“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[Jethro Bodine]

This passage is not in reference to believers but to unbelievers, who instead of heeding the truth of which they now have learned ("received" or obtained knowledge) continue to "sin willfully" (v 26). "Receiving" in v 26 does not intend the sense of believing or accepting but merely obtaining the knowledge of the truth without choosing to believe it.

The passage completely defies any suggestion whatsoever that the author is warning those who have never believed. I'll show you:

" 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.

38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."
(Hebrews 10:22-39 NASB capitals and italics in original, bold mine)

It's crystal clear from the emboldened text in the passage that he is encouraging BELIEVERS, not those who have yet to believe, to not trample on the blood of Christ that sanctified them and as a result become subject to the wrath of God reserved for his enemies. The author is encouraging BELIEVERS to STAY on the course of faith he says they are surely on so they will be saved, not lost, on the Day of Judgment. It's impossible to refute that. The words are plain and clear: These are BELIEVERS he is exhorting to hold fast their profession of faith, or else be lost.

 

[Cygnus]

We've argued this before Cygnus and I'm not biting.

I just want to clarify a misconception of yours:
We do not remain saved because of our works.
We remain saved because of our belief in Jesus.

You do not believe in Jesus = You are NOT saved.
You believe in Jesus = You ARE saved.

These two conditions remain true for the rest of your life.
If you believe, you are saved. If you don't believe, you are not saved.

And if you believe, you will adhere to the teachings of Jesus.
If you want to call that "works" so be it.
I call it a joy to follow His techings the best way I know how.

W

W, you can believe whatever you want to believe...But when I read the bible it tells me you can't be snatched from Jesus hands. That's what it says. I didn't write it.

The question for you is..how mnay times can a person fall in and out of grace?

 

[Cygnus]

What keeps you saved is the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin, accessed and secured by believing in it:

"1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. " (Romans 4:1-2 NASB).

The spirit at work in the Protestant church at this present time says you have that forgiveness even if you reject the faith that accesses it. The distorted reasoning being, that would be works if your justification depended on you having faith to receive it. How ridiculous.

As I just told W....the bible says you can't be snatched from Jesus hand.

As far as faith goes....it's a gift from God. You can't have faith unless God gives it to you in the first place.

 

[Cygnus]

Hi Cygnus - I believe it stands to reason that whatever the saving source is keeps you saved:
"Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom thou hast given Me"
"Kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation"
"Him that is able to keep you from falling" (keep you from wanting to fall - Phl 2:13).
"He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him"

God encourage us!

How true. You can't be snatched.

 

[Cygnus]

Kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH.
No faith, no salvation.
Either BEFORE you're saved
or AFTER. Faith is ALWAYS required.

How much faith is required to keep one saved?

 

[smaller]

How true. You can't be snatched.

There is perhaps another working going on in the potentially snatched and they can't see what's happening:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The flesh will force believers not to see that "ye cannot do the things that ye would."

Believers who (usually end up) leaning entirely to the eternal security side of the equations have perhaps already learned that the flesh is not going to and is not capable of earning it's way into anything of the Spirit.

What did God say to Paul?

2 Cor. 12:
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

When we see the weakness and infirmities the flesh presents, it's quite an easy leap into His Sufficient Grace. But the flesh will go kicking and screaming, trying to get it's way in as well, by it's own works. And that is simply not going to happen.

 

[GodsGrace]

W, you can believe whatever you want to believe...But when I read the bible it tells me you can't be snatched from Jesus hands. That's what it says. I didn't write it.

The question for you is..how mnay times can a person fall in and out of grace?

I've answered the snatching out of hands concept many times.
Quick: No one can snatch you out of Jesus' hands.
But I can WALK OUT on my own.

You don't fall in and out of grace. You're under grace ALL THE TIME. I posted above that even the wicked receive God's grace. Here it is again:
Isaiah 26:10
Mathew 5:45
Acts 14:17

If anything, it's FAITH that you would fall in and out of. But you don't fall in and out of that either. You have faith, you become saved. What you're thinking about is sin. You sin. You sin every day. It doesn't let you fall out of grace or faith. You still have faith, but you've sinned.

It's when you ABANDON God and NO LONGER have FAITH in Him that you lose salvation.
Salvation is dependent on your faith. It is byGRACE but THROUGH FAITH that one is saved.
Ephesians 2:8

You have faith ---- You're saved
You don't have faith ----- You're not saved

Seems easy enough to me.

Again, as I've stated many times, the best verse of all is John 3.16

...THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM...

To believe in Him is to have faith in Him.
As long as you BELIEVE in Him you have FAITH in Him and you are saved.

No faith ----- No salvation, since it DEPENDS on FAITH.


W

 

[GodsGrace]

How much faith is required to keep one saved?

Two thoughts:

1. You need the faith of a mustard seed.
Mathew 14:20

2. You tell Jethro Bodine that faith is a gift from God and that HE gives it to you.

This is the number one reason why Calvin is wrong. If the above is true. then we don't have free will since we cannot accept or decline faith in God.

Do you believe we have free will?


W

 

[smaller]

I've answered the snatching out of hands concept many times.
Quick: No one can snatch you out of Jesus' hands.
But I can WALK OUT on my own.

Then you have done the snatching and in the process make the first statement not true, obviously.

No one includes ourselves as in "no one." No, not one. No one.

Scriptures tell us clearly, that there is no escape from Jesus, even in unbelief and particularly so with believers:

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

There is, in short, no escape.

 

[ezra]

Please stop making this personal among your fellow believers. Remain on topic, and do not stray to sidebar remarks toward others.

i thought it was personal from the beginning ..never the less i try remain on topic

 

[ezra]

Two thoughts:

1. You need the faith of a mustard seed.
Mathew 14:20

2. You tell Jethro Bodine that faith is a gift from God and that HE gives it to you.

This is the number one reason why Calvin is wrong. If the above is true. then we don't have free will since we cannot accept or decline faith in God.

Do you believe we have free will?


W

what does calvin have to do with the topic? calvinism believes only certain ones are elected / selected to be saved .if your not chosen you will never be saved. faith is a key our salvation is kept by the power of God . the assurance of our salvation is there written in Blood . i noted you keep saying depart or lose faith .
i know many who use to attend church seemed to really be in there for the Lord and no longer are. was they ever truly saved? no man has the authority to judge that. even though imo if they never return back they never was saved. those who hold tight to osas will disagree with me . when paul wrote work out our own salvation with fear and trembling . it takes a lot of work (not works} you have to study the word pray through. pray through what ? doubt unbelief fear of the unknown . then we have to battle the flesh of our feelings it goes on and on . you also posted about my personal belief and it being wrong in making it personal . yet you pretty much said the same thing. from your post you belong to a Nazarene Church . they hold to a good teaching like most.
what do you say about our Pentecostal bro and sis in the Lord? are they wrong also some mainly the apostolic believe tongues is a sign of salvation and be baptized in jesu name only. look at the church of Christ assembly of God . will southern baptist be in heaven? ..

 

[ezra]

I'll give it a try.
"Him that is able to keep you from falling" (keep you from wanting to fall - Phl 2:13).
First, the scripture does not say "keep you from wanting to fall." That is something you added. That's a "no-no."

Let me look at the passage. (It's from Jude, not Philippians)

First Jude says:
Jude 1:20-21 (NKJV) But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Here Jude exhorts the believers to "build themselves up in their faith" and to "pray in the Holy Spirit" in order to keep themselves in the love of God.
The letter closes with a doxology which begins "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy," (Jude 1:24)
Notice it says "ABLE TO keep."
It does not say "WILL keep" or "PROMISES to keep."

So, the first part (20-21) gave instructions to the believers. They were to;
(1) build themselves up in their faith;
(2) pray in the Holy Spirit; and
(3) KEEP THEMSELVES in the love of God.

The second part (24) says God is ABLE to keep us from stumbling but it does NOT say that will do so if we are not building ourselves up, praying in the Holy Spirit and keeping ourselves in God's love. It is NOT a guarantee that God will never let you fall. (If it was supposed to be understood that way, we would have to ask why then did God allow Adam to fall?) If youinsist on falling, God will not interfere with your free will to do so.


That is from 2Ti 1:11-12 (KJV) Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

What is not clearly stated in that bit of scripture is what it is that Paul has committed unto God. From the context, it would seem that the thing he has committed unto God is his calling as a preacher to the Gentiles because that is what he is talking about.

Paul was NOT talking about the "preservation of the saints". So it is totally false exegesis to lift that verse out of its context and try to make it say something that Paul wasn't even talking about.

You seem to have taken it to mean that Paul is persuaded that what God is able to keep is Paul's salvation.
But Paul specifically stated that he was not convinced that his salvation was assured.

He said: PHP 3:7-14 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

That sounds a lot like Paul was working out his salvation in fear and trembling.


Sure: Assurance; noun
1. a positive declaration intended to give confidence
2. promise or pledge; guaranty; surety
3. full confidence; freedom from doubt; certainty
www.dictionary.com/

Now it's you turn. I would like you to explain the word "if."
What does it mean in the following verses?

COL 1:21-23 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:12-14 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

iakov the fool

if there will always be a IF just like there will always be a assurance of our salvation kept by the power of God through faith . it is of no matter to me if you agree with the way i believe in a personal way .there are many questions can we or can we not . we use scriptures to back our belief . the real answer or the can or can not lose salvation is we simply do not know beyond a shadow of doubt.there is valid scriptures to support both sides .
the main belief i will disagree with as per Christianity and that is calvinism .yes they are just as saved as the next.but i disagree with there divine election .it almost a 3 step program to be saved.. this is how it has to be since we really dont know % 100 sure.. i dont have any plans on finding out. i may sin not obey God but i have no intention of walking away not repenting . i am secure with my salvation. BUT NO PLACE IN THE WORD does it give a license to sin or reason to how about you?

 

[chessman]

It's crystal clear from the emboldened text in the passage that he is encouraging BELIEVERS

Of course. Hebrew believers at that.
No wonder he has the confidence to say "we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

You simply don't have any confidence to say such as that about any unbeliever.

It's crystal clear from the emboldened text in the passage that he is encouraging BELIEVERS, not those who have yet to believe, to not trample on the blood of Chris

Yes he is encouraging believers, former Hebrew believers. So what exactly do you think he means by "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace"? And more importantly, what Scripture here leads you to that conclusion?

These are BELIEVERS he is exhorting to hold fast their profession of faith, or else be lost.

Where exactly does he say "or else be lost"? If it's so "crystal clear" just post the verse and underline it please.

 

[smaller]

All of the conversations along these lines revolve around a couple of fairly simple premises when it comes to understanding Gods Words.

There is no condemnation.
There is condemnation.

The fact of the matter is there is both. That's why these conversations become quickly problematic. Believers invariably try to squeeze in on only one side of the equations/ledgers. Or they try to invoke the side they don't like or care to hear unto others and dodge it themselves.

Here is the condemnation of God in Christ that factually resides upon all flesh of mankind. There is no truthful avoiding of this sight IF one is "in Truth."

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Those who jump around giddily proclaiming only LIFE forget that part of the equation, overlook that part of the equation, deny that part of the equation, heap up that side of the equation only to others, but NEVER take it upon their own flesh. And that is actually an operation of sin in the flesh, seeking it's false/lying justifications under the auspices of Gods Words, which same Words have provided ZERO space for wiggle room.

That does not equate however to believers losing their eternal salvation. The question is more along the lines of "what should be done with that side of the equation?"

Paul gives us a clear analogy of how this works, proving eternal judgment unto eternal damnation DID apply to his own flesh, and pinpoints the fact that sin is directly associated to the DEVIL (or in his case a messenger of same.)

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Anyone should be readily able to see that in the above there are actually TWO parties involved with the equations of MAN in scripture. There is man. And there is the adversary, operating in the flesh of man.

John shows this same/identical principle of WORD fact here:

1 John 3:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus shows the same principle of Word fact, here:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

All of these scriptures and many many more in the N.T. show this to be a fact of the Word. This fact is verified again and again, in Acts 26:18, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 9:18-24, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 2 Tim. 2:20-21.

Not to mention the literal "thousands" of examples of devils/Satan being IN man in the N.T. Gospels. Satan speaking through Peter. Satan entering Judas. An entire LEGION of devils in a single man. Devils crying out from people as Jesus walked among the people. This principle is one of the clearest most open disclosures in all of scripture. Yet seldom factored into the scriptural equations and applied PERSONALLY.

The short lesson here is this. IF any believer reads the Word and only sees themselves in the equations, they are being blinded by the adversary operating in the flesh. That is NOT how scripture is put together.

Scripture addresses, in every case of applications, both MANKIND and DEVILKIND.

And this presents a very certain paradox. What applies to us unto LIFE, applies to them unto DEATH. Same Word. Two entirely different workings to the respective parties.

This is why believers should be led to put themselves under the ENTIRE Word and counsel of God. Not just the stuff we like. And this Jesus shows us in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4.

We should find LIFE in Gods Words of DEATH when we understand those Words are meant for our enemies, our adversaries in the flesh.

It is quite pointless to see any of these matters as "mancentric" i.e. only addressing man. This is not the case. Scripture also addresses these parties IN MAN:

Ephesians 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

If we think this problem is only a problem of "other people" we are missing the point entirely. It's not. WE wrestle these operations and operators in our own FLESH. Just as scriptures show us.

So, where we read this about God:

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

The same Word that lifted Moses and the children of Israel out of slaveship in Egypt, provoked the DEVIL in the heart of pharaoh to RESIST and PURSUE them. How do we know that the devil was IN the flesh of pharaoh? Because The Word tells us this was so: Ezekiel 29:3.

And it was GOD HIMSELF who raised that "invisible enemy" and "invisible resisting power" in order to show HIS OWN POWER over it in raising same. Romans 9:17. Just as God Himself raised upon many enemies to Israel. These are all "external pictures" of an INTERNAL reality of the flesh.

The same Word that divided the Red Sea so that the children of Israel passed over safely, was also the same Word that collapsed upon their enemies.

I hope that a few of you come to see the Wisdom of God in these matters. But the other working/workers will always resist and even be empowered by these kinds of disclosures. 1 Cor. 15:56. And that also is part of Gods Own Plan.

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't know if you refer much to theological commentators

I refer to the early church fathers who wrote before the East-West schism and way before the schisms inflicted on the body of Christ by the so-called "protestant reformers." They are the ones who answered all the questions and refuted all the heresies that continue to resurface again and again as Satan continues his work to divide the Kingdom of God against itself.

Frankly, I take any "reformed Protestant" commentary with a healthy dose of salt and will continue to do so until someone can give me a clear, scriptural answer to the question; "Where in the scripture is there any warrant for any group to separate themselves from the church that Jesus established and to reform Christianity according to their own personal views?"

Jesus prayed "Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one." (John 17:11) and "...that they may be one even as we are one," (John 17:22.) The fruit of the Protestant "reforming" is the Kingdom of God being splintered into tens of thousands of sects and the multiplication of sects continues unabated. That behavior is in direct conflict with Jesus' desire expresses at John 17.

Therefore, I am somewhat leery of what Protestant Reformed commentators have to offer. (Though some are quite good IMHO.) When I have thoroughly digested what the early church taught......well, that won't happen in my lifetime. I don't have that much time left.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

if there will always be a IF just like there will always be a assurance of our salvation

That is illogical.
The word "if" introduces a conditional outcome.
"Assurance" refers to an UNconditional outcome.
You cannot have both of them any more than you can go north and south at the same time.

The inspired, inerrant, infallible, sola scriptura clearly and regularly states that one's eternal station is dependent upon their continuing in the faith. One's salvation is assured ONLY IF one continues in the faith. (That requires being faithful.)
Scripture also clearly states that, IF someone falls away from the faith then their eternal place will be in hell.

Those facts are clearly stated in scripture.
The following are to examples of scripture stating that your salvation is CONDITIONAL based on your faithfulness.

(1) JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(3)1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

(4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

(5) COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

(6) HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

(7) HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting himto public disgrace.

(8) PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

(9)2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

(10) 2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

(11) EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If one believes in vain, that's believing with your head and not your heart.
Have you ever heard that before?
Have you ever heard it said that when you believe with your head and not your heart, then you're not really saved?
Once you have understood the true meaning on these verses, then and only then do the other verses used by non-OSAS people begin to make sense.

The believing in vain that Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15:2 is not the fake believing of the insincere person. He explains that we are saved because we believe in a gospel that has a risen Christ, otherwise, if he is not risen the believing we have done is in vain. Paul explains this himself right in the passage:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

13 ...if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."
(1 Corinthians 15:1-2,13-18 NASB bold and underline mine)

See? He isn't saying in verses 1 & 2 that you aren't saved if you believed with a fake faith. He's saying you are saved by the gospel unless Christ has not really risen from the dead. If that were true--that there is no resurrection of the dead--then Christ is not risen and your faith in the gospel of a risen savior is vain, because there's no such thing. You are still lost in your sins.

But, just for argument's sake let's say Paul means you are saved unless you had a fake, insincere faith, not a real one. How does that change the condition he lays out in verse 2 that says you are (presently) saved IF you (presently) hold fast the word of the gospel he preached?

 

[smaller]

Frankly, I take any "reformed Protestant" commentary with a healthy dose of salt and will continue to do so until someone can give me a clear, scriptural answer to the question; "Where in the scripture is there any warrant for any group to separate themselves from the church that Jesus established and to reform Christianity according to their own personal views?"

And who says their views are not also personal? The presumption that is put in play in such claims is that subsequent lineage had thee sole and only credible unchallengable sights. And that was and never will be the case. We all view scriptures from the seat of our respective imperfections in the flesh, which those same claimants have and I might add, have a very hard time fessing up to. Claims of Perfect/Sole and only authority are not given to men, but to God in Christ, Alone. Is any of us "the same as Christ" currently? No. Were these believers of the past the "same as Christ?" No. Absolutely not. Therefore such sole/sect Perfect understanding claims by any sect are not truthful and can not possibly be truthful.

Jesus prayed "Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one." (John 17:11) and "...that they may be one even as we are one," (John 17:22.) The fruit of the Protestant "reforming" is the Kingdom of God being splintered into tens of thousands of sects and the multiplication of sects continues unabated. That behavior is in direct conflict with Jesus' desire expresses at John 17.

The promise of Divisions is a Divine Promise that has been played out in the churches, ALL. The works of Satan exist in every church of Rev. 2-3 and thereby, through extensions, to every church and every sect today.

Protestants at least recognize the scriptural frailties aka false claims of self proclaimed "Perfect leaders with Perfect only understandings" and reject such notions.

I'm only surprised that any believer "really" believes such notions to begin with. We all know well enough by now that none of us, individually or in groups are currently Perfect or that any other members of the past churches were capital P Perfect. None of the Apostles claimed that seat for themselves, acknowledging openly, partial sights. Therefore the notions of A Perfect Church is off the table.

That is simply not true and won't be true until we are all 'changed.' Phil. 3:21.

Until that time however God Himself has promised to keep the sin indwelling the flesh and the evil present within man DIVIDED and not joined.

We should be aligned in the truth of our own imperfections. But this is too much for the pride of man to deal with.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know a good self-help cd you can buy and listen to it as you sleep at night.
It will make you feel as if you are waking up in heaven every day.
I highly recommend it.

If it's Basil and the Swamp Water Boys, I'll take it!
I loves those guys!
They have an annointin'.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If it's Basil and the Swamp Water Boys, I'll take it!
I loves those guys!
They have an annointin'.

Where's the like button?
No like button!
Those mods, always causing trouble.
Us intelligent people can't communicate right!