“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[Cygnus]

I was talking about our will.
No on can snatch you out of God's hand against your will. But we know from plain scripture that you yourself can choose not to believe anymore, and as a result, lose the Father, the Son, and eternal life:

"24 ...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

Jethro, the verse says NO ONE can snatch you. What part of that don't you understand?

If for some reason you choose not to believe.....then the person who persuaded you against Christ snatched you out of Christ hands...which we read is impossible.

 

[Cygnus]

Sounds good, but it completely contradicts Paul and John who set the condition for remaining saved as continuing to believe. God does not do our believing for us. He provides the faith to believe, but he does not force us to give in to the power of faith and believe. Believing is the duty of man. Faith is what God gave us to fulfill that duty. Some choose not to fulfill that duty (1 John 5:10 NASB).

I've read your reply and it doesn't say what the verse says....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, the verse says NO ONE can snatch you. What part of that don't you understand?

I don't understand the part that you say is there, but which can't be there because it would directly contradict Paul and John who say you are saved when you are abiding in the word, indicating that a believer can indeed remove themselves from God's hand (tree, vine, etc.). So we know from the whole counsel of scripture that John 10:28 does NOT include you walking out yourself and God eventually cutting you off as a result.

It's just simple logic. You being able to snatch yourself out of God's hand would mean Paul was mistaken when he tells the Corinthians that "you are saved IF you hold fast the word" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB emphasis mine). You are contending that one can not stop holding fast the word making Paul's conditional statement meaningless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If for some reason you choose not to believe.....then the person who persuaded you against Christ snatched you out of Christ hands...which we read is impossible.

John plainly warns us about being deceived and led astray by antichrists, who themselves do not abide in the teaching. That's why it has to mean being snatched out of God's hand against your will. No one can do that. You have to come out by your own will, as when someone deceives another to give up their secure position in Christ. But being taken out against your will is impossible.

 

[Cygnus]

I don't understand the part that you say is there, but which can't be there because it would directly contradict Paul and John who say you are saved when you are abiding in the word, indicating that a believer can indeed remove themselves from God's hand (tree, vine, etc.). So we know from the whole counsel of scripture that John 10:28 does NOT include you walking out yourself and God eventually cutting you off as a result.

It's just simple logic. You being able to snatch yourself out of God's hand would mean Paul was mistaken when he tells the Corinthians that "you are saved IF you hold fast the word" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB emphasis mine). You are contending that one can not stop holding fast the word making Paul's conditional statement meaningless.

You seem to be putting a spin on the term "hold fast"....applying a nuisance of the word not called for in the text.

 

[Cygnus]

John plainly warns us about being deceived and led astray by antichrists, who themselves do not abide in the teaching. That's why it has to mean being snatched out of God's hand against your will. No one can do that. You have to come out by your own will, as when someone deceives another to give up their secure position in Christ. But being taken out against your will is impossible.

No one would also include yourself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No one would also include yourself.

It does not, and can not, include yourself when you consider the whole counsel of scripture.

Virtually all false doctrine is guilty of not rightly dividing the Word. Which means they pull a scripture or passage of scripture out by itself and disregard the rest of scripture concerning that particular subject. In this case you are saying 'no one' in John 10:28 NASB includes the person themselves. But knowledge of the full counsel of scripture shows us that Jesus can not be including the believer himself.

You seem to be putting a spin on the term "hold fast"....applying a nuisance of the word not called for in the text.

A person who has never believed, or stopped believing surely is not holding fast, or abiding in the word of the gospel. Jesus talks about it in terms of ground that does not receive or retain the seed planted in it. The seed, of course, being the word of God. No one would argue that the ground without the seed and growth of that seed in it is somehow a picture of one still abiding in and holding fast the word--the seed--of the gospel.

"15“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance." (Luke 8:15 NASB)

Paul and John both say it is the person who continues to hold fast and abide in the word they heard that are saved, not the ones who reject it. It's the condition for getting saved and staying saved--retain the word of the gospel that you heard.

 

[netchaplain]

But see, this doesn't answer the question about security and assurance. It's impossible for any believer to have security and assurance if the potential for no longer believing looms over them exposing the believing they are doing today as not really believing at all.

I do not expect many to understand this, but the confusion here is in Luke 8:13 with the phrase "for a while believe," which shows there was no faith, for belief in Christ is permanent and is never temporary, as the hardness and testings of this life confirms the presence or absence of faith.

Thus, this hyperbolic expression is in the sense of unbelief. The phrase is unique only to this place in Luke, and one would be hard pressed to find a Bible commentator (as far as I know) who will even address this phrase other than John Gill (below), which is one of the reasons why I use his commentaries the most. Another reason is because he's had a lot of experience in the Jewish writings in his studies (circa 1697 – 1771), which also provide for a more exhaustive teaching.

Which for a while believe: "their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24); which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped."

I also think it's quite significant to realize that there are no Bible commentators (that I know of) who teach that salvation can be temporary.

 

[Cygnus]

It does not, and can not, include yourself when you consider the whole counsel of scripture.

Virtually all false doctrine is guilty of not rightly dividing the Word. Which means they pull a scripture or passage of scripture out by itself and disregard the rest of scripture concerning that particular subject. In this case you are saying 'no one' in John 10:28 NASB includes the person themselves. But knowledge of the full counsel of scripture shows us that Jesus can not be including the believer himself.


A person who has never believed, or stopped believing surely is not holding fast, or abiding in the word of the gospel. Jesus talks about it in terms of ground that does not receive or retain the seed planted in it. The seed, of course, being the word of God. No one would argue that the ground without the seed and growth of that seed in it is somehow a picture of one still abiding in and holding fast the word--the seed--of the gospel.

"15“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance." (Luke 8:15 NASB)

Paul and John both say it is the person who continues to hold fast and abide in the word they heard that are saved, not the ones who reject it. It's the condition for getting saved and staying saved--retain the word of the gospel that you heard.

Holding fast can mean.....to hold back, detain, retain. It can also mean to restrain, hinder....or even to hold fast, keep secure, keep from possession of...and also to get possession of, take, also to posses.

To assign your meaning to the verse is not rightly dividing the scripture. "A person who has never believed, or stopped believing surely is not holding fast" isn't the way this verse is presented.

 

[Cygnus]

I do not expect many to understand this, but the confusion here is in Luke 8:13 with the phrase "for a while believe," which shows there was no faith, for belief in Christ is permanent and is never temporary, as the hardness and testings of this life confirms the presence or absence of faith.

Thus, this hyperbolic expression is in the sense of unbelief. The phrase is unique only to this place in Luke, and one would be hard pressed to find a Bible commentator (as far as I know) who will even address this phrase other than John Gill (below), which is one of the reasons why I use his commentaries the most. Another reason is because he's had a lot of experience in the Jewish writings in his studies (circa 1697 – 1771), which also provide for a more exhaustive teaching.

Which for a while believe: "their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24); which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped."

I also think it's quite significant to realize that there are no Bible commentators (that I know of) who teach that salvation can be temporary.

I think the important part is that they were never saved.

 

[netchaplain]

I think the important part is that they were never saved.

Hi Cygnus - Yes, that is one of the cruxes concerning this issue! Thanks for the reply.

Blessings!

 

[netchaplain]

I forgot I also wanted to post this along with Gills commentary:
Luke 8:13
8:13 they believe for a while. One test of a true and living faith is perseverance. Those who finally depart from the way of truth reveal that they were never actually part of God’s family (1 John 2:19). (Reformation study Bible commentary).

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/reformation-study-bible/Luke.8.13

 

[Jim Parker]

I see the admonishments aiding in identifying to the believer those who are false professors who are really unbelievers.

Since there is nothing in the passage to suggest that the admonishments are given as a tool to identify false professors of faith, I must conclude that it is a fabrication designed to teach that scripture doesn't really say what it very clearly does say. It is a necessary invention of those who wish to give the appearance of biblicity to the OSAS heresy.
Jesus gave a very practical method of determining who is and who is not a believer.
Mat 7:16-20 (NKJV) You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
(emphasis mine)


iakov the fool

 

[Mike]

I see the admonishments aiding in identifying to the believer those who are false professors who are really unbelievers.

It seems ironic to claim to believe, then latter claim not to believe. Only one who falsely claims to believe can eventually claim unbelief, because true belief never becomes a false belief. One could think he believed even though in reality he doesn't, but the Lord eventually makes both manifest, if it's true belief or actual unbelief, it cannot be both.

Hi, netchaplain. I truly appreciate that you can take your position with humbleness and patience in response to those who oppose OSAS. This is evidence that the love of Christ is in you, brother.

I have to ask what WIP asked in response to this same post, because I don't feel it's been adequately addressed. While I do not hold to OSAS, I can respect that scripture can be interpreted to support it. What I have extreme difficulty with is the position those who hold to OSAS fall back to whenever accounts of lost faith are told. "Well, they never really had faith, so they didn't really lose their faith." To WIP's point, no one then can be sure that their faith is true until the hour of their death. And if they hold their faith until the hour of their death, then non-OSAS believers would say they have "remained in Him". Then, it becomes about remaining in Him, and our two opposing positions unite.

It seems circular and self fulfilling in reasoning. 1. Be in Him --> 2. remain in Him --> 3. true faith --> 4. OSAS. Those who do not hold to OSAS have no problem with this. It is when a believer breaks down in point 2 and is said never to get to point 3 that the truth breaks down, in my opinion. This is in stark contrast to the even more difficult position that those who break down in point 2 and come to reject Christ are saved nevertheless. So those who hold to OSAS seem to be in two separate buckets.

1. Anyone who has lost their faith never truly had faith at all. (or)
2. Anyone who has lost their faith remains saved because they accepted Christ at one point in their life.

For lack of better words, I'll say it seems to be a "lazy" position to claim that no one who ever fell out of faith ever really had it at all. It seems like a convenient way to defend OSAS. On the other hand, it is even more difficult to conceive that regardless of what happens in your faith walk, your salvation is secure.

 

[Cygnus]

Where is the verse that directly says if you stop believing in Christ...you lose your salvation. No inference. Point blank.

 

[ezra]

the OSAS heresy by trying to say that Jesus "didn't really mean" exactly what he very clearly said.

lay aside the osas teaching . so tell me what is the so called heresy of the full assurance of our salvation? i call it a know so salvation .i go to bed saved and wake up saved. that does not give me excuse to commit sin and say i have full assurance so its ok . not its not but we all do in one way or the other

 

[Jim Parker]

I forgot I also wanted to post this along with Gills commentary:
Luke 8:13
8:13 they believe for a while. One test of a true and living faith is perseverance. Those who finally depart from the way of truth reveal that they were never actually part of God’s family (1 John 2:19). (Reformation study Bible commentary).
https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/reformation-study-bible/Luke.8.13

There is not a necessary connection between the two "proof texts" you have posted.
(1) There is not indication that Jesus taught that, because they believed only for a while, that their belief was not legitimate.
(2) In the single verse from 1 John, there is nothing to indicate that John was referring to people who "believe for a while" as in those described in Jesus parable of the sower. Who those who "went out from us" were is not disclosed and remains a matter of conjecture.

Conjecture ans speculation are not reasonable reasonable tools for doing exegesis.

By inserting unsupported speculation necessitated by your preconceptions of what the scriptures need to say, you have rendered your "interpretation" eisegesis.

Trying to force diverse scriptures to say what they do not say simply because they have some semblance of similarity is a very sloppy manner of doing Bible interpretation. This is not a rational, methodical, approach to interpretation. Is that really what the "Reformation study Bible commentary" does? If so, it reveals a very sad state of reformation theology, indeed!

You are not doing interpretation. You are "proof-texting." And anyone can prove anything they want, no matter how absurd, by "proof-texting." Televangelists do it all the time.

You can be way be better than that.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

what is the so called heresy of the full assurance of our salvation?

The very real heresy is that it is repeatedly and specifically refuted by scripture.

For example: (This will require that you have a very clear understanding of what the word "IF" means.)

RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.
("Provided that" is synonymous with the word "if".)

and

COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

and

HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

There are more.
I have posted them often.
OSAS people believe those scriptures do not mean what they very explicitly say.
I assume that is because they hold the words of the heretic John Calvin above the words of scripture.

iakov the sool

 

[Jim Parker]

Isn't this verse talking about Isreal as being the branch?

That passage states that the Gentile believers were grafted into Israel by God and that God can break them off again.

 

[Jim Parker]

What is meant by bearing NO fruit?

If a person just does one "Godly" deed....then they have beared fruit....and will not be cut off.

Correct. But they can expect to be "pruned" so that they will become more fruitful. (Jn 15:2)