“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[Jim Parker]

ok i see any thing out side your circle of belief /doctrine/ denomination is false .

It has nothing to do with my belief. It has to do with what scripture explicitly states.

i could assume any one out side your belief will not enter the kingdom of heaven .

(Edited by staff)
Did I not just say: "I don't think it is a matter which would negate your salvation"
Was that not clear enough for you?
It is extremely frustrating to attempt to respond to people who don't seem to bother with anything I post and then respond to things I DID NOT post.
(Edited by staff)

 

[GodsGrace]

ok i see any thing out side your circle of belief /doctrine/ denomination is false . i had a feeling all along it would be this way. since you hold the correct teaching there is no need to continue this . so i guess i could assume any one out side your belief will not enter the kingdom of heaven . enjoy your spot at the throne with Jesus .the rest of us gentiles will go to hell

Ezra,
First of all, Jim Parker never said what you imply above. Read his post no. 76.
But what I'd like to say is that your assertion here is totally incorrect.
You say that anything out of the sphere or circle of belief will be considered false by him.
Can I not say the same of you?
Do you not believe YOU are correct in your doctrine?
I believe the doctrine of eternal salvation is a very dangerous doctrine leading many to NOT have a righteous life.

If you must believe to be saved
And you stop believing
Are you still saved?

W

 

[Jim Parker]

I believe the doctrine of eternal salvation is a very dangerous doctrine leading many to NOT have a righteous life.

AH! You have cut to the "dram of e'el" in the teaching. Once saved, we don't have to do anything to attain to the fullness of Christ.

How totally foreign such a notion would have been to Paul!
Phil 3:7-15 (RSV) But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you.

 

[ezra]

If you must believe to be saved
And you stop believing
Are you still saved?

sigh i made the mistake of commenting on this post . any time this subject comes up it creates a stir a controversy i have stated how i believe
i also have been told i am wrong /false doctrine i hit a nerve with jim since i dont agree with him i should go away . then you throw the Big if
here is the good news i will be the one answer for me . i have no plans to stop believing as you asked. i also have no plans on finding put if i can lose my salvation . how about you? i have also stated i do not agree with full blown practice of sin. we will sin if we do we must confess ask forgiveness 1 john 1:9

I believe the doctrine of eternal salvation is a very dangerous doctrine leading many to NOT have a righteous life.

sigh its not dangerous if one lives it like they should ..you will always have those who think they are saved either by being good or a head belief. this is in every denomination i stated i believe in a type preservation of the saints. if your truly saved and fall away i believe like the prodigal son one will come to their senses and return/repent . i leave you with this from Philippians 2
Lights in the World

12 So then, my dear friends,z just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to desire and to work out His good purpose. 14 Do everything without grumbling and arguing,15 so that you may be blameless and pure,e children of God who are faultless in a crooked and perverted generation,i among whom you shine like stars in the world. 16 Hold firmly toj the message of life. Then I can boast in the day of Christ that I didn’t run or labor for nothing. 17 But even if I am poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 In the same way you should also be glad and rejoice with me. i try note TRY to practice this.if i dont agree with a teaching then i try not to argue about it. if its like Mormon jw even catholic . a work based salvation

if this is not acceptable explanation i am sorry there will always be IF question . i preached in a southern baptist church and it was growing .only thing i preached was make sure your saved . one got mad cause i was general Baptist even though i was preaching the word. kind of reminds me of this post ..

 

[ezra]

Ezra,
First of all, Jim Parker never said what you imply above. Read his post no. 76.
But what I'd like to say is that your assertion here is totally incorrect.
You say that anything out of the sphere or circle of belief will be considered false by him.
Can I not say the same of you?
Do you not believe YOU are correct in your doctrine?
I believe the doctrine of eternal salvation is a very dangerous doctrine leading many to NOT have a righteous life.

If you must believe to be saved
And you stop believing
Are you still saved?

W

You say that anything out of the sphere or circle of belief will be considered false by him.
Can I not say the same of you?

no you may not because it is a matter of how we read scriptures . i have brothers sisters in christ who believe the baptism of the spirit is speaking in tongues ..i disagree but i do not say that is false teaching . good night

 

[ezra]

as·sur·ance

A statement or indication that inspires confidence;a guarantee or pledge:

1. a positive declaration intended to give confidence: many assurances of support.
2. promise or pledge; guaranty; surety: to give one's assurance that a job will be done.
3. freedom from doubt; certainty: to feel assurance of success.
4. freedom from timidity; self-confidence: to enter a room with assurance.
5. presumptuous boldness; impudence.
6. Chiefly Brit. insurance.

the o.p was hebrew 10
“Full Assurance of Faith” 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. these are instructions not a debate

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those who finally depart from the way of truth reveal that they were never actually part of God’s family (1 John 2:19). (Reformation study Bible commentary).

How does one get that out of the passage? Where does it say they were never actually part of God's family?

"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:19 NASB italics added by the NASB translators)

And how is that interpretation consistent with his exhortation to his audience 5 verses later, who John himself says are saved, that if they remain, unlike the antichrists have done, they will continue in the Son and the Father?

"23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:23-24 NASB)

His exhortation to believers to abide in what they heard from the beginning and, thus, abide in the Son and the Father is terribly inconsistent with an interpretation of vs.19 that says only those who never believed to begin with will not remain. Given his exhortation, it's impossible that the passage excludes the possibility of a true believer not remaining in the faith. Or that it can only mean those who did not remain were never 'really' saved to begin with.

 

[GodsGrace]

no you may not because it is a matter of how we read scriptures . i have brothers sisters in christ who believe the baptism of the spirit is speaking in tongues ..i disagree but i do not say that is false teaching . good night

If there are two different teachings, one must be incorrect.
That does not mean the person believing it is lost - we are not saved by our doctrine but by the blood of our Lord.
Two different teachings cannot both be correct.

W

 

[smaller]

Hebrews 10:
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Believers above come with a "true heart" which heart truthfully includes an evil conscience. There is no sense kidding ourselves about this fact. The fact of an evil conscience.

The intentions of Gods Words are always to "divide" and "separate" us from the control that our evil conscience brings to us.

The difficulties we encounter with this evil conscience is that it can very easily "lead us" into lying about the fact of having same, and then our heart is no longer "true" or "truthful" about our current state. And we come before God as a liar and a hypocrite, quite falsely thinking this isn't the case or that "we're all that" in the spiritually good senses of the term only. This might also be known as hypocrisy. Thinking we are something other than what we really are internally. In this our evil conscience has led us into internal deception.

It's very hard for an evil conscience to speak truthfully. I would even say it's impossible, because internal evil is deceptive and works against the truth. A true heart stands "divided" yet stands "truthfully" in recognition of the fact of our internals. This is a hard thing for religious people to come into, truthfully.

I'm sure we've all witnessed believers who are so so pious in "church" but we also know them on the street to be quite different than their hands folded humble little religious selves when it comes to the real world. Think people taking communion with a hangover from their Saturday night carousing for example. I use this as an example because it shows the workings of both good and evil, in the conscience. And whether they actually showed it or not, even the believers without a hangover have an evil conscience in any case.

We should all recognize that we have evil working within us, that is in our flesh, that works against life and against truth. If we don't we have been blinded by it and are no longer truthful about it.

IF we recognize what happened to "man" from the beginning, was the "ingestion" of the knowledge of good and evil, which DID place evil within us, within our conscience. Had the infamous "tree" not been in the garden. Had the tempter, the deceiver not been in the garden. Had the law not been in the garden. Had understanding been "in" Adam and Eve, then none of us would have this issue.

Since all these things were in place it should be considered to be part of Gods plan for man from the start. God DID set evil for man, internally.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Nobody is able or capable of "fooling" God in this matter. It is foolish to think otherwise.

God in Christ saves us by faith in Him, REGARDLESS of this internal reality.

TWO separate and distinct TREES grow in man. In spiritual terms they are called "the knowledge of good" and "the knowledge of evil." Both grow in the same body of man. It is quite pointless to say or see otherwise, and only claim ourselves good when the scriptural equations make no such presentations.

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

This evil present will deny it's there, within, every single time, because it is by nature, A LIAR. It can not "work" it's way into heaven. No amount of "good" can offset the reality of it being a fact.

Believers who think they can "work" their ways past this internal reality and earn Grace haven't considered what they really consist of, internally. When God in Christ took us on, He did so regardless of this fact.

Evil present with us can NOT produce 'good fruit.' Nor can we produce Perfection in this state. It was never in our hands to do so, from the start.

Paul delineated this to the Galatians, who began in and by the Spirit of Truth, and then tried quite vainly to produce themselves, on their own, by works.

Galatians 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[smaller]

There is a very certain "woe is me" state that comes with the truth that scripture presents, that evil is present with us and that we can not rid our flesh of it. It is on this ground, this flesh, reduced by the working of the Spirit within us to recognize the state of our sorry flesh, that the Great Divider brings HIS WORK to us and brings us into truthfulness. The flesh, with evil present, will go kicking and screaming, every single time in every single instance because it is an adverse working to the Spirit. And it's MEANT to be that way.

Good grows unto more good by the Light of His Spirit.

And evil grows in a converse manner, resisting more and more, as it is meant to do.

God makes His Light shine on both aspects of our internals. When His Light Shines, what then does GOD SEE? What do we see?

Psalm 18:28
For thou wilt light my candle: the Lord my God will enlighten my darkness.

And that darkness will claim, quite falsely, "I am only LIGHT."

By the Light of Gods Words, there is no such animal as "only an individual" in the scriptures. Freewill for example claims there is only "a person," a "freestanding individual will" that is capable of being "one or the other." This is not true. There is a person with both good and evil internally, fully capable of being both, simultaneously.

The shortest path to recognizing why there is no "freestanding" individual will is to hear and see what the Word says happens to people:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

IF, when anyone reads the above, and says in their heart, this does not happen to me, they are in fact hearing the voice of the deceiver, blinding them to this fact. It will always say, "this does not happen to YOU."

IF we look upon others and do not recognize the above fact, as Paul recognized here for example:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

A blinded believer will only see "a person." A supposed "freestanding will" of a person, singular. That simply isn't the case of scriptural reality. There is the person and there is the "god of this world, blinding their minds." There is no YOU as a free standing individual. That claim is a false claim as it pertains to the blinded unsaved person.

Paul saw the same thing here:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

This same 'spirit of slumber' is upon any who read the above and just see the blinded person and utterly totally fail to perceive that there is another working upon them, blinding them, that is NOT THEM. It is the working of that BLINDING POWER to make the mind of ANY believer NOT SEE this fact. It is the same sight Paul had here for us, prior to salvation:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Again, we should not, if we are hearing and seeing, see JUST and ONLY a person, singular. That simply isn't the case. Again, here, Paul tells us the Spiritual quest that is put upon him:

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

This "turning" from darkness is a constant walk. And it is a walk against our adversary who does work in the flesh including the mind. There is no "you" in scriptures.

I am fully assured that Paul was saved, and the messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul was not saved whatsoever:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

When we are trying to balance out all the scriptures that deal with "believers" on the adverse side of the equations, we MIGHT recognize that there is another party involved. Just as there was with the flesh of Paul, above. TWO states of eternal fates can be easily perceived. One, for Paul, eternal life. And the opposite for the messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul. It's quite pointless to see "only Paul." Only Paul didn't exist by his own claims and sights.

IF you've managed to read this and still haven't figured it out, I might suggest to take a very close look at Romans 11:8, because this DOES happen to gentile believers as well.

IF God in Christ allows you to see these matters, THEN you are starting to AWAKE:

Romans 13:
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

To put on the armour of light is to SEE our own darkness and FROM WHOM these workings come. There is no 'you' in scriptures. There is "you" and there is the working of our adversary in our own sorry hides. The more light that is shed on THEM, the more they will resist.

So, God Speed. His Light will Shine, whether we like to hear it or not.

 

[ezra]

If there are two different teachings, one must be incorrect.
That does not mean the person believing it is lost - we are not saved by our doctrine but by the blood of our Lord.
Two different teachings cannot both be correct.

W

since you seem to be holding the correct teaching do tell us who is correct?

we are not saved by our doctrine but by the blood of our Lord.
Two different teachings cannot both be correct.

i have yet to see where me or any one else has said doctrine saves..... do you have plans in the near future of falling away and no longer being saved? your gnat straining ... what does it mean to you when paul says there are many members in the body of Christ example one might be part of the eye or finger or feet . this is like beating a dead horse . if you can prove %100 that you have the correct doctrine. then i will in return post a retraction of all my post. this is how i have studied and do believe. i dont expect any one else to believe that way..not even my family. when paul said work out your own salvation that exactly what he means work it out.

my wife and i recently came back from Eureka springs Arkansas. where they have a Bible museum history of the Bible. . a holy land tour with a tabernacle in the wilderness. we attended a teaching on the tabernacle . a 89 year old man was teaching we talked about how the high priest went into the holy of hollies once a year actually be correct twice. once for him self and next for the congregation. i tradition has been taught they would tie a rope around his ankle in case he died. no place in history has the high priest ever died in the tabernacle. nor is there any thing in scripture that says they used a rope around his ankle.
here is my point we discussed this wed night no body agreed with us. so we just dropped . yes i feel we are right as i have studied out for me.
i am not going to jump up and down say your wrong wrong wrong. its ok to disagree

 

[chessman]

What is the believer to be mostly assured of in the Faith?—“eternal salvation.”

Romans 13:11 (LEB) And do this [love one another, v8,9,10] because you know the time, that it is already the hour for you to wake up from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we believed. ​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

i am not going to jump up and down say your wrong wrong wrong. its ok to disagree

I often wish someone would come to my defense when someone is treating me badly or unfairly in the forums but it rarely happens. So on behalf of my brother Jim Parker I'm going to state honestly that you have clearly demonstrated that it is not okay with you to disagree. For someone who says they never do OSAS teaching you sure are hotly opinionated about the subject...to the point of anger and unfairness.

The Bible is so crystal clear about non-OSAS that it has led me to the conclusion that a spirit is at work in the Protestant church blinding her eyes to the plain words of scripture. To the point that they 'don't really' mean what they so plainly say. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 being, to me, one of the most blatant examples.

In the broader picture, I also think OSAS and this new absolutely scary hyper-grace version of OSAS is the leaven that will destroy the church in accordance with end-time Biblical prophecy. I was surprised, but not so surprised to see someone else say the same thing in an on-line teaching. We can play our 'let's just get along' games if we want, but it's clear that OSAS is leading the church astray, not just into false doctrines, but into false doctrines that lead to unrighteousness, because it gives false assurance (as opposed to Biblical assurance) that there is nothing you can do or not do to become unsaved, emboldening the struggling believer to not persevere in faith to the very end. And all of this gets energized by the Protestant Church's fundamental misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. works doctrine. Somehow, believing is now considered a damnable work if you think you have to do it to be justified/saved. How ludicrous.

 

[Cygnus]

Here's the issue with those who believe they can lose your salvation.

You already have lost it.

What keeps you saved?

 

[Cygnus]

If there are two different teachings, one must be incorrect.
That does not mean the person believing it is lost - we are not saved by our doctrine but by the blood of our Lord.
Two different teachings cannot both be correct.

W

What you said is absolutely true..."we are not saved by our doctrine but by the blood of our Lord."
...and once we are saved by the blood of our lord...we remain saved by the blood of our Lord.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

OSAS here.
Have I missed anything?
I'm ready to jump right in.
Where should I start?
I guess I'll start with Cygnus.

Amen Cygnus.
You got it going.
Now I'll go on to the others.

 

[Cygnus]

OSAS here.
Have I missed anything?
I'm ready to jump right in.
Where should I start?
I guess I'll start with Cygnus.

Amen Cygnus.
You got it going.
Now I'll go on to the others.

Thanks Rollo.

I once use to think you could lose your salvation...then I realized we are saved by grace. Not of works.....so, we are also remain in our salvation by grace and not of works.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks Rollo.

I once use to think you could lose your salvation...then I realized we are saved by grace. Not of works.....so, we are also remain in our salvation by grace and not of works.

We've argued this before Cygnus and I'm not biting.

I just want to clarify a misconception of yours:
We do not remain saved because of our works.
We remain saved because of our belief in Jesus.

You do not believe in Jesus = You are NOT saved.
You believe in Jesus = You ARE saved.

These two conditions remain true for the rest of your life.
If you believe, you are saved. If you don't believe, you are not saved.

And if you believe, you will adhere to the teachings of Jesus.
If you want to call that "works" so be it.
I call it a joy to follow His techings the best way I know how.

W

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I often wish someone would come to my defense when someone is treating me badly or unfairly in the forums but it rarely happens. So on behalf of my brother Jim Parker I'm going to state honestly that you have clearly demonstrated that it is not okay with you to disagree. For someone who says they never do OSAS teaching you sure are hotly opinionated about the subject...to the point of anger and unfairness.

The Bible is so crystal clear about non-OSAS that it has led me to the conclusion that a spirit is at work in the Protestant church blinding her eyes to the plain words of scripture. To the point that they 'don't really' mean what they so plainly say. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 being, to me, one of the most blatant examples.

In the broader picture, I also think OSAS and this new absolutely scary hyper-grace version of OSAS is the leaven that will destroy the church in accordance with end-time Biblical prophecy. I was surprised, but not so surprised to see someone else say the same thing in an on-line teaching. We can play our 'let's just get along' games if we want, but it's clear that OSAS is leading the church astray, not just into false doctrines, but into false doctrines that lead to unrighteousness, because it gives false assurance (as opposed to Biblical assurance) that there is nothing you can do or not do to become unsaved, emboldening the struggling believer to not persevere in faith to the very end. And all of this gets energized by the Protestant Church's fundamental misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. works doctrine. Somehow, believing is now considered a damnable work if you think you have to do it to be justified/saved. How ludicrous.

Hello Jethro I just love your use of the English language.
"Crystal clear" is powerful.
First of all, 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 is a clear example of OSAS.
To twist it around to say anything else is a clear example of desperation.
Why, OSAS can stand on this verse alone, without the help of the dozens of others.

If one believes in vain, that's believing with your head and not your heart.
Have you ever heard that before?
Have you ever heard it said that when you believe with your head and not your heart, then you're not really saved?
Once you have understood the true meaning on these verses, then and only then do the other verses used by non-OSAS people begin to make sense.

I know a good self-help cd you can buy and listen to it as you sleep at night.
It will make you feel as if you are waking up in heaven every day.
I highly recommend it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello Jethro I just love your use of the English language.
"Crystal clear" is powerful.
First of all, 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 is a clear example of OSAS.
To twist it around to say anything else is a clear example of desperation.
Why, OSAS can stand on this verse alone, without the help of the dozens of others.

If one believes in vain, that's believing with your head and not your heart.
Have you ever heard that before?
Have you ever heard it said that when you believe with your head and not your heart, then you're not really saved?
Once you have understood the true meaning on these verses, then and only then do the other verses used by non-OSAS people begin to make sense.

I know a good self-help cd you can buy and listen to it as you sleep at night.
It will make you feel as if you are waking up in heaven every day.
I highly recommend it.

What if I stop believing in Christ?
Am i still saved?