1 Corinthians 12-14

[glorydaz]

As I have studied Pauls writings..It seems that every book of the New Testament written by Paul was a letter to a particular church, or to believers in a particular city, or to specific individuals. He always referred to his letters as "letters," not as new books of Scripture. Here are all of the places in the New Testament where Paul made a reference to his own writings: 1 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Corinthians 7:8, 10:9-11, Colossians 4:16, 1 Thessalonians 5:27, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 3:14, 17. Paul never referred to his letters as new books of Scripture, nor did he ever describe anyone else's writings as being new books of Scripture. Certainly Paul's letters are inspired Scripture, but the point is that Paul never made any kind of reference to a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures. We have no Scriptural evidence for taking Paul's vague statement, "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," as being a reference to the completed New Testament because Paul never mentioned such a thing as a "New Testament." After Paul died, roughly 75 years went by before anyone even tried to formally put together a new set of Scriptures, which we now call "the New Testament". This makes it even less likely that Paul had such a thing in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

The letters Paul and others wrote, and their teachings were the Word of God. As believers had that Word revealed to their hearts, they matured. That which is "perfect" (mature) comes from reading and hearing the Word of God. It doesn't matter that the "New Testament" had not been compiled. What does matter is that believers were being perfected (maturing) as they partook of the Word of God.

 

[awaken]

As I have studied Pauls writings..It seems that every book of the New Testament written by Paul was a letter to a particular church, or to believers in a particular city, or to specific individuals. He always referred to his letters as "letters," not as new books of Scripture. Here are all of the places in the New Testament where Paul made a reference to his own writings: 1 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Corinthians 7:8, 10:9-11, Colossians 4:16, 1 Thessalonians 5:27, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 3:14, 17. Paul never referred to his letters as new books of Scripture, nor did he ever describe anyone else's writings as being new books of Scripture. Certainly Paul's letters are inspired Scripture, but the point is that Paul never made any kind of reference to a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures. We have no Scriptural evidence for taking Paul's vague statement, "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," as being a reference to the completed New Testament because Paul never mentioned such a thing as a "New Testament." After Paul died, roughly 75 years went by before anyone even tried to formally put together a new set of Scriptures, which we now call "the New Testament". This makes it even less likely that Paul had such a thing in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

The letters Paul and others wrote, and their teachings were the Word of God. As believers had that Word revealed to their hearts, they matured. That which is "perfect" (mature) comes from reading and hearing the Word of God. It doesn't matter that the "New Testament" had not been compiled. What does matter is that believers were being perfected (maturing) as they partook of the Word of God.

I did not insinuate that they were not the word of God. And we are still maturing...and still need the gifts.

Since Paul used a description of spiritual maturity to elaborate on his statement that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," it provides further confirmation that this "perfection" does not refer to the completion of the New Testament.


The next illustration that Paul used to describe "perfection" (which immediately follows the previous illustration):
"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face." (1 Corinthians 13:12)
The exact same Greek phrase ("see face to face") is used in the Greek version of the Old Testament for seeing God face to face (Genesis 32:30), and the apostle John confirms for us that we will see God as He is (face to face) after Jesus returns for us and "perfects" our bodies. (1 John 3:2).

Paul explained his statement about "perfection" by saying that "we shall see face to face," and we can see that it has nothing to do with the completion of the New Testament. Instead, it refers to our being transformed and taken into heaven when Jesus comes for us. Since Paul used this illustration to elaborate on his statement that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," it provides further confirmation that this "perfection" does not refer to the completion of the New Testament.

 

[Free]

Again, there is no evidence to suggest that Paul had the completed New Testament in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Instead, the evidence indicates that "perfection" refers to our ultimate maturity as believers.


Paul said that when "perfection" comes, the "imperfect" will disappear. It is clear from the context that the word "imperfect" refers to the spiritual gifts that are mentioned, although this obviously does not mean that the Holy Spirit is imperfect or that His gifts are imperfect! The gifts of the Spirit are for our use while we are in these fallen, physical bodies on earth, and it is our use of the spiritual gifts which is imperfect, because Paul said that "we know in part and we prophesy in part." However, when "perfection" comes (meaning the perfection or completion of our salvation when we get to heaven) then we will no longer need these gifts of the Spirit because our previous, mortal, fallen state of existence will be completely done away with. It is this completion and perfection of our salvation which Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians 13:10, not the completion of the New Testament.

Agreed. To say that the "perfect" is referring to Scripture or the maturation of believers in this life is incorrect. To say it refers to Scripture would be to say that Paul had some knowledge that the Scriptures they had were incomplete, something he doesn't state anywhere else.

To say that Paul was referring to the maturation of believers in this life is to ignore that at no point in the history of the Church has there been a time that it could have been said that all believers have reached a level of maturity so that the gifts weren't needed anymore. One should expect that in such a time would there would have been complete unity of all believers. The other option would be to say that Paul was referring to the perfection or maturity of the individual, not the corporate body. But in that case the "immature" believers would be prophesying, speaking in tongues, and having words of knowledge, while the "mature" would be doing none of those things. That seems rather backwards, especially since these gifts were used for both for proclaiming the gospel to the unsaved and in the edification of believers.

So it makes no sense to say that the "perfect" to which Paul was referring has come and that tongues, knowledge, and prophesy have ceased.

 

[awaken]

Paul's final illustration in the 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 passage to me...puts the whole issue to rest:

"Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

This does not describe the completion of the New Testament, because the New Testament was completed almost two thousand years ago and yet we still do not "know fully, even as [we are] fully known." Having a complete New Testament has not caused us to have a full, complete knowledge of God nor has it caused us to individually become "fully known" to one another.

Paul said, "when perfection comes...then I shall know fully" (1 Corinthians 13:12). Some people believe that this "perfection" refers to the completion of the New Testament, but Paul did not live to see the completion of the New Testament. Paul's use of the word "perfection" cannot be a reference to the completed New Testament because that would contradict his statement that he himself would "know fully" when perfection comes.

 

[glorydaz]

As I have studied Pauls writings..It seems that every book of the New Testament written by Paul was a letter to a particular church, or to believers in a particular city, or to specific individuals. He always referred to his letters as "letters," not as new books of Scripture. Here are all of the places in the New Testament where Paul made a reference to his own writings: 1 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Corinthians 7:8, 10:9-11, Colossians 4:16, 1 Thessalonians 5:27, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 3:14, 17. Paul never referred to his letters as new books of Scripture, nor did he ever describe anyone else's writings as being new books of Scripture. Certainly Paul's letters are inspired Scripture, but the point is that Paul never made any kind of reference to a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures. We have no Scriptural evidence for taking Paul's vague statement, "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," as being a reference to the completed New Testament because Paul never mentioned such a thing as a "New Testament." After Paul died, roughly 75 years went by before anyone even tried to formally put together a new set of Scriptures, which we now call "the New Testament". This makes it even less likely that Paul had such a thing in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

The letters Paul and others wrote, and their teachings were the Word of God. As believers had that Word revealed to their hearts, they matured. That which is "perfect" (mature) comes from reading and hearing the Word of God. It doesn't matter that the "New Testament" had not been compiled. What does matter is that believers were being perfected (maturing) as they partook of the Word of God.

I did not insinuate that they were not the word of God. And we are still maturing...and still need the gifts.

Since Paul used a description of spiritual maturity to elaborate on his statement that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," it provides further confirmation that this "perfection" does not refer to the completion of the New Testament.


The next illustration that Paul used to describe "perfection" (which immediately follows the previous illustration):
"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face." (1 Corinthians 13:12)
The exact same Greek phrase ("see face to face") is used in the Greek version of the Old Testament for seeing God face to face (Genesis 32:30), and the apostle John confirms for us that we will see God as He is (face to face) after Jesus returns for us and "perfects" our bodies. (1 John 3:2).

Paul explained his statement about "perfection" by saying that "we shall see face to face," and we can see that it has nothing to do with the completion of the New Testament. Instead, it refers to our being transformed and taken into heaven when Jesus comes for us. Since Paul used this illustration to elaborate on his statement that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," it provides further confirmation that this "perfection" does not refer to the completion of the New Testament.

No, it is speaking of our becoming mature spiritually by reading the Word of God. It is speaking of the sanctification process, that as we mature in the Lord, we see Him face to face. It has nothing to do with whether Scripture was completed, but whether the believer is made perfect (mature). We still need gifts, but we do not require miracles...signs and wonders. We have the Spirit of God living in us.

Many will take the word perfect to mean we are sinless. As Paul uses the word, he means mature in Christ. We can, indeed, be perfect (mature in Christ) here on this earth...before we get to heaven. This is not speaking of our physical body being transformed, it's talking about our spiritual walk here on earth.

The veil has been taken away...."we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord." We don't have to wait until we get to heaven to see God "face to face". We have access into His presence through Jesus Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Abraham, Moses and Jacob were the OT examples of men who saw God "face to face". We don't have to wait until we get to heaven to see God "face to face". All those verses where Paul speaks of our being "perfect" are what we can have now as we're faithful in the "house of God". Those in the body of Christ, who walk faithfully, as we become "perfect" (mature) will see God "face to face".

 

[awaken]

As I said in the beginning..I understand that many interpret scipture different. But from what I have studied out this is where I stand on 1 Cor. chapter 13.

All of the evidence indicates that the "perfection" which Paul described is our transformation from mortal, corruptible bodies to perfect, immortal, incorruptible bodies. There is no suggestion in any of these verses, nor anywhere else in Scripture, that the completed New Testament is the "perfection" which Paul spoke of.

Paul said that certain spiritual gifts will cease to function when perfection comes, meaning that we will no longer need these gifts after we are with Christ and we receive our perfect, glorified bodies. This has not yet happened, and therefore all of the gifts of the Spirit are still functioning in the body of Christ, including tongues, prophecies, words of knowledge, and so on. There are no passages anywhere in the New Testament which tell us that any gifts of the Spirit will ever "die out" during the Church Age.

 

[Mysteryman]

Those who do not speak in tongues should in no way bring down the Word of God, so that you will not feel left out, or in some way feel belittled. That should never happen ! The Word should never be brought down to someone's level of believing. This belittles the Word of God, instead of magnifying the Word of God. God magnified his Word above his name, and no one should bring it down below that which God has magnified it.

For those who do speak in tongues, I encourage you to increase speaking in tongues in your private prayer life. I also encourage speaking in tognues in fellowships with there being interpretation of tongues by you yourself who just spoke in tongues. Interpretation of tongues and prophecy should edify and exhort and comfort. It should edify and exhort and comfort those who also do not speak in tongues. These are words in your own language that you should fully understand. This is what interpretation of tongues and prophecy should accomplish ! Interpretation of tongues and prophecy is a sign unto those who believe - I Corinth. 14:22.

Now here is the crux. If those who do not accept prophesy and interpretation of tongues which edify and exhort and comfort. Then more than likely they are not believers at all. Because interpretation of tongues and prophesy is "for" the believer. - I Corinth. 14:22Bless

I was perfectly willing to just let your post pass until I came to this part. When I see this kind of pride and judgmentalism, I feel bound to comment. It isn't "belittling" the Word of God to point out that tongues were for the early church...and they did cease as Paul says they would. They were practiced by the immature, who fancied themselves workers of miracles, and then they were gone...until the 1800's when someone decided they were equal with the Apostles and brought them back.

One doesn't have to speak gibberish to pray in the Spirit. When I pray, I pray ''in the Spirit" because I'm of the Spirit not the flesh. From your post, you show forth a spirit of pride. I'm left to assume you have not reached any level of spiritual maturity...which may be why you still require signs.

Hi glorydaz

Nothing I said was based upon pride or judmentalism. It is just a fact from the scriptures. Interpretation of tongues and prophesy is for the believer not the unbeliever. Again, we are not dealing with a believer in Jesus Christ. We are dealing with a believer or unbeliever in the manifestations of the Spirit. And tongues is for a sign unto the unbeliever, and interpretation of tongues and prophesy is for the believer.

Speaking in tongues is not gibberish. Which btw is a comment from one who does not believe in the manifestations of the Spirit. And the scriptures are also clear, that not all will speak in tongues and interpret tongues and prophesy, etc. However, that does not make tongues and interpretation of tongues and prophesy nul and void, just because an unbeliever of the manifestations does not agree .

We still know in part, and thus that which is perfect has not come as of yet. When that which is perfect has come, then we will no longer know in part. But for now, the manifestations are still in effect. And they will not cease until that which is perfect is come.

 

[Mysteryman]

As I said in the beginning..I understand that many interpret scipture different. But from what I have studied out this is where I stand on 1 Cor. chapter 13.

All of the evidence indicates that the "perfection" which Paul described is our transformation from mortal, corruptible bodies to perfect, immortal, incorruptible bodies. There is no suggestion in any of these verses, nor anywhere else in Scripture, that the completed New Testament is the "perfection" which Paul spoke of.

Paul said that certain spiritual gifts will cease to function when perfection comes, meaning that we will no longer need these gifts after we are with Christ and we receive our perfect, glorified bodies. This has not yet happened, and therefore all of the gifts of the Spirit are still functioning in the body of Christ, including tongues, prophecies, words of knowledge, and so on. There are no passages anywhere in the New Testament which tell us that any gifts of the Spirit will ever "die out" during the Church Age.

Correct !

And ---- :amen

 

[glorydaz]

Agreed. To say that the "perfect" is referring to Scripture or the maturation of believers in this life is incorrect. To say it refers to Scripture would be to say that Paul had some knowledge that the Scriptures they had were incomplete, something he doesn't state anywhere else.

To say that Paul was referring to the maturation of believers in this life is to ignore that at no point in the history of the Church has there been a time that it could have been said that all believers have reached a level of maturity so that the gifts weren't needed anymore. One should expect that in such a time would there would have been complete unity of all believers. The other option would be to say that Paul was referring to the perfection or maturity of the individual, not the corporate body. But in that case the "immature" believers would be prophesying, speaking in tongues, and having words of knowledge, while the "mature" would be doing none of those things. That seems rather backwards, especially since these gifts were used for both for proclaiming the gospel to the unsaved and in the edification of believers.

So it makes no sense to say that the "perfect" to which Paul was referring has come and that tongues, knowledge, and prophesy have ceased.

It may not make sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me. Not necessarily the way you've presented what I've said, but the message itself. Spiritual maturity is never corporate, it's always on an individual basis. We mature based upon our understanding of the Word of God. As the Holy Spirit's fruit is manifest in our lives. It has nothing to do with whether the Scripture was complete at any given point in time. I have never claimed the gifts are no longer in effect. I've been very careful to differentiate between the sign gifts (miraculous), which were for the establishment of the church and those the Spirit gives to all believers as He sees fit.

There is worldly knowledge and there is perfect knowledge, which is why Paul, in 1 Cor. spoke of a more excellent way. It isn't a gift of the Spirit if it's spoken with the wisdom of men.

I do see perfect unity among many in the body of Christ...certainly not on an internet forum, but it does exist in the real world. The "perfecting of the saints" is speaking of maturity...no more children, tossed to and fro..." There can be no "unity" with the doctrines of the immature. The immature must move toward maturity...to the "knowledge of the Son"...not the other way around.

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

The same goes for prophecy...the predictive aspect of prophecy was complete...the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets and the establishment of the early church. Now, Paul tells us prophecy is comfort, edification, and encouragement as one explains or expounds on scripture.

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

 

[glorydaz]

All of the evidence indicates that the "perfection" which Paul described is our transformation from mortal, corruptible bodies to perfect, immortal, incorruptible bodies. There is no suggestion in any of these verses, nor anywhere else in Scripture, that the completed New Testament is the "perfection" which Paul spoke of.

That's odd since you provided many of the verses yourself.
Let's look at them again, shall we?

All of these verses speak of our being "perfect" (mature)...here in this life...not it heaven.
None of them speak of our bodies being transformed. This is all about the spiritual man.

1 Corinthians 2:6...Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

2 Corinthians 13:9...For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

2 Corinthians 13:11...Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Ephesians 4:12....For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Ephesians 4:13....Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 3:15....Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Colossians 1:28....Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 4:12....Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

2 Timothy 3:17....That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz

Nothing I said was based upon pride or judmentalism. It is just a fact from the scriptures. Interpretation of tongues and prophesy is for the believer not the unbeliever. Again, we are not dealing with a believer in Jesus Christ. We are dealing with a believer or unbeliever in the manifestations of the Spirit. And tongues is for a sign unto the unbeliever, and interpretation of tongues and prophesy is for the believer.

Speaking in tongues is not gibberish. Which btw is a comment from one who does not believe in the manifestations of the Spirit. And the scriptures are also clear, that not all will speak in tongues and interpret tongues and prophesy, etc. However, that does not make tongues and interpretation of tongues and prophesy nul and void, just because an unbeliever of the manifestations does not agree .

We still know in part, and thus that which is perfect has not come as of yet. When that which is perfect has come, then we will no longer know in part. But for now, the manifestations are still in effect. And they will not cease until that which is perfect is come.

I do believe in the manifestation of the Spirit...please don't claim I don't. I just don't believe in the manifestation you preach. And it is not "just a fact of scripture". It's certainly the way you choose to interpret scripture, but that does not make it line up with the Word. When I see someone claiming the manifestation of the Spirit is working signs and wonders that were afforded to the Apostles and prophets by means of miracles are to be practiced today, then I will challenge that. When I see someone claiming the manifestation of tongues, which were given at Pentecost and have been changed into something else, I will challenge that, as well. One's personal experience doesn't trump the Word of God, and we obviously do not see eye to eye on the what the Word teaches.

The debate seems to be over the word "perfect", which Paul uses elsewhere as "full grown" and "mature". I see him referring to the sanctification of the believer ...putting off childish things and moving on to "more excellent things" as Paul goes on to teach. And the fact is, tongues did cease...for nearly 1800 years. They were brought back and are being greatly abused in many churches across this land. They do not lead people to Christ, but they certainly do distract the church from it's mission of preaching the message of salvation to all the world.

 

[awaken]

All of the evidence indicates that the "perfection" which Paul described is our transformation from mortal, corruptible bodies to perfect, immortal, incorruptible bodies. There is no suggestion in any of these verses, nor anywhere else in Scripture, that the completed New Testament is the "perfection" which Paul spoke of.

That's odd since you provided many of the verses yourself.
Let's look at them again, shall we?

All of these verses speak of our being "perfect" (mature)...here in this life...not it heaven.
None of them speak of our bodies being transformed. This is all about the spiritual man.

1 Corinthians 2:6...Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

2 Corinthians 13:9...For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

2 Corinthians 13:11...Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Ephesians 4:12....For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Ephesians 4:13....Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 3:15....Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Colossians 1:28....Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 4:12....Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

2 Timothy 3:17....That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Do you know as you are known?...1 John 3:2 " Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

What scripture are you using to say some of the gifts are not manifested today?

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi glorydaz

Nothing I said was based upon pride or judmentalism. It is just a fact from the scriptures. Interpretation of tongues and prophesy is for the believer not the unbeliever. Again, we are not dealing with a believer in Jesus Christ. We are dealing with a believer or unbeliever in the manifestations of the Spirit. And tongues is for a sign unto the unbeliever, and interpretation of tongues and prophesy is for the believer.

Speaking in tongues is not gibberish. Which btw is a comment from one who does not believe in the manifestations of the Spirit. And the scriptures are also clear, that not all will speak in tongues and interpret tongues and prophesy, etc. However, that does not make tongues and interpretation of tongues and prophesy nul and void, just because an unbeliever of the manifestations does not agree .

We still know in part, and thus that which is perfect has not come as of yet. When that which is perfect has come, then we will no longer know in part. But for now, the manifestations are still in effect. And they will not cease until that which is perfect is come.

I do believe in the manifestation of the Spirit...please don't claim I don't. I just don't believe in the manifestation you preach. And it is not "just a fact of scripture". It's certainly the way you choose to interpret scripture, but that does not make it line up with the Word. When I see someone claiming the manifestation of the Spirit is working signs and wonders that were afforded to the Apostles and prophets by means of miracles are to be practiced today, then I will challenge that. When I see someone claiming the manifestation of tongues, which were given at Pentecost and have been changed into something else, I will challenge that, as well. One's personal experience doesn't trump the Word of God, and we obviously do not see eye to eye on the what the Word teaches.

The debate seems to be over the word "perfect", which Paul uses elsewhere as "full grown" and "mature". I see him referring to the sanctification of the believer ...putting off childish things and moving on to "more excellent things" as Paul goes on to teach. And the fact is, tongues did cease...for nearly 1800 years. They were brought back and are being greatly abused in many churches across this land. They do not lead people to Christ, but they certainly do distract the church from it's mission of preaching the message of salvation to all the world.

Hi

You can not claim to believe in the manifestations of the Spirit and then call speaking in tongues gibberish. That would be impossible !

The nine manifestations of the Spirit are listed in I Corinth. 12:7 - "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal"

Verse 8 - "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge, by the same Spirit"

verse 9 - "To another faith by the same Spirit ; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit"

verse 10 - "To another the working of miracles ; to another prophecy; to another discerining of spirits; to another kinds of tongues, to another interpretation of tongues"

Now comes verse 11 - "But "all" these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will"

And lets not forget verse 3 which states that no man can call Jesus Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. And in verse 4 it states , that there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And in verse 6 it tells us that it is the same God which worketh all in all".

None of these gifts , which are called manifestations of the Spirit have ceased as of yet. That is because we only know in part, and speak in part, and manifest in part. That which is perfect has not yet come.

The same with baptism - I Corinth. 12:13 - "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ----- and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. < This is the one baptism in the unity of the Spirit.

Paul tells the church in I Corinth. 14:5 - "I would that ye all spake with tongues" < This is not gibberish ! This is one of the manifestations of the Spirit.

Then Paul tells the church in verse 13 - "Wherefore let him that speaketh in a tongue pray that he may interpret. < All of this is encouragement by the Apostle Paul, not discouragement !

Those who have not come to this spiritual growth, Paul tells them that not all will speak in tongues and manifest. For them, Paul states in I Corinth. 12:31 desire earnestly the best gifts, which is charity = agape love, which never fails.

Paul did not want those who still needed to grow spiritually , to lack understanding. He wanted them to understand, that if you have not believed to manifest yet, that you still can put on love, which never fails. Paul goes on to explain that tongues is a sign unto those who have not come to believe as of yet. But that interpretation of tongues and prophecy is for those who have come to believe. They who have come to believe, understand the manifold wisdom of God. This is why they bring forth words of comfort, exhortatin and edification. And Paul states in I Corinth. 14:5 that interpretation of tongues and prophecy edifys the church. < Then and now ! "That the church may receive edification"

The Church has not ended. The church still needs edification from God. And this comes about through the manifestations of interpretation of tongues and prophesy. < These two are "for" the church unto edification !

Blesss

 

[watchman F]

When I see someone claiming the manifestation of the Spirit is working signs and wonders that were afforded to the Apostles and prophets by means of miracles are to be practiced today, then I will challenge that. When I see someone claiming the manifestation of tongues, which were given at Pentecost and have been changed into something else, I will challenge that, as well. One's personal experience doesn't trump the Word of God, and we obviously do not see eye to eye on the what the Word teaches.

Seems to me like you are continually challenging God's truth.

 

[glorydaz]

That's odd since you provided many of the verses yourself.
Let's look at them again, shall we?

All of these verses speak of our being "perfect" (mature)...here in this life...not it heaven.
None of them speak of our bodies being transformed. This is all about the spiritual man.

1 Corinthians 2:6...Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

2 Corinthians 13:9...For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

2 Corinthians 13:11...Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Ephesians 4:12....For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Ephesians 4:13....Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 3:15....Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Colossians 1:28....Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 4:12....Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

2 Timothy 3:17....That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Do you know as you are known?...1 John 3:2 " Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

What scripture are you using to say some of the gifts are not manifested today?

This verse in John has nothing to do with the "perfect" (mature) Paul is speaking of in all those other verses. Being mature in Christ does not mean we have reached our final state when we will have been "refined" and stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Once again, we are not speaking of when we are given our spiritual bodies and are translated into His wonderful presence. We are speaking of the perfecting of the saints here on earth. We go from babes, to young men, to old men....we're speaking of our spiritual walk while in this flesh, not our future glory. At least that's what we're supposed to be talking about when we're discussing Paul's use of the word "perfect".

Once again, I am not saying the gifts are not manifest today.
I believe I've been very clear on that, and have provided plenty of scriptural support already.

I am saying that the immature church in Corinth was taking liberties with the manifestation of the gifts, and Paul was attempting to show them a more excellent way...encouraging them to desire the best gifts and know what those gifts actually were instead of what they presumed them to be.

Why didn't Jesus speak in "tongues"? Why aren't tongues mentioned among the gifts in any other epistles? Why doesn't Paul mention them to any other church? Why just this group of carnal babes in Christ?

Why is the exact same Greek word used for what happened at Pentecost when men heard their own language being spoken?

Paul became all things to all people in order to preach the Gospel. To the weak, he became as the weak...he did that for the Gospel's sake. He didn't go in there and say, you guys need to stop this silliness...no more than I would go into my friend's church and say such a thing. Paul did put forth the way to go on into maturity by showing them a "more excellent" way.

For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

 

[glorydaz]

I do believe in the manifestation of the Spirit...please don't claim I don't. I just don't believe in the manifestation you preach. And it is not "just a fact of scripture". It's certainly the way you choose to interpret scripture, but that does not make it line up with the Word. When I see someone claiming the manifestation of the Spirit is working signs and wonders that were afforded to the Apostles and prophets by means of miracles are to be practiced today, then I will challenge that. When I see someone claiming the manifestation of tongues, which were given at Pentecost and have been changed into something else, I will challenge that, as well. One's personal experience doesn't trump the Word of God, and we obviously do not see eye to eye on the what the Word teaches.

The debate seems to be over the word "perfect", which Paul uses elsewhere as "full grown" and "mature". I see him referring to the sanctification of the believer ...putting off childish things and moving on to "more excellent things" as Paul goes on to teach. And the fact is, tongues did cease...for nearly 1800 years. They were brought back and are being greatly abused in many churches across this land. They do not lead people to Christ, but they certainly do distract the church from it's mission of preaching the message of salvation to all the world.

Hi

You can not claim to believe in the manifestations of the Spirit and then call speaking in tongues gibberish. That would be impossible !

The nine manifestations of the Spirit are listed in I Corinth. 12:7 - "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal"

Verse 8 - "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge, by the same Spirit"

verse 9 - "To another faith by the same Spirit ; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit"

verse 10 - "To another the working of miracles ; to another prophecy; to another discerining of spirits; to another kinds of tongues, to another interpretation of tongues"

Now comes verse 11 - "But "all" these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, cividing to everfy man serverally as he will"

And lets not forget verse 3 which states that no man can call Jesus Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. And in verse 4 it states , that there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And in verse 6 it tells us that it is the same God which worketh all in all".

None of these gifts , which are called manifestations of the Spirit have ceased as of yet. That is because we only know in part, and speak in part, and manifest in part. That which is perfect has not yet come.

The same with baptism - I Corinth. 12:13 - "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ----- and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. < This is the one baptism in the unity of the Spirit.

Paul tells the church in I Corinth. 14:5 - "I would that ye all spake with tongues" < This is not gibberish ! This is one of the manifestations of the Spirit.

Then Paul tells the church in verse 13 - "Wherefore let him that speaketh in a tongue pray that he may interpret. < All of this is encouragement by the Apostle Paul, not discouragement !

Those who have not come to this spiritual growth, Paul tells them that not all will speak in tongues and manifest. For them, Paul states in I Corinth. 12:31 desire earnestly the best gifts, which is charity = agape love, which never fails.

Paul did not want those who still needed to grow spiritually , to lack understanding. He wanted them to understand, that if you have not believed to manifest yet, that you still can put on love, which never fails. Paul goes on to explain that tongues is a sign unto those who have not come to believe as of yet. But that interpretation of tongues and prophecy is for those who have come to believe. They who have come to believe, understand the manifold wisdom of God. This is why they bring forth words of comfort, exhortatin and edification. And Paul states in I Corinth. 14:5 that interpretation of tongues and prophecy edifys the church. < Then and now ! "That the church may receive edification"

The Church has not ended. The church still needs edification from God. And this comes about through the manifestations of interpretation of tongues and prophesy. < These two are "for" the church unto edification !

Blesss

I most certainly can. I just don't need to become weak to preach to the weak as Paul did to the church in Corinth. I'm able to rightly decide what Paul was saying in regards to their manifestation of the gifts.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

The Spirit gives gifts...no doubt. I see them listed below.

So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. 9Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of
men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

 

[glorydaz]

When I see someone claiming the manifestation of the Spirit is working signs and wonders that were afforded to the Apostles and prophets by means of miracles are to be practiced today, then I will challenge that. When I see someone claiming the manifestation of tongues, which were given at Pentecost and have been changed into something else, I will challenge that, as well. One's personal experience doesn't trump the Word of God, and we obviously do not see eye to eye on the what the Word teaches.

Seems to me like you are continually challenging God's truth.

It may seem that way, but I'm actually challenging you to move on to the "more excellent way".

I just want you to move away from the milk, and dine on the meat as Paul did the Corinthian church.

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

 

[Mysteryman]

When I see someone claiming the manifestation of the Spirit is working signs and wonders that were afforded to the Apostles and prophets by means of miracles are to be practiced today, then I will challenge that. When I see someone claiming the manifestation of tongues, which were given at Pentecost and have been changed into something else, I will challenge that, as well. One's personal experience doesn't trump the Word of God, and we obviously do not see eye to eye on the what the Word teaches.

Seems to me like you are continually challenging God's truth.

It may seem that way, but I'm actually challenging you to move on to the "more excellent way".

I just want you to move away from the milk, and dine on the meat as Paul did the Corinthian church.
[quote="1 Corinthians 3:2":3m1i6195]I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

[/quote:3m1i6195]



Paul spoke in tongues more than ye all - I Corinth. 14:18 < He encouraged speaking in tongues !

Tongues are for a sign to those who do not believe in speaking in tongues (manifestations of the Spirit) - I Corinth. 14:22. These people need a sign. Whether they believe it or not !

 

[Free]

Agreed. To say that the "perfect" is referring to Scripture or the maturation of believers in this life is incorrect. To say it refers to Scripture would be to say that Paul had some knowledge that the Scriptures they had were incomplete, something he doesn't state anywhere else.

To say that Paul was referring to the maturation of believers in this life is to ignore that at no point in the history of the Church has there been a time that it could have been said that all believers have reached a level of maturity so that the gifts weren't needed anymore. One should expect that in such a time would there would have been complete unity of all believers. The other option would be to say that Paul was referring to the perfection or maturity of the individual, not the corporate body. But in that case the "immature" believers would be prophesying, speaking in tongues, and having words of knowledge, while the "mature" would be doing none of those things. That seems rather backwards, especially since these gifts were used for both for proclaiming the gospel to the unsaved and in the edification of believers.

So it makes no sense to say that the "perfect" to which Paul was referring has come and that tongues, knowledge, and prophesy have ceased.

It may not make sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me. Not necessarily the way you've presented what I've said, but the message itself. Spiritual maturity is never corporate, it's always on an individual basis. We mature based upon our understanding of the Word of God. As the Holy Spirit's fruit is manifest in our lives.

So then your argument that Paul is referring to the maturity of individual believers as the basis for the cessation of tongues, prophecy and words of knowledge runs into some serious difficulty. How can these gifts to the Church as a body cease completely for use in the Church when individuals come to maturity? How many individual believers did it take to come to maturity before these corporate gifts ceased?

It has nothing to do with whether the Scripture was complete at any given point in time.

I agree. I never said otherwise. But what then do you mean by "No, it is speaking of our becoming mature spiritually by reading the Word of God"? Your statement seems to imply that Scripture would need to be complete in order for one to be able to read the Word and become "mature spiritually."

I have never claimed the gifts are no longer in effect. I've been very careful to differentiate between the sign gifts (miraculous), which were for the establishment of the church and those the Spirit gives to all believers as He sees fit.

The point which I was clearly addressing was in relation to what is the "perfect" that brings about the cessation of tongues, prophecy and knowledge. You stated earlier:

"It isn't "belittling" the Word of God to point out that tongues were for the early church...and they did cease as Paul says they would."

 

[Free]

It may seem that way, but I'm actually challenging you to move on to the "more excellent way".

I just want you to move away from the milk, and dine on the meat as Paul did the Corinthian church.

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

If you want to challenge others to a more excellent way, begin by taking verses in context and seeing to what it is that "milk" refers. Don't presume that milk refers to tongues when there is zero basis for doing so.