1 Corinthians 12-14

[glorydaz]

Peter stood up and shared the gospel by his own native language, which of course is not speaking in tongues. He spoke, and told them that this was, what was spoken by the prophet Joel. So this was a witness of the prophesy of Joel coming to pass. Then in Acts 2:41 - they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, received the gift of the Holy Spirit upon them, and about three thousand souls spoke in tongues.

Please show me from the Word where the three thousand spoke in tongues.

I took a picture with my polaroid camera. I will send you a picture. :rolling <verse 38 >

Sorry, your doctrine is showing.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Mysteryman]

Sorry, your doctrine is showing.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[/quote]




Hi glorydaz

In verse 38 it states -- "ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" ---- and everywhere we read of them receiving the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts , then they spoke in tongues !

Then in verse 41 it tells us that -- they that gladly received his word ( meaning the words of Peter ) were baptized ( with the gift of Holy Spirit ). And that same day were added about three thousand souls"

It is a simple deduction, that when these three thousand souls gladly received the words of Peter, they were baptized with the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues !

 

[mondar]

So then, does tongues cease before prophecy and knowledge?

Finally, in I cor 14....
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to the unbelieving: but prophesying is for a sign, not to the unbelieving, but to them that believe.
What is tongues a sign of? If it is given for the purpose of being a sign to unbelievers, who are the unbelievers? What is the relationship between tongues and the text given to us in verse 21?
21 In the law it is written, By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers will I speak unto this people; and not even thus will they hear me, saith the Lord.
And this is at best a quote from Isaiah. Why does Paul say "in the law it is written?"

Is it true that tongues is for a sign to unbelievers? Then why is it practiced in the prayer closet? or in church?

Just curious..when do you think tongues ended? And what do you think the purpose of tongues is for?

Thank you for the courtesy of your questions. As for the question of when tongues ended, the scripture is not totally clear on that one. It is clear that the "perfect" will do away with prophecy and knowledge in 1 Cor 13, but tongues are left out of vs 9 and the "part." The only thing we really have to determine when tongues ceased of themselves is evidence from Church History. The text says it is to cease....., not cease and restart. I cannot give a specific time or date, but sometime in the first century, tongues seems to be related more to the mystery religions and pagan cults then orthodox Christianity.

I see the public message given and interpreted in tongues for the unbeliever. Don't we still have unbelievers today? So why would God take that away from us...

I was not being specific about what kind of unbelievers tongues is a sign too. IF you look in your cross references, you will see that Pauls is quoting from a Hebrew poem in Isaiah where Assyria is invading Jewish territory. As a sign of Gods judgment the Assyrians speak to the Jews in a foreign tongue. Now in 1 Cor 14:21-22, Paul says this is from the "Law." Actually he quotes not from the Law, but from Isaiah. Isaiah is referring to a passage in Deuteronomy 28:49 (I think-I did not look it up here). If you look in Deuteronomy 28 and read the entire Chapter, you will see the blessings and cursings of the Law. The one curse in 28:49 has to do with foreign invaders speaking to the Jewish unbelievers under the curses of the Law (Deuteronomy 28).

So then, the unbelievers are specifically Jewish unbelievers. This is important because it leads to understanding the biblical "purpose" for tongues.

The biblical purpose for tongues is to show that Jewish unbelievers that Israel is under the curses of Deuteronomy 28. The Jews always seek for a sign, and God will give them a sign that the nation of Israel is under judgment. What better time to do this then immediately after the events of the cross, when the leaders of the nation had rejected their Messiah. So then, tongues should have happened at Pentecost, and it did. The purpose then, is not strictly evangelistic. It is not to win the lost, but to give Jewish unbelievers a sign.

I see at least two purposes for tongues..

A person delivers a public message in tongues from God to a group of people (such as a church congregation), which is then interpreted through the Holy Spirit either by the speaker or by someone in the congregation. The Bible refers to this as the "gift" of tongues, and it's used in combination with the gift of interpretation. Bible scholars sometimes refer to this as the "public" use of tongues.

A person prays in the Holy Spirit to God. When a person prays in the Spirit, this does not need to be interpreted into the local language because God always understands what the Holy Spirit is saying (although sometimes God gives us the interpretation of what we said in order to edify us and instruct us). The Bible refers to this as "praying in a tongue" (see 1 Corinthians 14:14), "praying with my spirit" (see 1 Corinthians 14:15), "praying in the Spirit" (see Ephesians 6:18), and "praying in the Holy Spirit" (see Jude 1:20). Bible scholars sometimes refer to this as the "private" use of tongues

Tongues were incorporated into the Corinthian Church and its worship. I think we have to understand that the letter to the Corinthian Church was a rebuke, not a didactic teaching tool. The Corinthian Church was a fleshly group of people. Many of them had connections to the pagan temples. The synchronization of Christianity and paganism was an issue. This is why the eating of meats sacrificed to idols came up. Tongues were a part of the pagan mystery religions, and also at times a part of the pagan worship of the polytheistic deities. When Christians became part of the Corinthian assembly, they may have brought this pagan misuse into the Corinthian Assembly and misused tongues. So Paul had to write and correct this misuse.

Because the book of Corinthians is not a model for tongues, I feel cautious about people building a system of worship related to Corinthian misuse of tongues. Something I notice is that in the 2nd biblical use of Tongues in Acts 10 and 11, the prototype of tongues is Acts 2. Acts 2 is the pattern or prototype. Notice this....
Acts 11:15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. (NIV) This is about Peter speaking of what happened at the house of Cornelius. Peter associates tongues with the prototype in Acts 2. He says "as he had come on us at the beginning." The interesting part about the Cornelius event is the question, how was this a "sign to unbelievers" as Paul later says in 1 Cor 14? It is also later to reoccur in Acts 19 in Ephesus with some disciples of John the Baptist. This then includes Jews, Gentiles, and Jews in the dispora. But Acts 2 remains the prototype.

If I can add, few people who believe in tongues will admit that 1 Cor 13:8 says that tongues will cease. However, in my opinion, the danger is not tongues, it is some of the doctrines that accompany tongues. If one believes in continued revelation, and prophets, or apostles, then there are far larger issues. That is a violation of biblical authority (bible alone). That is more the real issue. Those who connect tongues and prophecy are doing so on thin ice.

 

[glorydaz]

Just curious..when do you think tongues ended? And what do you think the purpose of tongues is for?

Thank you for the courtesy of your questions. As for the question of when tongues ended, the scripture is not totally clear on that one. It is clear that the "perfect" will do away with prophecy and knowledge in 1 Cor 13, but tongues are left out of vs 9 and the "part." The only thing we really have to determine when tongues ceased of themselves is evidence from Church History. The text says it is to cease....., not cease and restart. I cannot give a specific time or date, but sometime in the first century, tongues seems to be related more to the mystery religions and pagan cults then orthodox Christianity.

I see the public message given and interpreted in tongues for the unbeliever. Don't we still have unbelievers today? So why would God take that away from us...

I was not being specific about what kind of unbelievers tongues is a sign too. IF you look in your cross references, you will see that Pauls is quoting from a Hebrew poem in Isaiah where Assyria is invading Jewish territory. As a sign of Gods judgment the Assyrians speak to the Jews in a foreign tongue. Now in 1 Cor 14:21-22, Paul says this is from the "Law." Actually he quotes not from the Law, but from Isaiah. Isaiah is referring to a passage in Deuteronomy 28:49 (I think-I did not look it up here). If you look in Deuteronomy 28 and read the entire Chapter, you will see the blessings and cursings of the Law. The one curse in 28:49 has to do with foreign invaders speaking to the Jewish unbelievers under the curses of the Law (Deuteronomy 28).

So then, the unbelievers are specifically Jewish unbelievers. This is important because it leads to understanding the biblical "purpose" for tongues.

The biblical purpose for tongues is to show that Jewish unbelievers that Israel is under the curses of Deuteronomy 28. The Jews always seek for a sign, and God will give them a sign that the nation of Israel is under judgment. What better time to do this then immediately after the events of the cross, when the leaders of the nation had rejected their Messiah. So then, tongues should have happened at Pentecost, and it did. The purpose then, is not strictly evangelistic. It is not to win the lost, but to give Jewish unbelievers a sign.

I see at least two purposes for tongues..

A person delivers a public message in tongues from God to a group of people (such as a church congregation), which is then interpreted through the Holy Spirit either by the speaker or by someone in the congregation. The Bible refers to this as the "gift" of tongues, and it's used in combination with the gift of interpretation. Bible scholars sometimes refer to this as the "public" use of tongues.

A person prays in the Holy Spirit to God. When a person prays in the Spirit, this does not need to be interpreted into the local language because God always understands what the Holy Spirit is saying (although sometimes God gives us the interpretation of what we said in order to edify us and instruct us). The Bible refers to this as "praying in a tongue" (see 1 Corinthians 14:14), "praying with my spirit" (see 1 Corinthians 14:15), "praying in the Spirit" (see Ephesians 6:18), and "praying in the Holy Spirit" (see Jude 1:20). Bible scholars sometimes refer to this as the "private" use of tongues

Tongues were incorporated into the Corinthian Church and its worship. I think we have to understand that the letter to the Corinthian Church was a rebuke, not a didactic teaching tool. The Corinthian Church was a fleshly group of people. Many of them had connections to the pagan temples. The synchronization of Christianity and paganism was an issue. This is why the eating of meats sacrificed to idols came up. Tongues were a part of the pagan mystery religions, and also at times a part of the pagan worship of the polytheistic deities. When Christians became part of the Corinthian assembly, they may have brought this pagan misuse into the Corinthian Assembly and misused tongues. So Paul had to write and correct this misuse.

Because the book of Corinthians is not a model for tongues, I feel cautious about people building a system of worship related to Corinthian misuse of tongues. Something I notice is that in the 2nd biblical use of Tongues in Acts 10 and 11, the prototype of tongues is Acts 2. Acts 2 is the pattern or prototype. Notice this....
Acts 11:15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. (NIV) This is about Peter speaking of what happened at the house of Cornelius. Peter associates tongues with the prototype in Acts 2. He says "as he had come on us at the beginning." The interesting part about the Cornelius event is the question, how was this a "sign to unbelievers" as Paul later says in 1 Cor 14? It is also later to reoccur in Acts 19 in Ephesus with some disciples of John the Baptist. This then includes Jews, Gentiles, and Jews in the dispora. But Acts 2 remains the prototype.

If I can add, few people who believe in tongues will admit that 1 Cor 13:8 says that tongues will cease. However, in my opinion, the danger is not tongues, it is some of the doctrines that accompany tongues. If one believes in continued revelation, and prophets, or apostles, then there are far larger issues. That is a violation of biblical authority (bible alone). That is more the real issue. Those who connect tongues and prophecy are doing so on thin ice.

:amen

 

[Mysteryman]

These last two posters must be Jewish then. :biglol

 

[glorydaz]

These last two posters must be Jewish then. :biglol

Do you ever have anything constructive to add to the conversation?

You continue to expose your immaturity.... :yes

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote mondar and an :amen from glorydaz : "So then, the unbelievers are specifically Jewish unbelievers. This is important because it leads to understanding the biblical "purpose" for tongues."



Tongues are operated by believers, and are a sign unto unbelievers - I Corinth. 14:22

 

[awaken]

Quote mondar and an :amen from glorydaz : "So then, the unbelievers are specifically Jewish unbelievers. This is important because it leads to understanding the biblical "purpose" for tongues."



Tongues are operated by believers, and are a sign unto unbelievers - I Corinth. 14:22

ok..I can see that now..because the sign was for the unbelievers=Jews..

 

[glorydaz]

Quote mondar and an :amen from glorydaz : "So then, the unbelievers are specifically Jewish unbelievers. This is important because it leads to understanding the biblical "purpose" for tongues."



Tongues are operated by believers, and are a sign unto unbelievers - I Corinth. 14:22

ok..I can see that now..because the sign was for the unbelievers=Jews..

How many Jews do you have in your congregation? :biglaugh

 

[stranger]

mondar

8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. (ASV)

When will or did tongues cease of themselves. I add the words "of themselves" but it is actually in the greek text in the tense of the word "?????????." I believe that is a middle tense verb and compared to the passive related to the words "done away."

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

If I can add a comment about the passive verbs related to prophecy and knowledge. Prophecy and knowledge are done away with by the perfect (see verse 10). In verse 9, Paul does not include tongues. He does not add "we speak in tongues in part." So then, when in verse 10, that which is in part that is done away with.... since tongues is not "in part" the "perfect" does not do away with it.

Hi mondar,

Greetings, we have discussed the prophesy in the past. Here is a thought about prophesy passing away:

Any existing prophesy that is unfilled cannot pass away until it is fulfilled. Otherwise the word of the Lord has returned to Him empty without achieving the purpose for which it was sent. (Is 55:11).

Since many (exisiting) prophesies pertain to the end of the age, AND the age ended (which has not happened) would you agree that prophesy has not passed away? Who is better qualified to interpret prophesy than those with the prophetic gift?


blessings brother

 

[awaken]

mondar

8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. (ASV)

When will or did tongues cease of themselves. I add the words "of themselves" but it is actually in the greek text in the tense of the word "?????????." I believe that is a middle tense verb and compared to the passive related to the words "done away."

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

If I can add a comment about the passive verbs related to prophecy and knowledge. Prophecy and knowledge are done away with by the perfect (see verse 10). In verse 9, Paul does not include tongues. He does not add "we speak in tongues in part." So then, when in verse 10, that which is in part that is done away with.... since tongues is not "in part" the "perfect" does not do away with it.

Hi mondar,

Greetings, we have discussed the prophesy in the past. Here is a thought about prophesy passing away:

Any existing prophesy that is unfilled cannot pass away until it is fulfilled. Otherwise the word of the Lord has returned to Him empty without achieving the purpose for which it was sent. (Is 55:11).

Since many (exisiting) prophesies pertain to the end of the age, AND the age ended (which has not happened) would you agree that prophesy has not passed away? Who is better qualified to interpret prophesy than those with the prophetic gift?


blessings brother

good point

 

[jasoncran]

then toungues should be in the messianic jews for jesus movement.

they primarily cater to the jews.

 

[glorydaz]

mondar

8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. (ASV)

When will or did tongues cease of themselves. I add the words "of themselves" but it is actually in the greek text in the tense of the word "?????????." I believe that is a middle tense verb and compared to the passive related to the words "done away."

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

If I can add a comment about the passive verbs related to prophecy and knowledge. Prophecy and knowledge are done away with by the perfect (see verse 10). In verse 9, Paul does not include tongues. He does not add "we speak in tongues in part." So then, when in verse 10, that which is in part that is done away with.... since tongues is not "in part" the "perfect" does not do away with it.

Hi mondar,

Greetings, we have discussed the prophesy in the past. Here is a thought about prophesy passing away:

Any existing prophesy that is unfilled cannot pass away until it is fulfilled. Otherwise the word of the Lord has returned to Him empty without achieving the purpose for which it was sent. (Is 55:11).

Since many (exisiting) prophesies pertain to the end of the age, AND the age ended (which has not happened) would you agree that prophesy has not passed away? Who is better qualified to interpret prophesy than those with the prophetic gift?


blessings brother

good point

God is the author of all prophecy....He is also the interpreter of all prophecy. No prophecy is for private interpretation, so prophets have no more ability to interpret than anyone else. Prophets only spoke what the Lord told them, and they only interpreted that prophecy as the Lord told them.