“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[JLB]

Not everyone has faith?
Romans 12:3;

Every man who hears God's word has faith.

It's what they do with it that makes the difference.

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. Romans 12:3

...each one has been given a measure of faith by God.

The context being, "each one" being among those who have faith... have been given a measure of faith.


JLB

 

[netchaplain]

Not everyone has faith?

Amen, most won't (Mat 7:13, 14).

Every man who hears God's word has faith.
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. Romans 12:3

...each one has been given a measure of faith by God.

The context being, "each one" being among those who have faith... have been given a measure of faith.
JLB

I agree with Rollo here because "all men have not faith" e.g. "for not all have faith" which is the most used rendering. So I think "each one a measure of faith" is in reference to "according to each who have been given a measure of faith." "think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" (KJV). "think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith." (NKJV). "in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you" (NLT).

 

[GodsGrace]

Just making the point that the phrase "immediately receive it with gladness" does not mean they received faith from it but received joy in the hearing of it for whatever reason.

Thanks for your laborious input!

You quoted scripture with no comment.
I agree with all scripture.

And how about answering my post no. 246?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

What does RECEIVED it mean to you?
They RECEIVED the message of salvation, which is what Paul was preaching, with joy.

This is what RECEIVE means:

To accept something that is offered to you.
To take into your own hands as a possession.
To get something.
To hold.
To let into the mind.
To accept as true or valid.
To let into one's house.
To accept a condition.

They received the message with joy for a while
The had faith = They were saved.

If you abandon the message and lose faith how could you still be saved if it requires faith to be saved?

Again I'll post 2 Peter 2:20-22

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Not everyone has faith?
Romans 12:3;

Hi Rollo,

Romans 12:3 is not referring to saving faith.

It's referring to the measure of faith that God gives to each one of us to be able to have the capability and the strength to do whatever work he wants us to do.

Romans 12 is speaking to the life of service that we owe both to the church and to each other as Christians and also to non-Christians when we come across them and can offer help.

It's speaking about the members the church has and how we do not all have the same function. God gives to each a measure of faith to be able to do that function.

We have gifts given to us that differ according to the grace given us. Almost the whole chapter is referring to service. 12:3 is referring to the faith needed to do the service. One already HAS saving faith if he is in the Church, he now needs faith to do what God wishes him to do.

W

 

[chessman]

Clearly it means there were some among them that believed in a vain (un-salvific) gospel and were thusly never saved.

And this means OSAS is true how?

It means 1 Cor 15:1-2 is NOT an anti-OSAS passage. I am assured in that.

Are you still beating the old drum that all people who used to believe but who don't believe now never 'really' believed to begin with?

Lawyer speak; 'All people who used to believe...never believed'.
I believe what Paul said. Mind you, without deleting the last part "unless you believed in vain". He never mentions a person who 'used to believe' in the True Gospel.
He mentions some who believed in the true Gospel and some that did not.
If that's 'beating an old drum' to you then, yes, I beat an old drum.

If so, how is that the doctrine of security and assurance, the subject of this thread?

It's like John says;

1 John 5:13 (LEB) These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. ​

You who believe, you have Eternal Life.
Paul adds;
You who believed in vain (believed Christ has not risen), you are still in your sins.

That's assuring to me because I most definitely believed Christ has risen when I became saved. And always will.

 

[JLB]

Amen, most won't (Mat 7:13, 14).


I agree with Rollo here because "all men have not faith" e.g. "for not all have faith" which is the most used rendering. So I think "each one a measure of faith" is in reference to "according to each who have been given a measure of faith." "think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" (KJV). "think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith." (NKJV). "in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you" (NLT).

I guess you didn't understand what I wrote, as I probably didn't make myself clear in what I was wanting to convey.

Point number one:

Every man who hears God's word has faith.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word [rhema] of God. Romans 10:17


Point number two:

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. Romans 12:3

...each one has been given a measure of faith by God.

The context being, "each one" being among those who have faith... have been given a measure of faith.


This means that everyone among the brethren... has a measure of faith.

As far as those who are, outside we don't know who does or doesn't have faith.

A person can have faith, but not act on it, in which they still have faith, but it's dead, or inactive.

We just don't know who among those who are outside, and not yet a part of the Church, that God has or has not spoken to.

Whether it be by dream or vision, or whatever way God has chosen to communicate to them.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

It's like John says;

1 John 5:13 (LEB) These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. ​

You see Chessman, you do know the rule of salvation.
You state it yourself up above.

These things I have written TO YOU WHO BELIEVE in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may
know that YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

You believe, you have eternal life.
You don't beleive, you don't have eternal life.

And the unbelief could happen both before, or after, one is saved if he decides to stop believing.

It's so easy.

W
Still no reply to 2 Peter 2:20-22...

 

[chessman]

If Paul was happy that the Corinthians were HOLDING FAST,

I believe the passage clearly indicates that Paul (months after visiting Corinth) was still sure that those who were "holding fast" were being saved. And furthermore, why. Because those who believed Christ had risen did not believe a vain Gospel. They believed a powerful/purposeful Gospel. One anchored squarely upon Jesus being the Christ, The risen God-Man

the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved,​

Does it mean that they could LET GO??

No, it doesn't 'mean' that. In theroy, sure. But I note Paul doesn't say that some had 'let go'. He says some had believed (past tense, single event) in a un-risen Christ. Don't get me wrong, I do understand how this passage, in theory, could lead someone to theorize that people could 'let go' of a true salvific belief. But the technical fact is, the passage doesn't say anything about 'letting go'. Evidently Paul did too so he qualified his statement with "unless you believed in vain". Which is why that qualification is often left out by anti-OSAS posters.

What does it mean to you to hold fast?

Hopefully (that's my goal anyway) it means to me the same thing it meant to Paul.

The Greek word is really based upon a nautical term. As in the anchor is "holding fast". If you've done much boating, you know how important it is that the anchor is "set firm". If it slips hold because it really wasn't set firmly to begin with during the night or when someone is not paying attention, you are in trouble.

[I ONCE made a SCUBA dive with just me and a buddy on the boat. Came up 20 minutes later and you guessed it, the Boat was gone and us 10 miles out in the Gulf of Mexico. It took me 2 hours to catch up to the boat as it drug anchor in the wind. Pretty lucky really to have caught it. My buddy gave up swimming and let me go get the boat. I had to go back and get him.]

The point is though, the anchor was never "holding fast", else the boat would have been there when I surfaced. Paul knew the in's/out's of boat anchoring.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe the passage clearly indicates that Paul (months after visiting Corinth) was still sure that those who were "holding fast" were being saved. And furthermore, why. Because those who believed Christ had risen did not believe a vain Gospel. They believed a powerful/purposeful Gospel. One anchored squarely upon Jesus being the Christ, The risen God-Man

the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved,​

No, it doesn't 'mean' that. In theroy, sure. But I note Paul doesn't say that some had 'let go'. He says some had believed (past tense, single event) in a un-risen Christ. Don't get me wrong, I do understand how this passage, in theory, could lead someone to theorize that people could 'let go' of a true salvific belief. But the technical fact is, the passage doesn't say anything about 'letting go'. Evidently Paul did too so he qualified his statement with "unless you believed in vain". Which is why that qualification is often left out by anti-OSAS posters.


Hopefully (that's my goal anyway) it means to me the same thing it meant to Paul.

The Greek word is really based upon a nautical term. As in the anchor is "holding fast". If you've done much boating, you know how important it is that the anchor is "set firm". If it slips hold because it really wasn't set firmly to begin with during the night or when someone is not paying attention, you are in trouble.

[I ONCE made a SCUBA dive with just me and a buddy on the boat. Came up 20 minutes later and you guessed it, the Boat was gone and us 10 miles out in the Gulf of Mexico. It took me 2 hours to catch up to the boat as it drug anchor in the wind. Pretty lucky really to have caught it. My buddy gave up swimming and let me go get the boat. I had to go back and get him.]

The point is though, the anchor was never "holding fast", else the boat would have been there when I surfaced. Paul knew the in's/out's of boat anchoring.

The anchor didn't hold.
The boat floated away.

We must hold fast, or we will also float away.
You made a remark on a different post to which I wanted to reply.
I understand you believe in free will. Is this correct?

 

[JLB]

I believe the passage clearly indicates that Paul (months after visiting Corinth) was still sure that those who were "holding fast" were being saved.

Yes, agreed.

Those who were holding fast were saved, and were being saved.

JLB

 

[chessman]

And the unbelief could happen both before, or after, one is saved if he decides to stop believing.

In theory, sure. My point is, 1 Cor 15:1-2 doesn't describe someone in unbelief after they believed in Christ risen. It describes some holding fast in belief of a risen Christ and some among them who never believed in a risen Christ.

It's easy.

Also, no usage of "unbelief" occurs in the Bible in reference to someone who once believed in the true Gospel then stopped believing. I know that's an extremely 'hard to believe' claim, but I've looked/searched. It's true.

Still no reply to 2 Peter 2:20-22...

??? Did you ask me to reply to this verse?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Rollo,

Romans 12:3 is not referring to saving faith.

It's referring to the measure of faith that God gives to each one of us to be able to have the capability and the strength to do whatever work he wants us to do.

Romans 12 is speaking to the life of service that we owe both to the church and to each other as Christians and also to non-Christians when we come across them and can offer help.

It's speaking about the members the church has and how we do not all have the same function. God gives to each a measure of faith to be able to do that function.

We have gifts given to us that differ according to the grace given us. Almost the whole chapter is referring to service. 12:3 is referring to the faith needed to do the service. One already HAS saving faith if he is in the Church, he now needs faith to do what God wishes him to do.

W

Now you confuse me.
How many different types of faith are there in the Bible?

 

[GodsGrace]

Now you confuse me.
How many different types of faith are there in the Bible?

There is saving faith. The faith you have in Christ and His finished work that leads to salvation.

There are other types of faith. If you get in an elevator, you have faith that it'll take you to the floor you want to go to. This is not saving faith.

The people in Romans 12:3 already HAVE saving faith. They need faith to do the work God called them for in their church. It could mean faith in their knowledge and experience of the Christian "religion". I have faith that Christ died for me, but I also have to have faith, for example, in the Apostles- that their teachings are correct for instance.

W

 

[chessman]

which I wanted to reply.
I understand you believe in free will. Is this correct?

Yes. As long as what you mean by "free will" does not exclude external influences such as The Holy Spirit's influence upon every believer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. As long as what you mean by "free will" does not exclude external influences such as The Holy Spirit's influence upon every believer.

OK. Free will can include the influence of the Holy Spirit. Praise to God for this.

I need someone to explain to me how you could have free will but then believe you cannot loose your salvation.
No one has explained this to me ever.

If I have free will that means I can choose to be saved, right?
Then why can I not choose to decide that I don't want to serve God any longer? (which would mean I no longer have faith and am no longer saved).

IOW, does my being saved, take away my free will?

W

 

[JLB]

The point is though, the anchor was never "holding fast", else the boat would have been there when I surfaced. Paul knew the in's/out's of boat anchoring.

...having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. 1 Timothy 1:19-20

These were delivered back under Satan's dominion, because very likely they had blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

Not a good place to be.


rejected - Strong's G683 - apōtheō

1. to thrust away, push away, repel
2. to thrust away from one's self, to drive away from one's self
   1. repudiate, reject, refuse

This man Hymenaus is mentioned again...

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. 2 Timothy 2:17-26


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Now you confuse me.
How many different types of faith are there in the Bible?

wondering
QUOTE="wondering, post: 1237020, member: 8700"]Hi Rollo,

Romans 12:3 is not referring to saving faith.



You say everyone has grace, that it falls on everyone?
Ephesians 4:7;
"But to each of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it?"
So how does grace fit into you theory now?
And faith.
1 Corinthians 12:7,9;
"Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good......to another faith by the same Spirit..."
As we see here as Paul discusses the gifts of the church, not everyone has the faith needed to do a function.
The ones who have it are a gift from God.

So which faith are you talking about when referring to Romans 12:3?
Most likely the one we are talking about, but not all have the gift.
Grace is given to us as God sees fit.
Faith is given to us as God sees fit.
There's no fine line to divide it up.
God doesn't give us one.

So now you say there is a saving faith.
Where in the bible is it called a saving faith?
How much of it do each of us get?
Are there any other type of faiths we need to be looking at?

 

[netchaplain]

You quoted scripture with no comment.
I agree with all scripture.

Probably a misunderstanding. "immediately receive it with gladness" (Scripture). "Does not mean they received faith from it but received joy in the hearing of it for whatever reason" (comment).

And how about answering my post no. 246?

Sorry, I also correspond with 12 other sites and sometimes miss or forget replies. I think my best answer to all but the last of the parable of the sower is that their acceptance of the Gospel of Christ was not truly believed on or they would have also been considered "good ground" and continued as in the last explanation Christ gives.

"but dureth for a while"; This to me evinces one who is only a hearer of the word, a professor-only ("a man may say" Jam 2:18) of Christianity, showing in outward appearance only. (Mat 22:27, 28).

Test view Gill's comment on this: http://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=gill&b=40&c=13

This is why I called it an oxymoron, to me the parables teach only one type of ground was good and the rest were not, or He would have included it with the last example. One is going to be a believer or an unbeliever, it can't be both, as Scripture evinces here: Mat 7:17, 18; 12:33; Jam 3:11, 12.

Again I'll post 2 Peter 2:20-22

Gill again please, because I want you to have what I believe is the best commentary here, which I cannot begin to compare with:
http://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=gill&b=61&c=2

Blessings!

 

[chessman]

Yes, agreed.

Those who were holding fast were saved, and were being saved.

Something I've never denied of course.

And if you want to add to this truth, add what Paul said. Not something else.

He said there were some there who had not held fast (past tense) and thusly still in their sins.

 

[smaller]

Jesus taught "everyone" who believes that man shall live by every Word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

Anyone trying to understand any parable, or applying every parable, or claiming understanding of any parable, "should" understand then that "every Word" does, in some way, apply to them.

Trying to understand the parable of the sower and thinking they are only X ground and others are not is entirely not the point of the parable and entirely NOT true whatsoever. And such claims can not be true by employing the dictates of Jesus in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4.

I would observe the same to any believer who attempts only to apply "some Word of God" to themselves but not "every Word."

This is also why "historical" packaging and elimination of Gods Word using such measures is false. This is why elimination of any LAW, jot or tittle is false.

Every believer, almost to the person, only sits under the Words they like, and ignores and does not, will not, can not apply every Word. It's not an easy gig, granted. But it CAN be done, with understanding.

Paul used the same measure as Jesus did, here:

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

These directions MANDATE that every Word applies to every believer.