“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[GodsGrace]

still waiting on the person to say they have the correct doctrine. i say i have the correct doctrine for MY PERSONAL BELIEF

I've read your posts to me Ezra.
I'm not here to argue with you. It's not my style.
You could believe what you want to believe but since we're in Apologetics and Theology I would like to say the following:

1. We're not ALLOWED to have our OWN PERSONAL BELIEFS. Christianity has a specific set of beliefs that we are to adhere to. What if we all went around believing whatever we want to? Jesus came here to earth to show us and teach us the correct way to live. He didn't come here so we could each believe whatever we want to.

There is SOLA SCRIPTURA which is great. The bible is our book of rules. We study it, we follow what it says. But how could we be sure what it says? We must go to a church and learn. I grew up Catholic and know that doctrine - I've become Protestant and know this doctrine. I was taught by a Nazarene church that used the bible for its authority.

Then there is SOLO SCRIPTURA which is not good. This is a person who stays at home, reads his bible and "depends on the Holy Spirit" for translation, exegesis, and doctrine. We are not to be left to our own means like this.

Jesus gave the Apostles the Great Commiission in Mathew 28:19-20. He gave them the authority to go and teach to observe all that He taught. He even told them to wait till the Holy Spirit was received so that they might have the power to do this.

Have you studied the early church? The writings of the persons who either knew an Apostle or knew someone that did? This is a good study to do. You would find that the early church believed in WORKS. You would find that they did not know the concept of being "saved" the way we do today. A concept first conceived int he 1800's.

You would also find that for 1,500 years the church believed in loss of salvation. It was not until John Calvin that the concept of OSAS came into being. Would you say that all the other theologians of the church were dumb and we had to wait for Calvin to shine a bright light onto the bible? Certainly not. HE is the one who was different in his way of thinking.

You mention Hebrews 10 in one of your posts to me in post no. 115:
Let us draw near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith. Heb. 10:22

Verse 20 says that Jesus inaugurated this new living way through His flesh. What if we don't believe in this inauguration or in His flesh?

Verse 23 says that we are to HOLD FAST the confession of our hope without wavering.

When the N.T. is read as a complete book and verses are not plucked out, it becomes clear that Jesus meant for us to CONTINUE in our faith and to live a Christianly life. He DID NOT say to just have some type of belief in Him and we would be saved.

I'm not condemning you for your beliefs, but you seem to be doing that to me.

W

 

[smaller]

What if I stop believing in Christ?
Am i still saved?

The god of this world continues to blind believers to the Gospel. That doesn't mean he wins in the end. Some might even consider that such only adds significantly to the judgment of the devil at the end.

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Also, anyone who has made themselves sinless enough to be saved, please raise your hand.

 

[Jim Parker]

1. We're not ALLOWED to have our OWN PERSONAL BELIEFS. Christianity has a specific set of beliefs that we are to adhere to.

Thank you!!!
That is exactly right.
Everyone seems to think that just because they have and opinion, that opinion must be just as valid as anyone else's. WRONGGGG!!!
The CHURCH, which is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Tim 3:15 RSV), set the standards during the first 800 years.
(Edited personal remark)
Thank you.

iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

My tongue talking wife did.
And I can certainly share what happened as a result, but I'm not going to.

Maybe she just didn't care for what she was taught?

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[smaller]

(Edited out quote of deleted post)
Believing that you can be lost in order to be saved doesn't make much scriptural sense to a lot of believers.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[smaller]

Thank you!!!
That is exactly right.
Everyone seems to think that just because they have and opinion, that opinion must be just as valid as anyone else's. WRONGGGG!!!
The CHURCH, which is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Tim 3:15 RSV), set the standards during the first 800 years.
(Edited out personal remark)
Thank you.

iakov the fool

(Edited out reference to deleted text)

Acts 5:29
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Galatians 6:4
But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

 

[ezra]

I've read your posts to me Ezra.
I'm not here to argue with you. It's not my style.
You could believe what you want to believe but since we're in Apologetics and Theology I would like to say the following:

1. We're not ALLOWED to have our OWN PERSONAL BELIEFS. Christianity has a specific set of beliefs that we are to adhere to. What if we all went around believing whatever we want to? Jesus came here to earth to show us and teach us the correct way to live. He didn't come here so we could each believe whatever we want to.

There is SOLA SCRIPTURA which is great. The bible is our book of rules. We study it, we follow what it says. But how could we be sure what it says? We must go to a church and learn. I grew up Catholic and know that doctrine - I've become Protestant and know this doctrine. I was taught by a Nazarene church that used the bible for its authority.

Then there is SOLO SCRIPTURA which is not good. This is a person who stays at home, reads his bible and "depends on the Holy Spirit" for translation, exegesis, and doctrine. We are not to be left to our own means like this.

Jesus gave the Apostles the Great Commiission in Mathew 28:19-20. He gave them the authority to go and teach to observe all that He taught. He even told them to wait till the Holy Spirit was received so that they might have the power to do this.

Have you studied the early church? The writings of the persons who either knew an Apostle or knew someone that did? This is a good study to do. You would find that the early church believed in WORKS. You would find that they did not know the concept of being "saved" the way we do today. A concept first conceived int he 1800's.

You would also find that for 1,500 years the church believed in loss of salvation. It was not until John Calvin that the concept of OSAS came into being. Would you say that all the other theologians of the church were dumb and we had to wait for Calvin to shine a bright light onto the bible? Certainly not. HE is the one who was different in his way of thinking.

You mention Hebrews 10 in one of your posts to me in post no. 115:
Let us draw near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith. Heb. 10:22

Verse 20 says that Jesus inaugurated this new living way through His flesh. What if we don't believe in this inauguration or in His flesh?

Verse 23 says that we are to HOLD FAST the confession of our hope without wavering.

When the N.T. is read as a complete book and verses are not plucked out, it becomes clear that Jesus meant for us to CONTINUE in our faith and to live a Christianly life. He DID NOT say to just have some type of belief in Him and we would be saved.

I'm not condemning you for your beliefs, but you seem to be doing that to me.

W

well thank you for that brief what ever it was. i did notice you how ever never told me who had the correct belief. lets break it down into groups Pentecostals believe the baptism of the holy spirit is the evidence of speaking in tongues .granted with them there is more than just speaking in tongues my point is in
1 Corinthians 12:13King James Version (KJV)
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. so i disagree with that. lets look at the baptist there is many of them general and southern ,missionary , independent fundamentalist. last 3 believe in eternal security the general baptist do not... which of the 4 has the correct teaching? we also have the american and free will baptist . then we have the Methodist along with Presbyterian some of them are reformed . so which one would you say is correct mind you all these believe in being born again . your gnat straining at the word assurance i posted twice what the definition is and you not once have touched that. i am allowed to believe how i want .the Body of Christ is such a diverse body do you believe in a universal Church . you need to show me where i have

but you seem to be doing that to me.

you used the word seemed which could mean maybe maybe not or not sure possibility.

Jesus meant for us to CONTINUE in our faith and to live a Christianly life.

hmm i have continued in the faith not once have i stopped in the 20 or so years .

He DID NOT say to just have some type of belief in Him and we would be saved.

i have a know so salvation how about you. so with all respect if you will show me who has the correct doctrine .i will retract

 

[netchaplain]

....as long as you keep believing.
Stop believing and you no longer have anything to look forward to but the wrath of God reserved for his enemies:

"29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:29-31 NASB capitals in original)

This passage is not in reference to believers but to unbelievers, who instead of heeding the truth of which they now have learned ("received" or obtained knowledge) continue to "sin willfully" (v 26). "Receiving" in v 26 does not intend the sense of believing or accepting but merely obtaining the knowledge of the truth without choosing to believe it. The fact of knowing the truth incurs responsibility (John 15:22, 24); the act of not accepting the truth (unbelief) incurs guilt.

 

[GodsGrace]

well thank you for that brief what ever it was. i did notice you how ever never told me who had the correct belief. lets break it down into groups Pentecostals believe the baptism of the holy spirit is the evidence of speaking in tongues .granted with them there is more than just speaking in tongues my point is in
1 Corinthians 12:13King James Version (KJV)
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. so i disagree with that. lets look at the baptist there is many of them general and southern ,missionary , independent fundamentalist. last 3 believe in eternal security the general baptist do not... which of the 4 has the correct teaching? we also have the american and free will baptist . then we have the Methodist along with Presbyterian some of them are reformed . so which one would you say is correct mind you all these believe in being born again . your gnat straining at the word assurance i posted twice what the definition is and you not once have touched that. i am allowed to believe how i want .the Body of Christ is such a diverse body do you believe in a universal Church . you need to show me where i have you used the word seemed which could mean maybe maybe not or not sure possibility. hmm i have continued in the faith not once have i stopped in the 20 or so years . i have a know so salvation how about you. so with all respect if you will show me who has the correct doctrine .i will retract

I am NOT quoting scripture back and forth.
I could not do better than Jethro Bodine or Jim Parker.

Instead in my post no. 123 I explained to you WHY I believe that salvation could be lost.

If you do not understand what I wrote, I'm sorry but I could not state it in a clearer manner than I already have.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

sure thing buddy i seen nothing presented but that i was allegedly wrong. since you have a better understanding of scriptures please explain these "Kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation"
"Him that is able to keep you from falling" (keep you from wanting to fall - Phl 2:13).
"He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him" i also would like you to explain assurance .

Kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH.
No faith, no salvation.
Either BEFORE you're saved
or AFTER. Faith is ALWAYS required.

 

[ezra]

WHY I believe that salvation could be lost.

so you can personally believe ?

1. We're not ALLOWED to have our OWN PERSONAL BELIEFS. Christianity has a specific set of beliefs that we are to adhere to. What if we all went around believing whatever we want to? Jesus came here to earth to show us and teach us the correct way to live. He didn't come here so we could each believe whatever we want to.

There is SOLA SCRIPTURA which is great. The bible is our book of rules. We study it, we follow what it says. But how could we be sure what it says? We must go to a church and learn. I grew up Catholic and know that doctrine - I've become Protestant and know this doctrine. I was taught by a Nazarene church that used the bible for its authority.

Then there is SOLO SCRIPTURA which is not good. This is a person who stays at home, reads his bible and "depends on the Holy Spirit" for translation, exegesis, and doctrine. We are not to be left to our own means like this.

its ok for you but not me? please remember these are your words .might i also add i told you the reason why i do. but you said it was wrong.. nothing wrong with the Nazarene i am not catholic . all true churches use the Bible as authority

 

[ezra]

Kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH.
No faith, no salvation.
Either BEFORE you're saved
or AFTER. Faith is ALWAYS required.

never disagreed i know a lot who use to be in church professed salvation . but they have faith in Christ just don,t attend church .next explain assurance

 

[ezra]

Good grief. Why are people so afraid to be sure of what the Bible plainly says? Who can't read the plain words of scripture?

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Are you that way with the gospel message of Jesus? Do you say it's right for your personal belief but the rest of us have to believe what's right for us?

good question when the Bible tells us we can be secure in our salvation ..your last question does not deserve a reply . your adding into what i posted.

As for traditional OSAS, it can't prove that the one who believes can never stop believing,

you seem to focus on stop believing i know people who profess they use to be saved. lives like the devil but still believes what the Bible says. they never stopped believing . just stopped attending Church and no longer interested in a personal relationship with Christ

 

[Jethro Bodine]

good question when the Bible tells us we can be secure in our salvation

If you're paying attention, that is not what is in debate. Of course salvation is secure.
FAITH is the security of salvation. Faith is what secures the sure salvation found in Jesus Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

sure thing buddy i seen nothing presented but that i was allegedly wrong. since you have a better understanding of scriptures please explain these "Kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation"
"Him that is able to keep you from falling" (keep you from wanting to fall - Phl 2:13).
"He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him" i also would like you to explain assurance .

I'll give it a try.
"Him that is able to keep you from falling" (keep you from wanting to fall - Phl 2:13).
First, the scripture does not say "keep you from wanting to fall." That is something you added. That's a "no-no."

Let me look at the passage. (It's from Jude, not Philippians)

First Jude says:
Jude 1:20-21 (NKJV) But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Here Jude exhorts the believers to "build themselves up in their faith" and to "pray in the Holy Spirit" in order to keep themselves in the love of God.
The letter closes with a doxology which begins "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy," (Jude 1:24)
Notice it says "ABLE TO keep."
It does not say "WILL keep" or "PROMISES to keep."

So, the first part (20-21) gave instructions to the believers. They were to;
(1) build themselves up in their faith;
(2) pray in the Holy Spirit; and
(3) KEEP THEMSELVES in the love of God.

The second part (24) says God is ABLE to keep us from stumbling but it does NOT say that will do so if we are not building ourselves up, praying in the Holy Spirit and keeping ourselves in God's love. It is NOT a guarantee that God will never let you fall. (If it was supposed to be understood that way, we would have to ask why then did God allow Adam to fall?) If youinsist on falling, God will not interfere with your free will to do so.

"He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him"

That is from 2Ti 1:11-12 (KJV) Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

What is not clearly stated in that bit of scripture is what it is that Paul has committed unto God. From the context, it would seem that the thing he has committed unto God is his calling as a preacher to the Gentiles because that is what he is talking about.

Paul was NOT talking about the "preservation of the saints". So it is totally false exegesis to lift that verse out of its context and try to make it say something that Paul wasn't even talking about.

You seem to have taken it to mean that Paul is persuaded that what God is able to keep is Paul's salvation.
But Paul specifically stated that he was not convinced that his salvation was assured.

He said: PHP 3:7-14 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

That sounds a lot like Paul was working out his salvation in fear and trembling.

i also would like you to explain assurance .

Sure: Assurance; noun
1. a positive declaration intended to give confidence
2. promise or pledge; guaranty; surety
3. full confidence; freedom from doubt; certainty
www.dictionary.com/

Now it's you turn. I would like you to explain the word "if."
What does it mean in the following verses?

COL 1:21-23 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:12-14 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

FAITH is the security of salvation.

That's right!
But there's an "if".
COL 1:21-23 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

 

[netchaplain]

What is not clearly stated in that bit of scripture is what it is that Paul has committed unto God. From the context, it would seem that the thing he has committed unto God is his calling as a preacher to the Gentiles because that is what he is talking about.

I believe the subject of 1Tim 1:12 is referencing his personal faith in salvation ("I know whom I have believed"), and "until that day" I believe references the Lord's return (2Tim 4:8 "that day" which is "His appearing"). The reason why he "suffered these things" was due to him being "appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles" in the preceding verse, which ends this thought after, "For this reason I also suffer these things." The phrase "nevertheless" introduces a different thought relating to his personal interest concerning his faith ("whom I have believed").

I don't know if you refer much to theological commentators but the ones I use all agree that the commission Paul is referencing is the "keeping" of his personal life, faith and salvation into God's hands. Myself, I know no other source to trust to keep me in salvation than God.

John Gill:
That which I have committed unto Him against that day.
"It seems best of all to interpret it . . . rather of his precious and immortal soul, and the eternal welfare and salvation of it: and the act of committing it to Christ, designs his giving himself to Him, leaving himself with Him, trusting in Him for eternal life and salvation, believing He was able to save him to the uttermost; even unto the day of death, when he hoped to be with him, which is far better than to be in this world; and unto the day of the resurrection, when both soul and body will be glorified with him; and to the day of judgment, when the crown of righteousness will be received from his hands."

Jamieson, Faussett, and Brown:
That which I have committed unto Him--Greek, "my deposit"; the body, soul, and spirit, which I have deposited in God's safe keeping (1Th 5:23; 1Pe 4:19). So Christ Himself in dying (Lu 23:46). "God deposits with us His word; we deposit with God our spirit" [GROTIUS]. There is one deposit (His revelation) committed by God to us, which we ought to keep (2Ti 1:13, 14) and transmit to others (2Ti 2:2); there is another committed by God to us, which we should commit to His keeping, namely, ourselves and our heavenly portion.

B. W. Johnson’s Bible Commentary:
That which I have committed unto Him. "His whole interests, his life, body, soul and spirit. He leaves all in God's hands with perfect confidence. God's hands with perfect confidence."

I feel it only fair to include this:
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom 8:39, 29).

Blessings!

 

[ezra]

The Greek for "abide" (G3306, Strong's) is the same word for "dwelling place" or "place of abode," thus "in Me" in these passages intends dwelling place, thus "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me," can be interpreted "Dwell in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself ("itself" - not with Christ but is alone), except it dwells in the vine, etc. John 6:56; 14:10; 1John 3:24; 4:12-16

Nobody can show they are in Christ if He is not there abode or placing of dwelling!

post like this seldom are discussed in a civil manner.

 

[Mike]

Please stop making this personal among your fellow believers. Remain on topic, and do not stray to sidebar remarks toward others.

 

[chessman]

2Ti 1:11-12 (KJV)
What is not clearly stated in that bit of scripture is what it is that Paul has committed unto God. From the context, it would seem that the thing he has committed unto God is his calling as a preacher to the Gentiles because that is what he is talking about.

Sure it is clearly stated what (or more accurately "whom" it is Paul "committed unto Him against the day". And it's not Paul's calling as a preacher, apostle and teacher to the Gentiles for multiple obvious Textual reasons. Not the least of which is the obviuos fact that Paul died almost 2,000 years ago and thus his 'preaching to the Gentiles' was not kept till "That Day", meaning Judgment Day (see v18). Also see verse 4:8 for what Paul meant by "that day" and whom keeps "us".

2 Timothy 4:8 (LEB) Finally, the crown of righteousness is reserved for me, that the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but also to all who have loved his appearing. ​

Hmm, imagine that, "All who have loved His appearing" have reserved for us "the crown of righteousness". Not most all, not many, not a few but ALL who have loved (past tense) His appearing. i.e. OSAS plain and clear, via the Text not speculation. Some people believe what Paul said in verse 4:8, some don't. But the fact is, Paul says ALL who have loved His Appearing have reserved for them a crown of righteousness.

In verse 1:12 Paul is speaking of:

1 a "whom", not a calling.
[Namely, His and Timothy's and both of their ancestors' "Saviour Jesus Christ", see v5, v10, etc.]

2. "the good deposit", v14

3. the promise of life which is in (kept/reserved/deposited) Christ Jesus through the will of God, v1

4. the sincere faith in you, which lived first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am convinced that is in you also, v5
[the "whom" of v12 lived in them and ALL others too who have loved His appearing. Namely a sincere faith, not a vain faith]

5. the gift of God that is in you, v6

6. a spirit of power and love and self-discipline, v7

7. the testimony about our Lord

8. the gospel

9. the power of God,

10. grace that was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

11. the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ

12. immortality through the gospel

These 12 are the things (the whom) that I have committed unto him against that day