write that is a clear example of their alleged "invention of Gnosticism."
Is absurdly and laughably, full of baloney. (AS one might expect from a KJ-Onlyist)
IT was the early church fathers who made sure that Gnosticism did NOT contaminate the apostolic teaching.
Jethro Bodine
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- Oct 31, 2011
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Paul himself tells us what "unless you believed in vain" means:
"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)
He isn't saying, 'you are saved if you hold fast the word, unless you didn't really believe to begin with'. But, obviously, you aren't saved if you didn't 'really' believe to begin with. What he's saying is exactly what he himself says it means right in the passage:
"2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."
13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."
(1 Corinthians 15:2,13 NASB)
He's telling them, if Christ is not risen, they have been standing and holding fast to a gospel he preached to them that is unable to save them from perishing in their sins....they have believed in vain. If Christ really didn't rise from the dead as Paul preached, and which they believed, they have believed Paul's gospel message in vain, because it 1) isn't true, and 2) that's a gospel that can't save.
But, as I've explained several times, even if he meant, 'you are saved, unless you didn't really believe to begin with', that does not change the condition in the passage for salvation that 'you are presently saved if you presently believe'. No one yet has even attempted to answer how a person not really believing in the first place makes it so present believing is NOT the condition for presently being saved for those who really did believe.
Jim Parker
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The "They didn't really believe" line is circular reasoning. Rather than "proving" the OSAS false doctrine, it demonstrates that the proponent actually has no proof at all.
smaller
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- Oct 23, 2003
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Let's face a little fact about the non-OSAS crowd.
They all fear for their own hides. Therefore they serve out of fear for self. And they claim this is love, when it is in fact fear that they will be eternally tormented if they don't do (whatever it is that they must do to avoid this fate, the lists can be endless.)
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
How many of the non OSAS crowd would still serve God in Christ if they didn't think God in Christ was always dangling them over the pit of hell to extract their services?
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Jethro Bodine
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Love for God is not the condition that solicits justification. Though one would certainly love God, to one degree or another, based on the weight of sin they were forgiven. Jesus teaches this truth in Luke 7:47 NASB:
"...her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”
Having your sins forgiven through faith in the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ for your sin is what justifies/saves. How much you love is the result of that justification/salvation. People who are very cognizant and appreciative of the sin they have been forgiven love God a lot. For those whom the forgiveness of God they received is not so big a deal, well, they love little.
But the bottom line is, love for God is not what determines if you are saved or not. But it does indicate if you are saved, and to what extent you understand and appreciate the sin that God has forgiven for you.
smaller
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- Oct 23, 2003
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There is also a common element found in all non-OSAS mindsets. It is this:
That God is in need of things from us, and if He doesn't "get them," whatever it is they think God needs from them, then bad things await for those who don't give God what He needs.
I do not believe scripture teaches that God is in need of anything.
Acts 17:
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Do we really have anything that God needs? As though we can give the Lord of all creation anything? This is not only unlikely, but not possible. Is God really in need of "our services?"
He Is The Giver. We are receivers. No, we don't have a single thing that God needs from us. He was before this world started, already Perfect, can not be "improved on" by us, nor is He changed by what we have or don't have, and will remain so, Perfect, after the present exercises of this wicked evil generation is finished.
The best that can be said of any believer is that we are partial reflectors of His giving. How much we might actually reflect is also entirely up to God Himself. God is not held hostage or held under ransom or becomes indebted to us by what any man (supposedly) has to give Him, because no such thing exists.
That God is in need of things from us, and if He doesn't "get them," whatever it is they think God needs from them, then bad things await for those who don't give God what He needs.
I do not believe scripture teaches that God is in need of anything.
Acts 17:
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Do we really have anything that God needs? As though we can give the Lord of all creation anything? This is not only unlikely, but not possible. Is God really in need of "our services?"
He Is The Giver. We are receivers. No, we don't have a single thing that God needs from us. He was before this world started, already Perfect, can not be "improved on" by us, nor is He changed by what we have or don't have, and will remain so, Perfect, after the present exercises of this wicked evil generation is finished.
The best that can be said of any believer is that we are partial reflectors of His giving. How much we might actually reflect is also entirely up to God Himself. God is not held hostage or held under ransom or becomes indebted to us by what any man (supposedly) has to give Him, because no such thing exists.
Mike
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- Mar 13, 2010
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Just a reminder to some of you that the A&T has Guidelines that call for a particular format, particularly when you dispute someone's position. Short replies without scriptural references don't cut it. Please read the link I provided and try to adhere to it.
ezra
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- Sep 17, 2012
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have you ever listened to love worth finding program adrain rogers ? if not i suggest you do and yes he believes in eternal security . if you would listen to his preaching you would have a hard time knowing he was southern baptist. while i look at eternal security in a much different way than most. to say the eternal security doctrine is false is very wrong. nothing wrong with disagreeing and believing the way you do. i will be the first to say you have that right. not every one who believes in osas. believes in living how they want/ they practice it live it breath
chessman
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- Feb 5, 2013
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I know. I posted it.
1 Corinthians 15:12, 14, 17 (LEB) ... some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
Now with every head lowered and every eye closed, if you believed Christ has NOT been raised will you just quietly slip your hand up so I can see you? Every eye closed now....
Thank you for that. Thank you. I see you in the back. Thank you. I see you on the left. Thank you. Anyone else believe Christ has not been raised? Last chance!
Okay then, To everyone that raised your hand just now, congratulations. You have just now believed in vain and your faith also is worthless and you are still in your sins. Have a good night.
Correct. I didn't say he was. What makes you (and/or the others that think I said that) think I did say they didn't really believe to begin with? Obviously some among them truly believed Christ had NOT been raised else Paul wouldn't have said so himself.
Paul, not me, says some truly believed Christ did not rise from the dead. These did truly believe. They just truly and sincerely believed in vain. Just as Paul says some did. And it thusly never saved them, just like the passage states.
You can repeat this as many times as you like. It's never going to change the fact that Paul said some there among them believed Christ had not been raised and thus their faith was worthless.
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Jethro Bodine
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Paul himself says they believed the gospel he first preached to them, which included a risen savior. This matter of there being no resurrection crept in later. He's pointing out to them that if that is true, that there is no resurrection of the dead, then the believing they have done in his gospel has been in vain. But since Christ is risen from the dead, and that is the gospel they "received, in which also you stand" (1 Corinthians 15:1 NASB) they are indeed very saved. There is no 'maybe' about their salvation. Paul plainly says they are saved. And for the point of this thread, they have the assurance of that salvation as long as they are presently believing. They are presently saved IF they presently believe:
"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)
This means the hyper-grace version of OSAS is altogether false (you can not stop believing and still be saved), and leaves traditional OSAS as the least secure and assured of OSAS doctrines because you will never know if your faith is genuine and able to save until all opportunities to test it and show otherwise have been exhausted. IOW, you won't know your faith is genuine until you die, when you wake up in the presence of Jesus, or away from him. But of course it's too late to do anything about that then. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security?
Biblical security and assurance is you believe now, you are saved now, and enjoy all the benefits of security and assurance of that salvation. If you fall away from grace you fall away from the security and assurance of God's salvation.
"17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position." (2 Peter 3:17 NASB)
chessman
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Paul says some among them (not all mind you but some) believed that Christ had not been risen because they didn't believe in any resurrection. Christ's or theirs or anyone else. Plain as day in the Scripture. It's really obvious. Thus Paul tells the Corithians they are saved unless you believed (past tense) in vain (i.e. you are one of those among them that believed Christ was not raised) in 1 Cor 15:1-2.
You have presented zero Scriptural evidence that the whole Corithian town once believed in Christ's resurrection then some slowly began to believe He didn't rise. That's just your strident anti-OSAS bias preventing you from reading this section of Scriptire with an open mind to allowing it to say what it does say versus what you'd like it to say. "Unless you believed in vain" is, has been and always will be a past tense verb indicating a one time past event in the Greek. If Paul had meant they slowly became unbelievers he would have used a different Greek word.
We can see that these "some" among them had no concept of resurrection in the question;
1 Corinthians 15:35 (LEB) But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?”
Crept in by who? Someone who once believed in resurrection then changed their mind or by someone who never believed in resurrection?
smaller
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- Oct 23, 2003
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Exactly. Paul uses the fulcrum point of "true" Christianity, that being "the resurrection" of Jesus AND the promise of resurrection for believers as a basis of exposition of numerous matters of interest in 1 Cor. 15. It was not a fulcrum of teaching non-OSAS, but an exposition of Spiritual understanding.
Holding fast to the Word or to the Gospel can mean and encompass a lot of things, meanings, Words. Technically, when we "hold fast" to the Gospel, we "hold fast" to every Word of God. We understand for example, from Heb. 12:4, that "The Word" is both Alive and Active. That Word is Jesus, the Living Word.
The Word tells us everything we need to know. And The Word reveals many things to us, about ourselves. Some things, unpleasant. Do we "hold fast" to them?
Maybe we just hold fast to the Words we are inclined to hear? And discard the Words we don't like or care to hear.
Taking on the whole counsel of God in Christ, in His Words, is a life long venture, for "some." But we should understand that there are different levels of pursuit or following the Word. Some (well all believers technically) for example are "congregation." Some, continuing on are disciples. Some, continuing on are teachers. Some, continuing on are prophets or Apostles. (I don't know if I've really met any, not that I'm aware of anyway.)
But there are different stages of "growth." As God Sees Fit and Directs. None of us should be led to cast down the faith, however small, of anyone. Or to cast stumbling blocks in their ways. It might seem to me that not encouraging people in their faith, and rather, telling them that by their own power, they MUST pursue or else, is a stumbling block that does not TRUST God in Christ to lead them all.
I trust God in Christ leads all believers, however faint, however strong. To attempt to cast them down is simply not an option. We all should have more faith in Christ to lead us all, however small of steps we take. These steps are not directed by "the believer" but our Maker.
In Christ we are led to make FOLLOWERS, disciples, of Christ. Why would we take any such and cast them aside, or threaten them? The intent is unto eternal life. A non-OSAS view heads in the opposite direction. We don't look back.
Let's look at what Jesus Does:
Isaiah 42:16
And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight.
These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
smaller
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If there is a detraction in "hyper grace" claims, it is that we no longer have to seek Gods Mercy and Grace in Christ, because, they claim, we already have everything we need "in Him." Therefore, to some in such camps, seeking MORE Grace or seeking MORE Mercy is a sin of unbelief, by thinking we do not have "it all" in Him.
I don't think that message rings true, if that's what they claim.
1 Cor. 15:
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
And who are these?
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
And why are we in this state? Paul defines our current state, here:
1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
We are all led, pressed if you will, groan in these states, longing for this:
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Psalm 102:
19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the Lord behold the earth;
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;
Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Galatians 5:5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
When we are turned from this world, to Gods Grace and Mercy in Christ, we do not look back, but press forward, following Him. Don't chuck your fellow believers off the cliff. We all have the identical issues, the same longings, the same goal.
I don't think that message rings true, if that's what they claim.
1 Cor. 15:
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
And who are these?
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
And why are we in this state? Paul defines our current state, here:
1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
We are all led, pressed if you will, groan in these states, longing for this:
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Psalm 102:
19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the Lord behold the earth;
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;
Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Galatians 5:5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
When we are turned from this world, to Gods Grace and Mercy in Christ, we do not look back, but press forward, following Him. Don't chuck your fellow believers off the cliff. We all have the identical issues, the same longings, the same goal.
Jethro Bodine
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You are the one straining to make 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB an OSAS passage. It doesn't matter to non-OSAS whether a person never 'really' believed to begin with, or stopped believing later. It doesn't change the fact that "you are saved, if you hold fast the word" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB). Both, the one who never 'really' believed to begin with, and the person who stops believing are among those who are not presently holding fast the word of the gospel, and as a result they are not presently saved. So, this latching onto "unless you believed in vain" in order to make the passage an OSAS passage is futile. It has no bearing on the fact that you have to be presently believing to be presently saved.
Other apostles:
"3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. 5For I consider myself not in the least inferior to the most eminent apostles." (2 Corinthians 11:3-5 NASB)
This is what he was talking about in the 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 passage about how the worker in the building of God has to be careful how he builds. Some workers, like the apostles being spoken of above, are building 'blocks' into the building of God that will not pass through the coming Fire of Judgment because they are building with a false gospel that can not save They have no reward for their labor. And they may well be destroyed themselves for destroying the temple of God.
smaller
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- Oct 23, 2003
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Do you really believe we have an entirely cooperative venture on our hands? We come, built in, with resistance to the things of God in Christ. No work can "eliminate" the obvious issues of the flesh, nor will these "things" cooperate or "earn their way" past the Pearly Gates:
Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
No man, by works, eliminates the above contentions that we have built into this body of death. Not by works, not by might, not by will.
Whatever "works" we do, we do in a factual state of "internal contrariness" that can not be removed by man.
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
No one, by all the works we can muster, by force of will, by force of efforts, will ever make themselves sinless.
Not all of what we presently are will be moving on. Nor will any work make it otherwise.
We bear, each of us, a body of death in this present life with evil present therein and sin dwelling therein that is working, actively AGAINST the Spirit.
That determination is not changing for any man by any works.
Jethro Bodine
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The point being, which you have missed completely, they didn't start out that way.
But as I say, at what point a person does not believe has no bearing on the truth in the passage that you have to be presently believing to be presently saved.
"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)