Growth “The Carnal Mind”

[JLB]

Regeneration cannot occur without the Spirit's baptism.


"This breathing on them, and the words that attended it, were a symbol, pledge, and confirmation, of what they were to receive on the day of Pentecost: hence it appears, that it is the Spirit of God, who, by His gifts and grace, makes and qualifies men to be ministers of the Gospel; and our Lord by this action, and these words, gives a very considerable proof of His deity." JG

Thanks for your time.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

.
Before the Spirit was "given" (John 7:39) believer's were not born again (regenerated), which then was sequential to believing. After the Spirit was given God used the Apostles and other disciples to introduce the Spirit even though they were believer's, but since then, faith is no longer antecedent to regeneration of the Spirit, but simultaneous.

What is born again but regeneration.
It seems to me that un-regenerated then would mean spiritually dead.
The old covenant saints were far from being spiritually dead. I think they were regenerated. They knew God was their Redeemer and looked forward to their Redemption, through the Messiah, to be manifested.
In Romans 4 and Galatians 3, Paul uses Abraham as an example of one who believed by faith. I believe Abraham was a regenerated man.
How could Moses and the other writers of the old covenant have written what they did if they were not regenerated.
I think some of the doctrines and traditions that have developed in the gentile Christian church are not consistent with what the Whole Word of God teaches.
The foundation is Christ and He was with His people in Spirit from the beginning.

 

[netchaplain]

Thanks for your time.
JLB

You too Friend in Christ.

 

[netchaplain]

What is born again but regeneration.
It seems to me that un-regenerated then would mean spiritually dead.
The old covenant saints were far from being spiritually dead. I think they were regenerated. They knew God was their Redeemer and looked forward to their Redemption, through the Messiah, to be manifested.
In Romans 4 and Galatians 3, Paul uses Abraham as an example of one who believed by faith. I believe Abraham was a regenerated man.
How could Moses and the other writers of the old covenant have written what they did if they were not regenerated.
I think some of the doctrines and traditions that have developed in the gentile Christian church are not consistent with what the Whole Word of God teaches.
The foundation is Christ and He was with His people in Spirit from the beginning.

Hi Deborah - God's salvation offered in the prior dispensation was of a different Covenant than the present; belief without regeneration was then, unlike now, as it is mandatory that they are simultaneous.

I hope what I'm sharing with everyone is understood to be only with the intentions of getting at the truth and nothing else.

 

[iLOVE]

In the present dispensation there is “one Spirit . . . one Lord . . . one baptism” (Eph 4:4, 5).

Paul was singling out one specific baptism here. He was speaking of the first baptism when the Holy Spirit takes all of us who are truly saved and places us into the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. This fits the context well and helps make Paul's point about unity. There is only one person who administers this baptism (the Holy Spirit), and there is only one thing that we are all baptized into (i.e., the body of Christ). Since we are all one body through this baptism, we ought to function as one body.

Hebrews 6:2 clearly mentions that there are baptisms (plural). Hebrews 6:1-3 NASB

 

[netchaplain]

Paul was singling out one specific baptism here. He was speaking of the first baptism when the Holy Spirit takes all of us who are truly saved and places us into the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. This fits the context well and helps make Paul's point about unity. There is only one person who administers this baptism (the Holy Spirit), and there is only one thing that we are all baptized into (i.e., the body of Christ). Since we are all one body through this baptism, we ought to function as one body.

Hebrews 6:2 clearly mentions that there are baptisms (plural). Hebrews 6:1-3 NASB

"The the doctrine of baptisms is best to interpret as the divers baptisms among the Jews, spoken of in Hebrews 9:10 which had a doctrine in them, to that people; teaching them the cleansing virtue of the blood of Christ, and leading them to it, to wash in for sin, and for uncleanness; but now, since this blood was shed, they were no more to teach nor learn the doctrine of cleansing by the blood of Christ this way; nor any more to be led unto it through these divers baptisms, ablutions, and purifications (all which are in the Law--NC)." JG

Notice the doctrines mentioned in Hebrews 6:1, 2 are principles from which the believers were to "leave," verse 1; not to leave behind but to use them to understand higher truths which concern grace instead of law.

 

[iLOVE]

"The the doctrine of baptisms is best to interpret as the divers baptisms among the Jews, spoken of in Hebrews 9:10 which had a doctrine in them, to that people; teaching them the cleansing virtue of the blood of Christ, and leading them to it, to wash in for sin, and for uncleanness; but now, since this blood was shed, they were no more to teach nor learn the doctrine of cleansing by the blood of Christ this way; nor any more to be led unto it through these divers baptisms, ablutions, and purifications (all which are in the Law--NC)." JG

Notice the doctrines mentioned in Hebrews 6:1, 2 are principles from which the believers were to "leave," verse 1; not to leave behind but to use them to understand higher truths which concern grace instead of law.

Netchaplin what is your denomination?

 

[netchaplain]

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,.... The Gospel is the doctrine of Christ, and is so called, because Christ, as God, is the Author of it; as Mediator, He received it from His Father; as man, he was the preacher of it; and He is also the sum and substance of it: the principles of this doctrine are either the easier parts of the Gospel, called milk in the latter part of the preceding chapter; which are not to be left with dislike and contempt, nor so as to be forgotten, nor so as not to be recurred to at proper times; but so as not to abide in and stick here, without going further." JG

 

[netchaplain]

Netchaplin what is your denomination?

I prefer being non-denominational but visit and share with a few fellowships that are denominational. May I request the reason of your inquiry? Not that I see your question to be inquisitive or suspicious though, because I believe everyone who has been in this thread is also seeking truth, and thanks for asking, because it shows concern.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deborah - God's salvation offered in the prior dispensation was of a different Covenant than the present; belief without regeneration was then, unlike now, as it is mandatory that they are simultaneous.

I hope what I'm sharing with everyone is understood to be only with the intentions of getting at the truth and nothing else.

Hi
I found this letter that was written by John Piper to another man. He states some of the things that I too see. This is but a short excerpt from the letter.

"2) Stephen makes a very suggestive comment to the Jews of the post-Pentecost period: “You hard necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you are always resisting the Holy Spirit, as your fathers, so also you” (Acts 7:51). Does this not mean that Stephen and Luke thought of generation after generation of Jews resisting the Holy Spirit just as the Jews of the post-Pentecost era did?

3) Paul picks up the motif of the “uncircumcised heart” and says that (true) circumcision is of the heart, just like being a (true) Jew is a secret matter of the heart (Romans 2:28ff). In other words, these terms correspond to the “new creature” or “new man”; they mark off the truly new person who is in saving fellowship with God.

But I would argue that Paul is simply repeating a truth that the Old Testament made plain. In Deuteronomy 10:16 Moses appeals, like Stephen, “Circumcise then your heart and stiffen your neck no more.” What in reality was he calling for? Or hear Jeremiah 4:4, “Remove the foreskin of your hearts!” Or Ezekiel 18:31, “Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!”"
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/re-the-new-covenant-and-the-holy-spirit-in-the-old-testament

What is regeneration if it is not, co-operating with the Holy Spirit, circumcision of the heart, a new heart and a new spirit?
How can this happen but by the grace through faith?

 

[netchaplain]

Hi
I found this letter that was written by John Piper to another man. He states some of the things that I too see. This is but a short excerpt from the letter.

"2) Stephen makes a very suggestive comment to the Jews of the post-Pentecost period: “You hard necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you are always resisting the Holy Spirit, as your fathers, so also you” (Acts 7:51). Does this not mean that Stephen and Luke thought of generation after generation of Jews resisting the Holy Spirit just as the Jews of the post-Pentecost era did?

3) Paul picks up the motif of the “uncircumcised heart” and says that (true) circumcision is of the heart, just like being a (true) Jew is a secret matter of the heart (Romans 2:28ff). In other words, these terms correspond to the “new creature” or “new man”; they mark off the truly new person who is in saving fellowship with God.

But I would argue that Paul is simply repeating a truth that the Old Testament made plain. In Deuteronomy 10:16 Moses appeals, like Stephen, “Circumcise then your heart and stiffen your neck no more.” What in reality was he calling for? Or hear Jeremiah 4:4, “Remove the foreskin of your hearts!” Or Ezekiel 18:31, “Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!”"
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/re-the-new-covenant-and-the-holy-spirit-in-the-old-testament

What is regeneration if it is not, co-operating with the Holy Spirit, circumcision of the heart, a new heart and a new spirit?
How can this happen but by the grace through faith?

I'm not sure of what the above material attempts to focus on, but the doctrines of the OT was not only what God desired of Israel at that time, but was also the "schoolmaster" (Gal 3:24) for what and Who He was bringing in, in order to reveal more truth concerning the desires of His will.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm not sure of what the above material attempts to focus on, but the doctrines of the OT was not only what God desired of Israel at that time, but was also the "schoolmaster" (Gal 3:24) for what and Who He was bringing in, in order to reveal more truth concerning the desires of His will.

Yes, the Law of Moses was a schoolmaster.
The above letter is about the OT saints being regenerated or not.

Abraham was before the Law of Moses. He, Paul says, is the father of us all. He was found to be righteous by faith. But you don't think he had been regenerated? And that's is specifically what I don't understand.

 

[iLOVE]

I prefer being non-denominational but visit and share with a few fellowships that are denominational. May I request the reason of your inquiry? Not that I see your question to be inquisitive or suspicious though, because I believe everyone who has been in this thread is also seeking truth, and thanks for asking, because it shows concern.

Netchaplin I will never quarrel over doctrines, however it seems that you agree with the "ONENESS" theology.

 

[netchaplain]

Yes, the Law of Moses was a schoolmaster.
The above letter is about the OT saints being regenerated or not.

Abraham was before the Law of Moses. He, Paul says, is the father of us all. He was found to be righteous by faith. But you don't think he had been regenerated? And that's is specifically what I don't understand.

As I stated earlier, regeneration was not required for salvation in the prior dispensation, He was preparing man through Israel, from whom would be among the first, concerning His ultimate purposes now revealed.

God prepares us before He instructs us, same for using the OT not only to secure those who are His then, but also preparation for those who are His now (Jews first).

 

[netchaplain]

Netchaplin I will never quarrel over doctrines, however it seems that you agree with the "ONENESS" theology.

Thanks for letting me know why you asked what you did, as I was correct that it wasn't out of improper motive, but to continue towards truth.

There are numerous concepts within what defines what others who may not know truth concerning certain issues, so you would have to explain more clearly concerning mentioning what "Oneness" believe concerning what we are discussing, because I not certain as to what you are asking here or what you mean. Thanks.

 

[JLB]

"The the doctrine of baptisms is best to interpret as the divers baptisms among the Jews, spoken of in Hebrews 9:10 which had a doctrine in them, to that people; teaching them the cleansing virtue of the blood of Christ, and leading them to it, to wash in for sin, and for uncleanness; but now, since this blood was shed, they were no more to teach nor learn the doctrine of cleansing by the blood of Christ this way; nor any more to be led unto it through these divers baptisms, ablutions, and purifications (all which are in the Law--NC)." JG

Notice the doctrines mentioned in Hebrews 6:1, 2 are principles from which the believers were to "leave," verse 1; not to leave behind but to use them to understand higher truths which concern grace instead of law.

We never leave the elementary principles of Christ, but rather build upon its sure foundation.

Paul said he was leaving the discussion of the elementary principles, not the principles themselves, the discussion OF the principles...

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, Hebrews 6:1


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

As I stated earlier, regeneration was not required for salvation in the prior dispensation, He was preparing man through Israel, from whom would be among the first, concerning His ultimate purposes now revealed.

God prepares us before He instructs us, same for using the OT not only to secure those who are His then, but also preparation for those who are His now (Jews first).

What is regeneration?

 

[netchaplain]

We never leave the elementary principles of Christ, but rather build upon its sure foundation.

Paul said he was leaving the discussion of the elementary principles, not the principles themselves, the discussion OF the principles...

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, Hebrews 6:1


JLB

To me it means "going further forward than the elementary "principles." As in building a house one must never leave the foundation (as you've mentioned): yet to be always laboring in 'laying the foundation' would be ridiculous." -J F B

 

[JLB]

To me it means "going further forward than the elementary "principles." As in building a house one must never leave the foundation (as you've mentioned): yet to be always laboring in 'laying the foundation' would be ridiculous." -J F B

Paul said he was leaving the discussion of Baptism's, plural, meaning more than one.

These Baptism's as Paul demonstrated, include Baptism in Water and Baptism in the Holy Spirit, as Jesus taught.

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is the power that God grants to those who have received this gift of Grace, after they have been born again.


JLB

 

[netchaplain]

Paul said he was leaving the discussion of Baptism's, plural, meaning more than one.

These Baptism's as Paul demonstrated, include Baptism in Water and Baptism in the Holy Spirit, as Jesus taught.

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is the power that God grants to those who have received this gift of Grace, after they have been born again.


JLB

I believe "baptisms" can also have, at least in part, reference to "the threefold baptism of spirit, blood, and water, which have some agreement with each other" -JG (1 John 5:6, 8). The idea is not to remain at the point of rebirth but to "go on unto maturity" (Heb 6:1). There are those who are content with just being saved without growing in it.