1 Corinthians 12-14

[awaken]

In learning from others..I have found that nobody is perfect, and nobody has perfect beliefs. This means that somewhere along the way we might have picked up some beliefs that are just plain wrong, and some of our ideas about God and Christianity are wrong. This is true for all of us, because none of us will ever be perfect this side of heaven. But that's kind of an unsettling thought, isn't it? After all, if it's pretty much guaranteed that some of our Christian views are wrong, then how do we know which views are wrong?

If we honestly want to discover the truth, it's helpful to start with a clean slate by pretending that we don't know anything about the topic that we are studying. This will help us look beyond our preconceived biases and "filters." It's important to be as prayerful, honest, thorough, and objective as possible, and it's important to be willing to believe whichever view has the greatest weight of evidence in Scripture.

I thought I would start a different thread to discuss 1 Corinthians 12-14..I will start with 13..I have read different interpretations of most of these scriptures here on the forum...but this is where I stand at this time.

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." (1 Corinthians 13:1)

I noticed that the apostle Paul mentioned the tongues of angels, which are not likely to be human languages because angels were created long before humans were. Paul might have heard the language(s) of angels when he was taken up into heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-7).

Many people believe that speaking in tongues refers to the supernatural gift of speaking in unlearned human languages, but the above passage disproves that view. In other words, we have no way of knowing whether the Holy Spirit will choose to speak through us in a human language or an angelic language, so we cannot be dogmatic that tongues only refers to human languages.


Paul said that if we are not speaking in love then we are just making a bunch of noise. This means that when we are speaking to other people we should do it in love, and therefore this is a reference to the public form of tongues.

Verses 2-7 compares other gifts saying..without love .... they profit nothing. Then goes on to explain what love is.

 

[veteran]

I'm not judging, but I can only go on what our Lord has given in His Word about this, including through His servant Paul.

The cloven tongue of Pentecost was a work by The Holy Spirit, and it definitely involved known languages. There's not even any reason to assume in Acts 2 when the Apostles spoke to the multitudes that what came out of their own mouths was some unrecognizable form of speech. They spoke words, but the multitudes heard them speak in the very dialects of their own languages. It is safe to assume the Apostles heard their own speech as the dialect of Hebrew they normally spoke. There's no evidence to the contrary written there.

The whole matter revolves around the tower of Babel event, which was when God confused the original one language that all peoples once spoke on this earth. It's most likely that language He has promised to return us all to one day per Zeph.3:9.

1 Cor 14:27
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
(KJV)

That word "unknown" in all the 1 Cor.14 examples is not in the Greek manuscripts. It was added by the KJV translators. And the word "tongue" is Greek glossa, meaning a known language of the world.

In the following, note how Paul is contrasting words easy to be understood with voices in the world.

1 Cor 14:9-14
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
(KJV)

The idea is that even if we pray in another language we don't understand, our spirit only can show God our intent, but the words we won't understand. It does not mean some unique 'unknown tongue', because the word 'unknown' is not really there in the Greek. Paul was talking about an 'unknown' language or unknown words, but voices in the world, i.e., languages.

Nevertheless, if the tongue some speak today, which does not fit any known language of the world, is a manifesting by The Holy Spirit, then it's my hope those who speak it will prepare themselves for the tribulation, because the true cloven tongue purpose in the last days is to give the world a Witness and Testimony for Christ by The Holy Spirit, another event like Pentecost where each person heard in their very dialect of birth.

What's strange, is that most of those I know who speak with a tongue that isn't understood, are on the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine, which teaches the rapture will occur prior... to the "great tribulation". How will those give a Witness for Christ during the tribulation using that tongue if they seek to fly away beforehand?

 

[awaken]

I agree that at the day of pentecost it was a language that the others recognized.

Who were the 120 believers talking to when they spoke in tongues? Notice that they were all together in one place, then they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and they all began speaking in tongues. Since they were all speaking in foreign languages, they could not have understood each other. Therefore, they were not talking to one another, but notice that there was no-one else around at this point for them to be talking to. They were talking to God and praising Him in tongues in the Holy Spirit, which is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)
At Pentecost the disciples were talking to God in the Holy Spirit. .

And Paul did mention the tongue of angels????

 

[stranger]

awaken wrote:

In learning from others..I have found that nobody is perfect, and nobody has perfect beliefs. This means that somewhere along the way we might have picked up some beliefs that are just plain wrong, and some of our ideas about God and Christianity are wrong. This is true for all of us, because none of us will ever be perfect this side of heaven. But that's kind of an unsettling thought, isn't it? After all, if it's pretty much guaranteed that some of our Christian views are wrong, then how do we know which views are wrong?

Hi awaken,
What about the apostolic and arguably the prophetic faith delivered to the saints by the apostles and prophets?

If we honestly want to discover the truth, it's helpful to start with a clean slate by pretending that we don't know anything about the topic that we are studying. This will help us look beyond our preconceived biases and "filters." It's important to be as prayerful, honest, thorough, and objective as possible, and it's important to be willing to believe whichever view has the greatest weight of evidence in Scripture.

Admittedly I use a blank piece of paper (a clean slate) when studying something. You will come up against the expression 'scripture interprets scripture' very shortly. While all men claim the help of the Holy Spirit and so on - the role of reason, tradition, and experience is hardly ever talked about as contributing factors to interpretation. So to highlight one of the difficulties I have an expression:
men use reason to interpret scripture but few ever say it. When you weigh up which view has the greatest weight are you not elevating reason higher than scripture? since men reason differently we end up with different views regardless, as I have mentioned, the appeal to the Holy Spirit when this approach is used, or used in isolation of other factors.

I thought I would start a different thread to discuss 1 Corinthians 12-14..I will start with 13..I have read different interpretations of most of these scriptures here on the forum...but this is where I stand at this time.

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." (1 Corinthians 13:1)

I noticed that the apostle Paul mentioned the tongues of angels, which are not likely to be human languages because angels were created long before humans were. Paul might have heard the language(s) of angels when he was taken up into heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-7).

Many people believe that speaking in tongues refers to the supernatural gift of speaking in unlearned human languages, but the above passage disproves that view. In other words, we have no way of knowing whether the Holy Spirit will choose to speak through us in a human language or an angelic language, so we cannot be dogmatic that tongues only refers to human languages.

Paul said that if we are not speaking in love then we are just making a bunch of noise. This means that when we are speaking to other people we should do it in love, and therefore this is a reference to the public form of tongues.

Verses 2-7 compares other gifts saying..without love .... they profit nothing. Then goes on to explain what love is.

lose love and all is lost.

blessing

 

[awaken]

Hi awaken,
What about the apostolic and arguably the prophetic faith delivered to the saints by the apostles and prophets?

I believe the apostles passed down truth. Somewhere along the line..this truth has been twisted. But the Holy Spirit will teach us all truth...

I was brought up in the teaching...that the manifestations of the Spirit was done away with. Later...I prayed that God would take all my teachings on this out and re teach me. It has been a slow process, I am still learning. But what the Holy Spirit has confirmed in me and to me through scriptures...It would be hard to change my belief.

 

[glorydaz]

It's important to know who made up this church in Corinth...they are babes in Chirst.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

He's already told them that "knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth".

Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

After asking these young Christians if all are Apostles, prophets etc., he tells them of a "more excellent way." Which is love...

But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

To know the love of Christ,which passes knowledge (and puffs up)....

And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Where all else fails or will cease...love never will.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

It's interesting to note that Paul wrote at least 12 epistles after 1 Corinthians and never mentioned tongues again. Peter, James, Jude, and John do not mention tongues. But he does bring them up to this church composed of babes in Christ. Love is a necessary component of moving on into spiritual maturity. Without moving on to a more excellent way of putting others above one's self, one still thinks as a child. Paul is encouraging them to move on...put on charity, which is "the bond of perfectness."

And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

All the gifts in the world are worth nothing if we don't have love. Not the grab and hug ya kind of love, but the love Paul talks about in this Cor. 13 chapter. Basically, we need the fruit of the Spirit before God can use us at all....for edification or anything else.

Here we see the maturing process...the perfecting of the saints.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

He carries it forward in Romans...

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

 

[awaken]

I do agree that this book is written to a church that needs correction..there was division, disorder, difficulties, idol worship, public worhip out of order, Lords supper, and the misuse of the gifts..but NOT that the gifts not longer exist..just that they were using them in the wrong way. That said...

1 Corinthians 13:8-10
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)


Many people assume that this passage teaches that some gifts died out in the first century, because they assume that "perfection" was achieved when the New Testament was completed. However, there are a number of reasons why 1 Corinthians 13:10 (above) does not refer to the completion of the New Testament:

If we believe that this passage is referring to the completion of the New Testament then we are reading into the passage something which it does not actually say. For example, it is equally possible that Paul was referring to the completion of our salvation (which will occur when our bodies are transformed), as in the following passage:

"he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6)
The words "completion" or "perfection" can refer to any number of things. The fact that the Greek word for "perfection" can be translated as "completion" does not really prove that Paul was referring to the completed New Testament.

The Greek word teleios ("perfection") examined in every place it is used in Scripture ...how did he(Paul) normally used this word. Paul used teleios seven other times in the New Testament (Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 2:6, 14:20, Ephesians 4:13, Philippians 3:15, Colossians 1:28, 4:12). With the sole exception of Romans 12:2, it is clear that every time Paul used the Greek word teleios ("perfection") he was referring to the spiritual maturity of believers, which will not be fully complete or perfect until we are resurrected and transformed at the return of Christ (e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). The internal evidence of Paul's consistent use of teleios is a strong reason for understanding "perfection" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 as being a reference to our ultimate perfection in heaven. There is no evidence to suggest that Paul had the completed New Testament in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

 

[stranger]

Hi awaken,
What about the apostolic and arguably the prophetic faith delivered to the saints by the apostles and prophets?

I believe the apostles passed down truth. Somewhere along the line..this truth has been twisted. But the Holy Spirit will teach us all truth...

I was brought up in the teaching...that the manifestations of the Spirit was done away with. Later...I prayed that God would take all my teachings on this out and re teach me. It has been a slow process, I am still learning. But what the Holy Spirit has confirmed in me and to me through scriptures...It would be hard to change my belief.

Hi awaken,
No question about many twists along the way, they often involve doctrinal disagreements and end up in church splits.

Likewise about the gifts of the Spirit - I was taught that once the scriptures were canonised - eg the prophetic gift disappeared and with that the prophets. Naturally, false prophets were a constant source of feul for the fire and confirmed what I had been taught. But really, nowhere in scripture does it say that prophesy will disappear -- except at the end of the age when a lot of other things disappear as well. Still, tread carefully.

blessings

 

[glorydaz]

The Greek word teleios ("perfection") examined in every place it is used in Scripture ...how did he(Paul) normally used this word. Paul used teleios seven other times in the New Testament (Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 2:6, 14:20, Ephesians 4:13, Philippians 3:15, Colossians 1:28, 4:12). With the sole exception of Romans 12:2, it is clear that every time Paul used the Greek word teleios ("perfection") he was referring to the spiritual maturity of believers, which will not be fully complete or perfect until we are resurrected and transformed at the return of Christ (e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). The internal evidence of Paul's consistent use of teleios is a strong reason for understanding "perfection" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 as being a reference to our ultimate perfection in heaven. There is no evidence to suggest that Paul had the completed New Testament in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

I believe it's a combination of both. It is impossible to come to spiritual maturity until the Word of God is made available to the believer. Those who were "out of the loop" so to speak, such as the Corinthian church were still babes...immature. Those who had access to the preaching of the disciples had moved on to spiritual maturity. The Greek word, teleios, speaks of maturity, adult, and full grown.

This is where Paul is comparing the wisdom of men and the wisdom of God....it's wisdom to those who are "perfect" (mature).

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

This scripture, too, speaks of maturity...here, not in heaven.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This, too, refers to the maturity of the believer...right here on earth.

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Same here...mature.

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Same....

Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

In fact, every time Paul uses the word "perfect", except the perfect will of God in Rom., he is referring to the state of the mature believer. Put "mature" in all those verses and you'll see clearly what Paul is saying. And Paul is telling the Corinthian church, when maturity in the Word (that which is perfect) comes, those tongues will cease. Their worldly knowledge will fail, and their "prophecies" will fail because as they take on the mind of Christ and eat the meat of the Word of God, they will no longer be children tossed to and fro. Once the completed Word was given, believers no longer had to rely on visits from Paul for their revelations.

PS...thanks for looking up all those verses. Good job.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi awaken,
No question about many twists along the way, they often involve doctrinal disagreements and end up in church splits.

Likewise about the gifts of the Spirit - I was taught that once the scriptures were canonised - eg the prophetic gift disappeared and with that the prophets. Naturally, false prophets were a constant source of feul for the fire and confirmed what I had been taught. But really, nowhere in scripture does it say that prophesy will disappear -- except at the end of the age when a lot of other things disappear as well. Still, tread carefully.

blessings

Paul says prophecy would fail. Scripture was based on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets.

Prophecy, as Paul describes it..the speaking of comfort, edification and encouragement is still with us, but the predictive part of prophecy has failed. We have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, but the Day of the Lord will come as a thief. We are not to know the future, other than what we read in the Word. When we hear someone claiming the world will end in 2001 or 2012, we know they are not Prophets from God.

Jeremiah spoke of that day...

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. 22But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. 23Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. 25I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 27Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. 28The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. 29Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? 30Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. 31Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. 32Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD. 33And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou
shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.

 

[awaken]

Although "complete" is a valid translation of the basic Greek word teleios, Paul actually used a specific form of this Greek word in 1 Corinthians 13:10 which has a very definite meaning. Paul used the Greek expression "to teleion," which specifically refers to our ultimate perfection in heaven. You can easily verify for yourself the expression that Paul used by going to any library or Christian bookstore and looking up 1 Corinthians 13:10 in any Greek version of the New Testament. If you then look up teleios in the Greek dictionary mentioned above you can verify that when it is used in the form of "to teleion" it refers to the heavenly perfection of our bodies, which we will not experience until our bodies are transformed and perfected at the Rapture.

Again, there is no evidence to suggest that Paul had the completed New Testament in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Instead, the evidence indicates that "perfection" refers to our ultimate maturity as believers.


Paul said that when "perfection" comes, the "imperfect" will disappear. It is clear from the context that the word "imperfect" refers to the spiritual gifts that are mentioned, although this obviously does not mean that the Holy Spirit is imperfect or that His gifts are imperfect! The gifts of the Spirit are for our use while we are in these fallen, physical bodies on earth, and it is our use of the spiritual gifts which is imperfect, because Paul said that "we know in part and we prophesy in part." However, when "perfection" comes (meaning the perfection or completion of our salvation when we get to heaven) then we will no longer need these gifts of the Spirit because our previous, mortal, fallen state of existence will be completely done away with. It is this completion and perfection of our salvation which Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians 13:10, not the completion of the New Testament.


If Paul had mentioned the completed New Testament somewhere in the same context as the word "perfection," then this would strengthen the argument that the word "perfection" refers to the completed New Testament. However, Paul did not mention the New Testament at all in the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10. Paul never said anything about the completed New Testament in the entire book of 1 Corinthians. In fact, Paul never mentioned a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures in any of his letters!

 

[watchman F]

I'm not judging, but I can only go on what our Lord has given in His Word about this, including through His servant Paul.

The cloven tongue of Pentecost was a work by The Holy Spirit, and it definitely involved known languages. There's not even any reason to assume in Acts 2 when the Apostles spoke to the multitudes that what came out of their own mouths was some unrecognizable form of speech. They spoke words, but the multitudes heard them speak in the very dialects of their own languages. It is safe to assume the Apostles heard their own speech as the dialect of Hebrew they normally spoke. There's no evidence to the contrary written there.

You are right when referring to the case in Acts 2 alone, but you are wrong if you are trying to equate every instance of a speaking in tongues to the acts 2 experience. As awaken has shown Paul certainly does talk about the ability he had to speak in angelic tongues.

The idea is that even if we pray in another language we don't understand, our spirit only can show God our intent, but the words we won't understand. It does not mean some unique 'unknown tongue', because the word 'unknown' is not really there in the Greek. Paul was talking about an 'unknown' language or unknown words, but voices in the world, i.e., languages.

When we pray in tongues for our own edification it could be in an unknown human language (unknown to us) or an angelic language.
1st Cor 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Nevertheless, if the tongue some speak today, which does not fit any known language of the world, is a manifesting by The Holy Spirit, then it's my hope those who speak it will prepare themselves for the tribulation, because the true cloven tongue purpose in the last days is to give the world a Witness and Testimony for Christ by The Holy Spirit, another event like Pentecost where each person heard in their very dialect of birth.

If people were to use tongues in the Tribulation to witness to others, it would be in the language of those they are witnessing to, not in an angelic language. Unknown tongues are used by God in a tongue and interpretation that needs interpreted, or in our private prayer, not in witnessing

What's strange, is that most of those I know who speak with a tongue that isn't understood, are on the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine, which teaches the rapture will occur prior... to the "great tribulation". How will those give a Witness for Christ during the tribulation using that tongue if they seek to fly away beforehand?

Off subject, but you would think that those baptized in the holy Spirit with evidence of tongues would have enough discernment to realize the pretrib doctrine is false.

 

[watchman F]

Hi awaken,
What about the apostolic and arguably the prophetic faith delivered to the saints by the apostles and prophets?

I believe the apostles passed down truth. Somewhere along the line..this truth has been twisted. But the Holy Spirit will teach us all truth...

I was brought up in the teaching...that the manifestations of the Spirit was done away with. Later...I prayed that God would take all my teachings on this out and re teach me. It has been a slow process, I am still learning. But what the Holy Spirit has confirmed in me and to me through scriptures...It would be hard to change my belief.

Amen awaken, I am glad God has opened your eyes.

 

[stranger]

glorydaz wrote:

Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

In fact, every time Paul uses the word "perfect", except the perfect will of God in Rom., he is referring to the state of the mature believer. Put "mature" in all those verses and you'll see clearly what Paul is saying. And Paul is telling the Corinthian church, when maturity in the Word (that which is perfect) comes, those tongues will cease. Their worldly knowledge will fail, and their "prophecies" will fail because as they take on the mind of Christ and eat the meat of the Word of God, they will no longer be children tossed to and fro. Once the completed Word was given, believers no longer had to rely on visits from Paul for their revelations.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 (New American Standard Bible)

8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

Hi glorydaz,

There is a transition in Paul's thought from childhood to manhood.. but there is another transition from the present where he is a man to the end of the age. As a man, and a mature believer or even perfect believer if you like, Paul says now we see dimly but then face to face, know I know in part but then I will fully know...

The fulfilment of knowing fully (and being know) and seeing face to face cannot be before the end of the age .

blessing brother:

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz,

There is a transition in Paul's thought from childhood to manhood.. but there is another transition from the present where he is a man to the end of the age. As a man, and a mature believer or even perfect believer if you like, Paul says now we see dimly but then face to face, know I know in part but then I will fully know...

The fulfilment of knowing fully (and being know) and seeing face to face cannot be before the end of the age .

blessing brother:

Yes, Paul does make another transition, but is he really speaking of the end of the age?

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I've considered that, and it may be, but I'm more inclined to think Paul was speaking of the highest level of spiritual maturity since he does seem to be talking about our entire spiritual walk....I think he could be using the example of Moses ...who knew God "face to face", and was "faithful" in all God''s house. I say that because of the scripture in 2 Cor. (bottom of this post).

My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

To the Jews who were familiar with the life of Moses, Paul's statement must have been clear... the goal of sanctification in the NT becomes what it was for Moses... seeing a clear heavenly revelation of God and his will for men. Just as Moses was sanctified and became a faithful servant in all God's house, we're to be faithful and mature. This "maturity" (teleios), Paul equates with the life of Moses, seeing God "face to face" by way of sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

We see the same thing here....again with Moses.

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[veteran]

I'm not judging, but I can only go on what our Lord has given in His Word about this, including through His servant Paul.

The cloven tongue of Pentecost was a work by The Holy Spirit, and it definitely involved known languages. There's not even any reason to assume in Acts 2 when the Apostles spoke to the multitudes that what came out of their own mouths was some unrecognizable form of speech. They spoke words, but the multitudes heard them speak in the very dialects of their own languages. It is safe to assume the Apostles heard their own speech as the dialect of Hebrew they normally spoke. There's no evidence to the contrary written there.

You are right when referring to the case in Acts 2 alone, but you are wrong if you are trying to equate every instance of a speaking in tongues to the acts 2 experience. As awaken has shown Paul certainly does talk about the ability he had to speak in angelic tongues.

The idea is that even if we pray in another language we don't understand, our spirit only can show God our intent, but the words we won't understand. It does not mean some unique 'unknown tongue', because the word 'unknown' is not really there in the Greek. Paul was talking about an 'unknown' language or unknown words, but voices in the world, i.e., languages.

When we pray in tongues for our own edification it could be in an unknown human language (unknown to us) or an angelic language.
1st Cor 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

[quote:2ubbx1l3]Nevertheless, if the tongue some speak today, which does not fit any known language of the world, is a manifesting by The Holy Spirit, then it's my hope those who speak it will prepare themselves for the tribulation, because the true cloven tongue purpose in the last days is to give the world a Witness and Testimony for Christ by The Holy Spirit, another event like Pentecost where each person heard in their very dialect of birth.

If people were to use tongues in the Tribulation to witness to others, it would be in the language of those they are witnessing to, not in an angelic language. Unknown tongues are used by God in a tongue and interpretation that needs interpreted, or in our private prayer, not in witnessing

What's strange, is that most of those I know who speak with a tongue that isn't understood, are on the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine, which teaches the rapture will occur prior... to the "great tribulation". How will those give a Witness for Christ during the tribulation using that tongue if they seek to fly away beforehand?

Off subject, but you would think that those baptized in the holy Spirit with evidence of tongues would have enough discernment to realize the pretrib doctrine is false.[/quote:2ubbx1l3]


Problem is, there is no such term as "unknown tongue" written in God's Word. The KJV translators added the word "unknown" in 1 Cor.14. It is not in the original Greek NT manuscripts at all.

Thus God's Word is referring to languages, whether one understands the language or not, and not to some hidden mystical angelic tongue. In Acts 2 it is called the "cloven tongue", which has nothing to do with the word 'unknown'. The idea of cloven simply means divided like for distribution. That's a sign of the original language prior to Babel.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz: "Scripture was based on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets."


Hi

May I ask who you think the Apostle Paul was ? An Apostle or not an apostle ?

I Corinth. chapter 14 is not written just to the Corinthians ! It is written to the "Church" ! And if we say we are a part of the church, then this is written to us as well.

One can not seperate themselves from the church just because they claim they are more mature than someone else. The Apostle Paul was speaking to us today , just as much as he was to the Corinthians back then. He was encouraging them to speak in tongues, or else he would never have written chapter 14 of first Corinthains.

Paul was not there on the day of Pentecost. But does this make him less of an apostle ? On the day of pentecost they spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Which means that they did not know what they were speaking, but knew that they were to speak . It was revealed unto them , that what they spoke was the wonderful works of God, by those who understood the language they were speaking in. And it states clearly, that they were astounded.

Now if anyone doubts that Peter or the other twelve who were there on the day of pentecost. That they did not promote speaking in tongues because you can not read it somewhere in the epistles. Lets not forget Peter in Acts. 10 , when he went to the house of Cornelius and when the Holy Spirit came upon them they spoke in tongues, just as the apostles did on the day of pentecost . Speaking in tongues was a "sign", and these Jews who were with Peter heard them speak in tongues, and magnify God. So speaking in tongues was for the gentiles as well, who were a part of the overall church that God has called out.

Paul in Acts 19 asks these Jews, what were you baptized with. They said , John's baptism, which was with water. Paul lead them to the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire, and they spoke in tongues.

Paul an Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God , taught the church in Corinth. to speak in tongues much. Paul even encouraged speaking in tongues, that he spoke in tongues more than ye all. Speaking in tongues was not to be suppressed whatsoever ! It was to be encourage of those who spoke in tongues. Not all will speak in tongues, but it is a sign unto those who do not speak in tongues.

Those who do not speak in tongues should in no way bring down the Word of God, so that you will not feel left out, or in some way feel belittled. That should never happen ! The Word should never be brought down to someone's level of believing. This belittles the Word of God, instead of magnifying the Word of God. God magnified his Word above his name, and no one should bring it down below that which God has magnified it.

For those who do speak in tongues, I encourage you to increase speaking in tongues in your private prayer life. I also encourage speaking in tognues in fellowships with there being interpretation of tongues by you yourself who just spoke in tongues. Interpretation of tongues and prophecy should edify and exhort and comfort. It should edify and exhort and comfort those who also do not speak in tongues. These are words in your own language that you should fully understand. This is what interpretation of tongues and prophecy should accomplish ! Interpretation of tongues and prophecy is a sign unto those who believe - I Corinth. 14:22.

Now here is the crux. If those who do not accept prophesy and interpretation of tongues which edify and exhort and comfort. Then more than likely they are not believers at all. Because interpretation of tongues and prophesy is "for" the believer. - I Corinth. 14:22

I Corinth. 14:27 - 33 is talking about there being order in the church, because God is not a God of confusion. Simple as that !

Those who still need to grow spiritually, please do not try and belittle the Word of God in trying to suppress that which is magnified by God.

Bless

 

[awaken]

As I have studied Pauls writings..It seems that every book of the New Testament written by Paul was a letter to a particular church, or to believers in a particular city, or to specific individuals. He always referred to his letters as "letters," not as new books of Scripture. Here are all of the places in the New Testament where Paul made a reference to his own writings: 1 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Corinthians 7:8, 10:9-11, Colossians 4:16, 1 Thessalonians 5:27, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 3:14, 17. Paul never referred to his letters as new books of Scripture, nor did he ever describe anyone else's writings as being new books of Scripture. Certainly Paul's letters are inspired Scripture, but the point is that Paul never made any kind of reference to a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures. We have no Scriptural evidence for taking Paul's vague statement, "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," as being a reference to the completed New Testament because Paul never mentioned such a thing as a "New Testament." After Paul died, roughly 75 years went by before anyone even tried to formally put together a new set of Scriptures, which we now call "the New Testament". This makes it even less likely that Paul had such a thing in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

 

[glorydaz]

Those who do not speak in tongues should in no way bring down the Word of God, so that you will not feel left out, or in some way feel belittled. That should never happen ! The Word should never be brought down to someone's level of believing. This belittles the Word of God, instead of magnifying the Word of God. God magnified his Word above his name, and no one should bring it down below that which God has magnified it.

For those who do speak in tongues, I encourage you to increase speaking in tongues in your private prayer life. I also encourage speaking in tognues in fellowships with there being interpretation of tongues by you yourself who just spoke in tongues. Interpretation of tongues and prophecy should edify and exhort and comfort. It should edify and exhort and comfort those who also do not speak in tongues. These are words in your own language that you should fully understand. This is what interpretation of tongues and prophecy should accomplish ! Interpretation of tongues and prophecy is a sign unto those who believe - I Corinth. 14:22.

Now here is the crux. If those who do not accept prophesy and interpretation of tongues which edify and exhort and comfort. Then more than likely they are not believers at all. Because interpretation of tongues and prophesy is "for" the believer. - I Corinth. 14:22Bless

I was perfectly willing to just let your post pass until I came to this part. When I see this kind of pride and judgmentalism, I feel bound to comment. It isn't "belittling" the Word of God to point out that tongues were for the early church...and they did cease as Paul says they would. They were practiced by the immature, who fancied themselves workers of miracles, and then they were gone...until the 1800's when someone decided they were equal with the Apostles and brought them back.

One doesn't have to speak gibberish to pray in the Spirit. When I pray, I pray ''in the Spirit" because I'm of the Spirit not the flesh. From your post, you show forth a spirit of pride. I'm left to assume you have not reached any level of spiritual maturity...which may be why you still require signs.

 

[glorydaz]

Problem is, there is no such term as "unknown tongue" written in God's Word. The KJV translators added the word "unknown" in 1 Cor.14. It is not in the original Greek NT manuscripts at all.

Thus God's Word is referring to languages, whether one understands the language or not, and not to some hidden mystical angelic tongue. In Acts 2 it is called the "cloven tongue", which has nothing to do with the word 'unknown'. The idea of cloven simply means divided like for distribution. That's a sign of the original language prior to Babel.

I believe what happened at Pentecost was clearly a miracle...each heard in his own language. Then when word spread about what happened there, immature believers, like those at Corinth, attempted to replicate that miracle in their own assembly. Paul didn't refuse them from doing so, but he did encourage them to move on to spiritual maturity...telling them of a more excellent way. You don't see that problem in any later epistles, for the church was maturing. For some reason, men brought it back, claiming the church could replicate all the miracles of the Apostles. Now we see men claiming they have the gift of healing, when healing comes through God's mercy in answer to prayer. We see men claiming to raise the dead.....in my view, these are signs of the end times...not the manifestation of the Spirit.