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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Growth “Sinning Willfully”
- Thread starter netchaplain
- Start date
netchaplain
Member
That's good insight Deborah and is the point of the thread, not sinning intentionally. If one who has the Spirit within to oppose the sinful nature (Gal 5:17), and the Father to "work in you" (Phil 2:13), there will soon be no habitual sins, because there will be no intentional sins, i.e. those who are truly part of the Church and Body of Christ (true believers, not just professors) will not intentionally sin.
I like what you just said there, "There will soon be no habitual sins..." and further like the Scriptures you quote, "For it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do..."
I've heard it as "both the will and the way" but the meaning is similar. He works stuff into us. The stuff of righteousness. The will to do well before Him -AND- the ability to do it (the way). This can take time. For instance:
(can you tell there's a story coming? -- you can? It's because you know me, is why)
View attachment 4683
So there was once a young man who was interested in what had been happening with his best friend. His best friend had been recently very excited to read the bible and had been going off the deep end somewhat. He was speaking of strange things. Vials, scrolls being opened, horses of a different colors, and other stuff too... Something about a prophecy of Daniel? So yeah, the friend of the young man had been going off the deep end.
And when the young man spoke (out of concern) to his friend he was somehow drawn to a contagious enthusiasm that seemed to emanate from best friend. There was something else different too. Something that sounded like hope. So when he was asked to go to church and check some stuff out? What could he do? I mean, it was for the sake of his friend, right?
The church was of a fundamentalist :shock nature but that didn't really concern the young man. What did he, at the tender age of 17 know of this? All he knew was that there seemed to be something that he wanted there. The members of the church were youthful and their exuberance and love for the things that Jesus taught was obvious. What was also obvious was that they acted like they really loved each other. That was incredible.
So the young man and his best friend began a habit of attending this church which was, by the way, also the home of a bible college. One thing lead to another and they enrolled. But that's not the really neat thing. No. It was something that they read in the bible. They had traded their drug and alcohol sessions for bible study sessions. They (the young man and his best friend) were reading the gospels one day and they came across something rather special. It seemed like a promise that was too good to be true! "If any of you agree as touching..." Yeah. That one.
SO what was there to do? With a gleam in his eye, the young man sought the eye of his friend. Would it be possible that they could "agree as touching" ?? Maybe. But it would have to be a very special request. A very special prayer indeed. So the first thing they agreed to was that they needed help from God in forming the right-request. Then, realizing that they had been given something greater than a signed blank-check drawn on the account of a multi-millionaire, they set out to ask (as touching) the perfect, the very perfect thing.
There was a quick pow-wow. They brain-stormed the idea. Lots of ideas. All the while, the excitement of two kids in a candy store and unlimited funding carried them along. They didn't know it then, but God was giving them the Faith they needed to act on His promise. The Holy Spirit was with them and the prayer that they agreed to ask?
They threw in the "here on this earth, before we die," part because they wanted to pin God down and didn't want any "pie in the sky" stuff. Silly little legal-eagle. Little did they know that God wanted what they asked for even more for them then they did. The prayer was offered. That was the moment that, if you were to ask the young man about, he would say, "I was baptized in the Holy Spirit then, right then." Both he and his friend. They were caught up to the heavenlies (and I don't know of any better way to say it than that). They looked at each other, sought each other's eye as if to say, "Is this really happening?? Are you experiencing this too??"
They had agreed as touching. Where there were two or more of us... there also ---> Jesus --> even God was with them in a mighty way.
My friend said later, "I think that the Holy Spirit fell right then by way of confirmation -- showing us that He had heard our prayer."
So then, after a lifetime of sin, after a lifetime of resisting God and all his goodness, stand I. Yes, He can get even me to a place of holiness (being like Him - apart from sin utterly) but that does not mean that it's easy (in my experience). It (the work of God) is also not done. But I do see, have seen, the general direction of these workings and praise Him for it. Oh, and my friend? This one has a full boat of witnesses to the conversion to Christianity. I've witnessed it. Witnessed it with great care and I plan on testifying on his behalf if and when the time comes. But as to me? This is what I may say, "Yea! Though He slay me, YET will I praise HIM! God is good. He is almost unbelievably good and I'm here to tell you! Indeed." But that doesn't mean that I've stopped sinning, or maybe a more 'graceful' way of saying the same thing is that I've not stopped my struggle against sin.
There is time still before I die. I continue to struggle against sin. Will continue. But, and here's the thing. He is faithful -AND- just to forgive us --AND-- to cleanse (purge) us. We need only continue with him. I trust Jesus to do the work and understand that it is for my eternal benefit. How good is that?
~Sparrow
I've heard it as "both the will and the way" but the meaning is similar. He works stuff into us. The stuff of righteousness. The will to do well before Him -AND- the ability to do it (the way). This can take time. For instance:
(can you tell there's a story coming? -- you can? It's because you know me, is why) View attachment 4683
So there was once a young man who was interested in what had been happening with his best friend. His best friend had been recently very excited to read the bible and had been going off the deep end somewhat. He was speaking of strange things. Vials, scrolls being opened, horses of a different colors, and other stuff too... Something about a prophecy of Daniel? So yeah, the friend of the young man had been going off the deep end.
And when the young man spoke (out of concern) to his friend he was somehow drawn to a contagious enthusiasm that seemed to emanate from best friend. There was something else different too. Something that sounded like hope. So when he was asked to go to church and check some stuff out? What could he do? I mean, it was for the sake of his friend, right?
The church was of a fundamentalist :shock nature but that didn't really concern the young man. What did he, at the tender age of 17 know of this? All he knew was that there seemed to be something that he wanted there. The members of the church were youthful and their exuberance and love for the things that Jesus taught was obvious. What was also obvious was that they acted like they really loved each other. That was incredible.
So the young man and his best friend began a habit of attending this church which was, by the way, also the home of a bible college. One thing lead to another and they enrolled. But that's not the really neat thing. No. It was something that they read in the bible. They had traded their drug and alcohol sessions for bible study sessions. They (the young man and his best friend) were reading the gospels one day and they came across something rather special. It seemed like a promise that was too good to be true! "If any of you agree as touching..." Yeah. That one.
SO what was there to do? With a gleam in his eye, the young man sought the eye of his friend. Would it be possible that they could "agree as touching" ?? Maybe. But it would have to be a very special request. A very special prayer indeed. So the first thing they agreed to was that they needed help from God in forming the right-request. Then, realizing that they had been given something greater than a signed blank-check drawn on the account of a multi-millionaire, they set out to ask (as touching) the perfect, the very perfect thing.
There was a quick pow-wow. They brain-stormed the idea. Lots of ideas. All the while, the excitement of two kids in a candy store and unlimited funding carried them along. They didn't know it then, but God was giving them the Faith they needed to act on His promise. The Holy Spirit was with them and the prayer that they agreed to ask?
Agreed as touching said:
They threw in the "here on this earth, before we die," part because they wanted to pin God down and didn't want any "pie in the sky" stuff. Silly little legal-eagle. Little did they know that God wanted what they asked for even more for them then they did. The prayer was offered. That was the moment that, if you were to ask the young man about, he would say, "I was baptized in the Holy Spirit then, right then." Both he and his friend. They were caught up to the heavenlies (and I don't know of any better way to say it than that). They looked at each other, sought each other's eye as if to say, "Is this really happening?? Are you experiencing this too??"
They had agreed as touching. Where there were two or more of us... there also ---> Jesus --> even God was with them in a mighty way.
My friend said later, "I think that the Holy Spirit fell right then by way of confirmation -- showing us that He had heard our prayer."
So then, after a lifetime of sin, after a lifetime of resisting God and all his goodness, stand I. Yes, He can get even me to a place of holiness (being like Him - apart from sin utterly) but that does not mean that it's easy (in my experience). It (the work of God) is also not done. But I do see, have seen, the general direction of these workings and praise Him for it. Oh, and my friend? This one has a full boat of witnesses to the conversion to Christianity. I've witnessed it. Witnessed it with great care and I plan on testifying on his behalf if and when the time comes. But as to me? This is what I may say, "Yea! Though He slay me, YET will I praise HIM! God is good. He is almost unbelievably good and I'm here to tell you! Indeed." But that doesn't mean that I've stopped sinning, or maybe a more 'graceful' way of saying the same thing is that I've not stopped my struggle against sin.
There is time still before I die. I continue to struggle against sin. Will continue. But, and here's the thing. He is faithful -AND- just to forgive us --AND-- to cleanse (purge) us. We need only continue with him. I trust Jesus to do the work and understand that it is for my eternal benefit. How good is that?
~Sparrow
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netchaplain
Member
Pretty moving Brother, and thanks for the sharing. With me, it's more like the concept that once you're born again when receiving Christ (John 1:12; Rev 3:20), you're as holy as you're going to get (which is the only way He works with us) because such imputation does not admit in degrees--but the manifestation of it does--as we are continually "being conformed" (not conforming self--Rom 8:29).
Thus the place of the believer is complete sanctification at rebirth, for all the godly attributes given at the point of regeneration (2 Pet 1:3) places us in all that Christ is (not the deity though--1 John 4:17), then our lives gradually show it more all the time (2 Cor 3:18); and we learn "deep calleth unto deep" (Psa 42:7), e.g. the more we understand, the more we learn to understand more--as God shows us.
Much Love To You
Bob Hall
Thank you and bless you, sir! And I too do claim and possess full righteousness of Christ because I agreed to the deal and agree with the deal - that He and I enter into an exchange where I give Him my shame and He gives me His righteousness. There is no good thing that I can do. In a manner of thinking about it, my "works" are an insult. How can I add to what He has done. And in another way of thinking, I can show my faith only through works, but they are HIS WORKS, done through me but no credit to me. But now we are getting into a thorny area but I do know whom I am speaking to, know that you are thoughtful and that you consider the meaning and not just the words...
Here's the essence of it: The Holy Spirit in me works the good works of God into me, and what is the work of God? It is this: To believe on Him whom He sent. Jesus. (in the pure John 6:29 way). So then I also look for more than what some call a legal righteousness (not saying that I make that distinction - but only trying to communicate using imprecise words)... and continue to strive for experiential holiness. In the "Be thou holy for I am holy" way. This is simply impossible. There is no way for any man to achieve such a thing. To walk apart from sin? Utterly?
No. Can't do it. Nobody can. Why even try? Well, I'll tell you why. I can do all things in Christ Jesus who strengthens me. In the past you have not asked, but ask that I may give to you, abundantly, packed down, exceedingly abundantly and I shall give you more than you could dream of. MY GLORY shall fill heaven AND earth. It shall be seen.
So what if God chooses the beggerly elements (me) to better show His glory? I qualify. I am a sinner in need of salvation and desire earnestly to exceed even those men who are my examples. To do better than Paul. Now here was a man and he struggled against sin and Me? I have not yet struggled unto the shedding of blood (my blood) but maybe just a little 'cause I did get bruised pretty good that one time and it was for righteousness sake -- but bruising doesn't mean 'shedding' and I've not yet done that. My doctor the other day (he's Jewish and has insight) said of me, "You're a zealot," and I agreed. He put his finger right on it. Yes. I am. I am a zealot and a believer. I have asked for the impossible.
But I've also told God that I would settle for something else if I could not actually realize what I've asked for. I've asked, that if not me, then what I wanted was to see "her". I want to live long enough to see His bride. There are concubines many, but she exceeds them all. I would love to see her and hope to serve her with my heart full as a service unto God. SO I look around constantly and wonder... is Bob her maybe? Could it be? I know that he's not yet finished, who is? But maybe? Is this the glimpse that I've asked for all of my life?
Will God prevent the hearts desire of a man? Or will He allow?
But that does not mean that it is out of my reach, because it is the trial of my faith that extends my reach. I won't be tried beyond my endurance but I will be and am tried beyond my capacity. That means I have to stretch and to grow and thankfully my foot is on a path where growth is guaranteed and the promise that I attain unto (and it could be here and now? I dunno!) but the promise is that I will come unto the fullness of the stature of the King! I will be like him and yes, I know there are many who put that into the pie in the sky category and I'm not her to argue but only to say that I have great hope and I don't understand why anybody would want to discourage me in that. Right? I mean, for God? ALL THINGS are possible. Magnify the Lord. Expand our vision and let Him rise up in and for us. I want to occupy the land that is mine. Occupy it fully as one becoming a SON of God. Now there's a reach worth reaching for. And I don't care if it is impossible or not. Because here's the thing. Jesus himself asked that we may be "One with the Father" and then said, "Even as I am One with the Father," and that? That is what I want not only for me but for each and every one who calls upon the Mighty Name of the Lord!
Shhhhh... I probably should not give my pearls ... maybe pretend I didn't say that, okay?
Here's the essence of it: The Holy Spirit in me works the good works of God into me, and what is the work of God? It is this: To believe on Him whom He sent. Jesus. (in the pure John 6:29 way). So then I also look for more than what some call a legal righteousness (not saying that I make that distinction - but only trying to communicate using imprecise words)... and continue to strive for experiential holiness. In the "Be thou holy for I am holy" way. This is simply impossible. There is no way for any man to achieve such a thing. To walk apart from sin? Utterly?
No. Can't do it. Nobody can. Why even try? Well, I'll tell you why. I can do all things in Christ Jesus who strengthens me. In the past you have not asked, but ask that I may give to you, abundantly, packed down, exceedingly abundantly and I shall give you more than you could dream of. MY GLORY shall fill heaven AND earth. It shall be seen.
So what if God chooses the beggerly elements (me) to better show His glory? I qualify. I am a sinner in need of salvation and desire earnestly to exceed even those men who are my examples. To do better than Paul. Now here was a man and he struggled against sin and Me? I have not yet struggled unto the shedding of blood (my blood) but maybe just a little 'cause I did get bruised pretty good that one time and it was for righteousness sake -- but bruising doesn't mean 'shedding' and I've not yet done that. My doctor the other day (he's Jewish and has insight) said of me, "You're a zealot," and I agreed. He put his finger right on it. Yes. I am. I am a zealot and a believer. I have asked for the impossible.
But I've also told God that I would settle for something else if I could not actually realize what I've asked for. I've asked, that if not me, then what I wanted was to see "her". I want to live long enough to see His bride. There are concubines many, but she exceeds them all. I would love to see her and hope to serve her with my heart full as a service unto God. SO I look around constantly and wonder... is Bob her maybe? Could it be? I know that he's not yet finished, who is? But maybe? Is this the glimpse that I've asked for all of my life?
Will God prevent the hearts desire of a man? Or will He allow?
But that does not mean that it is out of my reach, because it is the trial of my faith that extends my reach. I won't be tried beyond my endurance but I will be and am tried beyond my capacity. That means I have to stretch and to grow and thankfully my foot is on a path where growth is guaranteed and the promise that I attain unto (and it could be here and now? I dunno!) but the promise is that I will come unto the fullness of the stature of the King! I will be like him and yes, I know there are many who put that into the pie in the sky category and I'm not her to argue but only to say that I have great hope and I don't understand why anybody would want to discourage me in that. Right? I mean, for God? ALL THINGS are possible. Magnify the Lord. Expand our vision and let Him rise up in and for us. I want to occupy the land that is mine. Occupy it fully as one becoming a SON of God. Now there's a reach worth reaching for. And I don't care if it is impossible or not. Because here's the thing. Jesus himself asked that we may be "One with the Father" and then said, "Even as I am One with the Father," and that? That is what I want not only for me but for each and every one who calls upon the Mighty Name of the Lord!
Shhhhh... I probably should not give my pearls ... maybe pretend I didn't say that, okay?
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God told us to prophecy and to seek after prophecy because it edifies the body of Christ. But we lost so much and there are only hints of things in the Word of Truth but believers need not worry, for unto us is given a Teacher and He will recall unto us all those things that Jesus has said.
So that we may in truth speak the WORD unto those dry bones. But no, I am not a prophet (that's an office, not a Gift) and all believers are told to seek this. Here's another way of looking (approaching the same thing): Study to show yourself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth. Who gets to show? We do. What do we show? We show our ability to rightly divide. To portion the Word in the way that Jesus wants - by His Spirit, by His mind, that very same mind that is given freely to them who strive to do the WIll of our Father in heaven.
Jesus has confessed our names to God. We may ask. He will hear. Hear and answer. There is much to do and not much time but there is time sufficient because He is our every sufficiency.
Dry bones! Stand. I command you. I command in the Name. Stand. Let the sinew form -- the bonds of love that God gives by His Holy Spirit (utterly apart from sin holy) so that we are rightly fitted together. I agree with the Holy One! Let it be as He said. Amen and amen! Let there come a time when others may wonder, "What is this? A nation born in a day? A people who speak the same things?" How can this be?
Hallelujah! There is only one explanation. And there is not glory to me. Not one drop. Good thing too because I can't power the sun. Nobody but God can. He is the source of light, the Father of Lights that descend down.
So that we may in truth speak the WORD unto those dry bones. But no, I am not a prophet (that's an office, not a Gift) and all believers are told to seek this. Here's another way of looking (approaching the same thing): Study to show yourself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth. Who gets to show? We do. What do we show? We show our ability to rightly divide. To portion the Word in the way that Jesus wants - by His Spirit, by His mind, that very same mind that is given freely to them who strive to do the WIll of our Father in heaven.
Jesus has confessed our names to God. We may ask. He will hear. Hear and answer. There is much to do and not much time but there is time sufficient because He is our every sufficiency.
Dry bones! Stand. I command you. I command in the Name. Stand. Let the sinew form -- the bonds of love that God gives by His Holy Spirit (utterly apart from sin holy) so that we are rightly fitted together. I agree with the Holy One! Let it be as He said. Amen and amen! Let there come a time when others may wonder, "What is this? A nation born in a day? A people who speak the same things?" How can this be?
Hallelujah! There is only one explanation. And there is not glory to me. Not one drop. Good thing too because I can't power the sun. Nobody but God can. He is the source of light, the Father of Lights that descend down.
DO NOT BE DECEIVED said:
You don't leave any room here for a person who may break down and fall to temptation.
Am I correct in saying that from what you have said here?
So if a believer falls to temptation, you are saying they are not truly part of the Church and Body of Christ.
Am I correct that you are saying this here?
Because that's how I read it.
We all stumble and fall.We have all been a victim of temptation.And that includes pastors.We pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off and then have a long talk with God.Ask for forgivness and not committ that sin again.
netchaplain
Member
Hi AW - Very applicable inquiry. The believer though saved for eternity at the moment of regeneration (rebirth) will continuously be learning from the temptations, which will manifest God more all the time as the outward life progresses in the inward holiness of Christ--"from glory to glory" (2 cor 3:18).
If the outward life does not truly change, there has been no inward regeneration, for nobody reborn can continue without "being conformed" (Rom 8:29) by the lessons God brings them through, which complies with what Kathi shared (Jam 3:2). It also must be noted that the fall of a true Christian is never final (Jude 1:24).