“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[netchaplain]

I refer to the early church fathers who wrote before the East-West schism and way before the schisms inflicted on the body of Christ by the so-called "protestant reformers."

"The writers known as the church fathers represent the ancient orthodox church as opposed to other elements of ancient Christianity such as Gnosticism" (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html). It wasn't until after the death of the Apostle John (who was the last Apostle to die circa 100 a.d., and who also contributed most to the collecting and forming of the writings of the NT) when heresies became prominent, which birthed inventors of Gnosticism.

Many if not most of the so called "church fathers" were those who comprised these inventors who were discovered to be heretics due to their Gnostic doctrines. Just a sample of a few are Justin Martyr, Tatian, Clement of Alexandria and Origen, which being said of Origen that he was one "who did the most of all to create and give direction to the forces of apostasy down through centuries." ("Which Bible"?, David Otis Fuller, D.D., page 192).

 

[chessman]

The believing in vain that Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15:2 is not the fake believing of the insincere person.

Correct. It's the real believing of some persons among them who just happened to have sincerely believed (back in the past) that Jesus never rose from the grave. Thus, these persons were never saved. It's called logic:

1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 17 (LEB)

Now if Christ is preached as raised up from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, Christ has not been raised either.

But if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith is in vain. [see 15:2's "unless you believed in vain]

But if Christ has not been raised, your faith is empty; you are still in your sins. [see 15:2's unless you believed in vain]
​

Logically (and quite simple to understand really) this simply means 1 Cor 15:1-2 is NOT anti-OSAS logic. You either believe (present tense) the true Gospel (including the fact Jesus Christ rose from the dead) and are thusly (present tense) saved or you didn't believe (past tense) the true Gospel and are thusly not saved (your faith is in vain, you are still in your sins, you belived in vain).

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (NASB) Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. ​

And of course this means, since you've said several times that 1 Cor 15:1-2 is The Bibles most 'clear and plain' anti-OSAS passage, that you should logically be a OSAS believer if you really believe Paul's message in 1 Cor 15.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The part on the bottom that's crystal clear.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

13 ...if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."
(1 Corinthians 15:1-2,13-18 NASB)

The Corinthians have believed in vain if Christ is not risen from the dead. "unless you believed in vain" in vs. 2 has nothing to do with OSAS. It does not change what Paul says is the condition for being saved, which is that you presently believe. That completely destroys the hyper-grace version of OSAS which says you are still saved even if you stop believing. And it destroys the traditional OSAS argument (which you subscribe to, I think) that says you are saved if you persevere in the faith and never fall from the faith, because if you do it shows you never really believed to begin with), which you can not know until the day you die.

You like things simple, you said. Well, it is very simple. A person is saved as long as they believe. You are safe and secure in Christ as long as you are believing in Christ. If you stop believing you are no longer safe and secure in Christ. Done. That's the simple truth about security and assurance in Christ. Assurance does not mean you have it 'no matter what'. It means as long as you are in Christ you are secure and assured of what is to come.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

since you've said several times that 1 Cor 15:1-2 is The Bibles most 'clear and plain' anti-OSAS passage, that you should logically be a OSAS believer if you really believe Paul's message in 1 Cor 15.

How is not knowing if you're really saved until the day you die a doctrine of security and assurance?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You either believe (present tense) the trure Gospel (including the fact Jesus Christ rose from the dead) and are thusly (present tense) saved or you didn't believe (past tense) the true Gospel and are thusly not saved (your faith is in vain, you are still in your sins, you belived in vain).

...or, you quit believing.

 

[chessman]

How is not knowing if you're really saved until the day you die a doctrine of security and assurance?

It's not. It's a doctrine of confusion and lack of Scriptural understanding.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's not. It's a doctrine of confusion and lack of Scriptural understanding.

All you have to do is explain how wondering if you're 'really' saved is somehow a doctrine of security and assurance if you can't know if you're 'really' saved until the day you die.

 

[chessman]

...or, you quit believing.

Paul's not talking about some among you who once believed Jesus rose, then slowly somehow quit believing Jesus rose. He clearly speaks of how some among them believed in vain (past tense).

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul's not talking about some among you who once believed Jesus rose, then slowly somehow quit believing Jesus rose. He clearly speaks of how some among them believed in vain (past tense).

1 Corinthians 15:2 is speaking exactly about someone who once believed and stopped believing.
The believing "in vain" is precisely because if you STOP believing, then the fact that you EVER believed at all is IN VAIN - of no value to you - UNLESS you keep on believing.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

13 ...if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."
(1 Corinthians 15:1-2,13-18 NASB)

The Corinthians have believed in vain if Christ is not risen from the dead. "unless you believed in vain" in vs. 2 has nothing to do with OSAS. It does not change what Paul says is the condition for being saved, which is that you presently believe. That completely destroys the hyper-grace version of OSAS which says you are still saved even if you stop believing. And it destroys the traditional OSAS argument (which you subscribe to, I think) that says you are saved if you persevere in the faith and never fall from the faith, because if you do it shows you never really believed to begin with), which you can not know until the day you die.

You like things simple, you said. Well, it is very simple. A person is saved as long as they believe. You are safe and secure in Christ as long as you are believing in Christ. If you stop believing you are no longer safe and secure in Christ. Done. That's the simple truth about security and assurance in Christ. Assurance does not mean you have it 'no matter what'. It means as long as you are in Christ you are secure and assured of what is to come.

Jethro,
As I said to Chessman, 1 Corinthians 15:2 is describing persons who ONCE BELIEVED and have stopped believing - they thus have believed in vain what was preached by Paul, the saving gospel message.
The KJV (which I don't really care for but I checked out 3 very different bibles for this) sends me to Hebrews 2:1
which also states that we are to give "earnest heed" to what Paul preached (Jesus' saving sacrifice), "lest at any time we should let them slip."

Let what slip? The message of Jesus' sacrifice and how we are to keep adhering to this belief as in 1 Corinthians 15:2.

So we agree. OK.

Could you explain better your comments to Rollo up above?

Hyper Grace Version of OSAS: You are still saved even if you stop believing.

OK. I don't agree with this, but I understand to what you're referring.

Traditional OSAS Argument: You persevere in the faith and must never fall and if you do you never really had faith to begin with.

What does "never fall" mean? Never sin? Never stop having faith?

Rollo believes that if you really love God, it's impossible to stop loving Him.
This is true of course. But what if you just THINK you love God? Wouldn't you still be saved?
I'm not here to decide who's saved and who isn't - just thinking out loud.
So you're saved as long as you THINK you love Him, and then when you STOP THINKING you love Him, you'd become lost again - which still would agree with loss of salvation believers.

I think we tend to make this too intellectual maybe.

If you BELIEVE, you're saved.
If you don't BELIEVE, you're not saved.

Easy.

Wondering

 

[chessman]

1 Corinthians 15:2 is speaking exactly about someone who once believed and stopped believing.

The facts of the Greek grammar in the verse are against your statement above. Look it up:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-2.htm

And here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=J...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

"TENSES OF THE INDICATIVE MOOD.​

6. The significance of the tenses of the Indicative mood may be stated in general as follows: --​

As respects progress:
The Present and Imperfect denote action in progress;
the Perfect, Pluperfect, and Future Perfect denote completed action;
the Aorist represents the action indefinitely as an event or single fact;
the Future is used either of action in progress like the Present, or indefinitely like the Aorist.​

As respects time:
The Present and Perfect denote present time;
the Imperfect, Aorist, and Pluperfect denote past time;
the Future and Future Perfect denote future time.​

The verb "believed" from "unless you believed in vain" is rendered in the past tense English because the fact is, that's what Paul meant. Some among them had in the past believed in vain. He said that some among them had in a single event in the past, believed in vain via the Greek grammar.

He doesn't say there were some among them that once believed then stopped believing. But he could have, if that's what he meant to say.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jethro,
As I said to Chessman, 1 Corinthians 15:2 is describing persons who ONCE BELIEVED and have stopped believing - they thus have believed in vain what was preached by Paul, the saving gospel message.
The KJV (which I don't really care for but I checked out 3 very different bibles for this) sends me to Hebrews 2:1
which also states that we are to give "earnest heed" to what Paul preached (Jesus' saving sacrifice), "lest at any time we should let them slip."

Let what slip? The message of Jesus' sacrifice and how we are to keep adhering to this belief as in 1 Corinthians 15:2.

So we agree. OK.

Could you explain better your comments to Rollo up above?

Hyper Grace Version of OSAS: You are still saved even if you stop believing.

OK. I don't agree with this, but I understand to what you're referring.

Traditional OSAS Argument: You persevere in the faith and must never fall and if you do you never really had faith to begin with.

What does "never fall" mean? Never sin? Never stop having faith?

Rollo believes that if you really love God, it's impossible to stop loving Him.
This is true of course. But what if you just THINK you love God? Wouldn't you still be saved?
I'm not here to decide who's saved and who isn't - just thinking out loud.
So you're saved as long as you THINK you love Him, and then when you STOP THINKING you love Him, you'd become lost again - which still would agree with loss of salvation believers.

I think we tend to make this too intellectual maybe.

If you BELIEVE, you're saved.
If you don't BELIEVE, you're not saved.

Easy.

Wondering

You are saying we don't need a heart felt relationship with Jesus Christ in order to be saved.
We just need to say the words, just think the thoughts, and you're on your way to heaven.
That's a wishy washy way of looking at things.

You can't just think you love God.
You can't just think you know the answer and expect that to be good enough.
The ones who thought they should be in heaven, Jesus found them and kicked them out.

Do you just think you love Jesus?
Do you want to chance being thrown out of heaven for all eternity?
Turn from you wicked ways and tell Jesus you love him and mean it today!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think we tend to make this too intellectual maybe.

If you BELIEVE, you're saved.
If you don't BELIEVE, you're not saved.

Easy.

I started to say in post #167 to Rollo that spirit-less 'scholars' have over thought this to the point of confusion for the rest of us. When in fact, as you point, out it's really quite elementary.

Traditional OSAS Argument: You persevere in the faith and must never fall and if you do you never really had faith to begin with.

What does "never fall" mean? Never sin? Never stop having faith?

It means 'never fall from believing'.

I have to run off to work again. I will address the rest of your post later.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are saying we don't need a heart felt relationship with Jesus Christ in order to be saved.
We just need to say the words, just think the thoughts, and you're on your way to heaven.
That's a wishy washy way of looking at things.

You can't just think you love God.
You can't just think you know the answer and expect that to be good enough.
The ones who thought they should be in heaven, Jesus found them and kicked them out.

Do you just think you love Jesus?
Do you want to chance being thrown out of heaven for all eternity?
Turn from you wicked ways and tell Jesus you love him and mean it today!

I KNOW people who believe they love the Lord and are following Him.
However, this doesn't manifest itself. They talk about church all the time and not the Lord. I miss not talking about the Lord, which is why I'm here.
They DO all the right things. They go to church, they do the works. I think they're trusting their works but they don't know about salvation through grace and the true meaning of the atonement, so does this mean they're lost?
I don't think so. I think they're saved - I believe Jesus saves us not something we get right.

So I don't see them having a love for the Lord that burns inside them.
Luke 24:32

But I have to believe they ARE saved because they THINK or BELIEVE they're doing the right thing.

Oh. And what wicked ways????
Have you been following me around!!!!!
LOL

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Paul's not talking about some among you who once believed Jesus rose, then slowly somehow quit believing Jesus rose. He clearly speaks of how some among them believed in vain (past tense).

In 1 Cor. 15 Paul is addressing believers who didn't think there was a resurrection of the dead. IF there is no resurrection of the dead Paul explains that there is no point in believing, and that life itself is then simply vain, without purpose. Today we might consider such a mindset nihilism, a belief that life is meaningless i.e. vain.

Paul employs classic "if/then" reasoning in his preamble of how life works now and will go into the future in the last portion of the chapter:

1 Cor. 15:
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Even believers who don't believe OSAS, IF they stopped and thought about it for a minute, they actually DO believe "eternal life" regardless. They just believe that the "eternal life" that the believers they suppose abandoned Christ and therefore Christ abandons them is an eternal life of torture.

So such believe OSAS in a negative sense of the term. OSAS unto eternal torture.

Right beliefs do not save anyone. Believers are raised, present tense, the moment they believe.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

What transpires "within" with these people? Such can not even confess that Jesus is Lord, apart from the working of the Holy Spirit IN THEM. And they simply say, SAVE ME. We've heard the classic 4 step prayer. It could be as little as a 2 stepper. And what happens at that instant?

Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We all have a very hard time seeing this because we, in our fleshly sin burdened selves can't see it. It is in fact HIDDEN at this present time from us. Col. 3:3

When something such as this is hidden, believers do lean to forget what they can't see.

But the above is really all that is involved. Faith is quite simple in this regards, not complex whatsoever.

Such belief is not based on right beliefs or right anything. The Holy Spirit touches inside, even if in the SLIGHTEST manner. People who believe have often never even picked up a Bible and read it. They hear "testimony" of witnesses to the fact that God in Christ loves them, expressed His sacrifice for their sins, not counting sins against us, forgiving us, and rose from the dead, that we who believe this will have eternal life.

And yes, people who believe this do forget. This doesn't mean Christ and what He did and will do won't happen. It will happen, regardless of our intentions.

So what does the anti OSAS crowd really believe?

They believe God does count sins against believers. This won't cut the mustard of scripture. They have a wrong belief. I personally think such ill headed people will be saved regardless of their ill intentions toward other fallen believers, even though they themselves have forgotten the effect of Christ's sacrifice.

2 Corinthians 5:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

When we witness about Jesus, we are simply trying to reconcile them to a hard fact that won't change, which is the above.

The non-OSAS crowd does NOT believe 2 Cor. 5:19.

Whether they do nor not will prove to be irrelevant anyway. The Power of God in Christ will wipe away every nay sayer and they will shut their mouths before the Face of The Almighty. Romans 3:19

 

[GodsGrace]

In 1 Cor. 15 Paul is addressing believers who didn't think there was a resurrection of the dead. IF there is no resurrection of the dead Paul explains that there is no point in believing, and that life itself is then simply vain, without purpose. Today we might consider such a mindset nihilism, a belief that life is meaningless i.e. vain.

Paul employs classic "if/then" reasoning in his preamble of how life works now and will go into the future in the last portion of the chapter:

1 Cor. 15:
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Even believers who don't believe OSAS, IF they stopped and thought about it for a minute, they actually DO believe "eternal life" regardless. They just believe that the "eternal life" that the believers they suppose abandoned Christ and therefore Christ abandons them is an eternal life of torture.

So such believe OSAS in a negative sense of the term. OSAS unto eternal torture.

Right beliefs do not save anyone. Believers are raised, present tense, the moment they believe.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

And what happens at that instant?

Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We all have a very hard time seeing this because we, in our fleshly sin burdened selves can't see it. It is in fact HIDDEN at this present time from us. Col. 3:3

When something such as this is hidden, believers do lean to forget what they can't see.

But the above is really all that is involved. Faith is quite simple in this regards, not complex whatsoever.

Such belief is not based on right beliefs or right anything. People who believe have often never even picked up a Bible and read it. They hear "testimony" of witnesses to the fact that God in Christ loves them, expressed His sacrifice for their sins, not counting sins against us, forgiving us, and rose from the dead, that we who believe this will have eternal life.

And yes, people who believe this do forget. This doesn't mean Christ and what He did and will do won't happen. It will happen, regardless of our intentions.

So what does the anti OSAS crowd really believe?

They believe God does count sins against believers. This won't cut the mustard of scripture. They have a wrong belief. I personally think such ill headed people will be saved regardless of their ill intentions toward other fallen believers, even though they themselves have forgotten the effect of Christ's sacrifice.

2 Corinthians 5:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

When we witness about Jesus, we are simply trying to reconcile them to a hard fact that won't change, which is the above.

The non-OSAS crowd does NOT believe 2 Cor. 5:19.

Whether they do nor not will prove to be irrelevant anyway.

You're right Smaller regarding 1 Corinthians 15.
If the resurrection did not happen, our faith is null and void.

Could you just concentrate on 1 Corinthians 15:2 ?
This is what I was referring to - not the whole chapter.

 

[GodsGrace]

I started to say in post #167 to Rollo that spirit-less 'scholars' have over thought this to the point of confusion for the rest of us. When in fact, as you point, out it's really quite elementary.


It means 'never fall from believing'.

I have to run off to work again. I will address the rest of your post later.

Re-read 167. Your last paragraph is simply and perfectly said.

If the meaning is "never fall from believing" then I agree.
Believing is the whole key.

As far as scholars confusing the issue: The issue didn't even exist until Calvin came along. Could all the others until then have been wrong? No. The early Fathers were closer to the Apostles and the truth and they never even considered that one could never lose their salvation.

W

 

[smaller]

You're right Smaller regarding 1 Corinthians 15.
If the resurrection did not happen, our faith is null and void.

Could you just concentrate on 1 Corinthians 15:2 ?
This is what I was referring to - not the whole chapter.

There is future tense salvation and there is our present tense "situation."

IN our present tense situation, Paul explains clearly in 1 Cor. 15, where we are presently at. We are purposefully, DIVINELY planted in weakness, corruption and dishonor in a natural body that is doomed to fail and to failure. It is not a permanent state. And in this present state, believers are not perfect and they do fall and they do forget. This does not ever mean that the sacrifice of Christ Himself is of no effect for any believer in whatever frame of mind they happen to be slanted in.

I think it may be important to realize what happens with people. We do wrestle with powers of darkness that are not us. And we do LOSE those battles. We are not always and only, in ourselves, winners. Quite the opposite, really. Believers themselves will deny to their dying breath, our present planting conditions. It is the very darkness that we are planted in that makes such denials. Yes, we are in dishonor, corruption and weakness. Like it or not. Agree with it or not. It's just a simple hard set of facts.

So if the non-OSAS crowd wants to see much better, they should observe what we deal with, rather than the person only. We always seek to save the person. And we always fight the powers of darkness that are not people.

Turn your sights of NON OSAS unto the powers of darkness, and CONDEMN them with His Light. And always lift up every single person in the Light of Christ's sacrifice for them.

Divide your fallen brothers from our adversary with the Light of the Gospel.

And condemn the powers of darkness.

This is our calling. Not to damn people, but to express the Eternal things of God in Christ that matters. Forgiveness, Love, Mercy, unmerited favor. These are the powers of God in Christ. Not to condemn, but to SAVE.

If we want to play the condemnation game, condemn the darkness that fights against our own selves.

John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

This IS going to happen, whether we like it or not, see it or not. It is only the power of darkness that is NOT people, that keeps us from seeing it. And it is God Himself that has capped this present world in this darkness, that we might come to understand The Mercy and Grace of Him expressed in Christ.

I see the Wisdom of God in Christ in these matters. The darkness doesn't impress me at all. It is a liar. JESUS IS LORD OF ALL. Period.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I KNOW people who believe they love the Lord and are following Him.
However, this doesn't manifest itself. They talk about church all the time and not the Lord. I miss not talking about the Lord, which is why I'm here.
They DO all the right things. They go to church, they do the works. I think they're trusting their works but they don't know about salvation through grace and the true meaning of the atonement, so does this mean they're lost?
I don't think so. I think they're saved - I believe Jesus saves us not something we get right.

So I don't see them having a love for the Lord that burns inside them.
Luke 24:32

But I have to believe they ARE saved because they THINK or BELIEVE they're doing the right thing.

Oh. And what wicked ways????
Have you been following me around!!!!!
LOL

Wondering

Why do you look at other people to decide about this?
Look at yourself.
You can never know anyone else the way you know yourself.
How do you feel?
Can you just walk away from Jesus Christ, who you claim you love?
Tell us about that?

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you look at other people to decide about this?
Look at yourself.
You can never know anyone else the way you know yourself.
How do you feel?
Can you just walk away from Jesus Christ, who you claim you love?
Tell us about that?

I look at other people because I'm concerned for them. I hope they are saved.
1 Corinthians 5:12
1 John 5:16

What about Mathew 18:15?

It doesn't seem wrong to me to think of others.
Also, I was trying to show you my point.

As for myself, I've quoted the following verse many times and I feel that I, personally, cannot walk away from our Lord.
John 6:68

Wondering