Bible Study 1 John 5:16-17

[duval]

Major Premise: Confessed sin will be forgiven---I Jn.17-9
Minor Premise: There is a sin not forgiven- - - 1Jn.5:15-17
Conclusion: Thus sin unto death is sin not confessed.
Many happy days, Duval

 

[stovebolts]

Major Premise: Confessed sin will be forgiven---I Jn.17-9
Minor Premise: There is a sin not forgiven- - - 1Jn.5:15-17
Conclusion: Thus sin unto death is sin not confessed.
Many happy days, Duval

Hi Duval,

Two questions if I could.


1. Define sin.
2. a. Define confess,
b. Who must confess sins [before God]
i. Person committing sin
ii. Person not committing sin, but aware of anothers sin.
c. In what manner must confession be articulated to recieve forgiveness?

 

[duval]

Hi
1. John is writing to those already in Christ---I Jn.2:1
2. Define sin---I Jn.3:4
3. Those in Christ when we sin---I Jn.1:7-10
4. Define this confession of I John 5---I understand it would include repentance and prayer for forgiveness---Acts 8:18-24
5. How articulated? Acts 8:18-24. I do not understand this confession of I Jn.5 to be the one made before baptism that Jesus is the Christ, Acts 8:36-39, but rather the confession that we have sinned, I Jn.1:7-9

God bless, Duval

 

[stovebolts]

I see, thank you duval for your reply.

While you have addressed an obvious faucet of sin and confession, I am still troubled by your statment, "Conclusion: Thus sin unto death is sin not confessed."

Scripture states,
1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
And what is unrightousness?
1 John 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Here we can see that our sins can be made known (confirmed or exposed) by what is written in the Law (Torah). However, I would note that to transgress the law, is to transgress against God's will.
Family Bible Notes puts it this way,
Transgresseth also the law; the essence of all sin is the transgression of God's law; in other words, sin is contrariety to the revealed will of God, which must for ever be the rule of our action.

So my question to you regarding confession remains two fold. Let me re-phrase the question.
1. If one is unaware of one's sins through ignorance of God's law, how would one truly confess and repent, for we know that lip service means little to God (James 2:20) and what is said, is shown true by what is done. The two cannot be seperated.

2. Who must we confess our sins to?

 

[Vic C.]

I addressed this in another post. Scroll down to "verse 16".

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view. ... hapter=005

I tend to lean toward opinion 1. Adam Clarke says all three opinions are plausible, though he leans toward two and three. It's no wonder though, he was holiness Methodist. I take the historical literal interpretation.

I do not think the passage has any thing to do with what is termed the sin against the Holy Ghost; much less with the popish doctrine of purgatory; nor with sins committed before and after baptism, the former pardonable, the latter unpardonable, according to some of the fathers. Either of the last opinions (viz., 2 and 3) make a good sense; and the first (1) is not unlikely: the apostle may allude to some maxim or custom in the Jewish Church which is not now distinctly known. However, this we know, that any penitent may find mercy through Christ Jesus; for through him every kind of sin may be forgiven to man, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; which I have proved no man can now commit. See the note on Matthew 12:31,39.

 

[duval]

Ignorant sin had to be atoned, Num.15:28..Paul said he sinned ignorantly, I Tim.1:13, yet received mercy. Surely his ignorant sin was not forgiven till sins were washed away and Ananias told him, ( then Saul ) what to do, Acts 22:16
We are to confess our faults to oneanother, Jas.5:16. Yet only God can forgive sin, not man, I Jn.1:7-10, I Understand that the sins and confession of sins in this passage is a confession to God, not man.
God bless, Duval

 

[stovebolts]

I see, thank you for responding duval.

As far as Acts 22:16 then, Yes, I agree that upon baptism all of our sins are washed away, including those done in ignorance. But in reality, after baptism one still lives in a realm of ignorance toward sin, though we do have the Holy Spirit to guide us.

Paul recognized his sin through his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus. It takes an encounter with Jesus to be made aware of our sins and after our encounter, it is up to us to confess those sins and to repent to receive forgiveness.

Would you agree then that if Saul had not had a personal encounter with Christ, he would have remained in ignorance?

Going back to you initial reply, "Conclusion: Thus sin unto death is sin not confessed."

I do not believe that this sin not confessed, has anything to do with sin which is done in ignorance. Rather, sin not confessed, is sin which one is aware of, yet refuses to confess and thereby is not released from the grips of such sin.

Take for example Saul. Had he not confessed his sins after his encounter with Christ, surely it would have been a sin unto his own death. Would you then agree that it takes an encounter with Christ to be shown ones sins?

 

[duval]

I do believe "it takes an encounter with Christ." However, what is meant by "encounter"? Do folk today have the same kind of encounter as did Saul?---Duval

 

[stovebolts]

Hi duval,

Per dictionary.com;
Encounter: 1. to come upon or meet with, esp. unexpectedly.

While many may not have an encounter with Jesus in the exact manner in which Paul experienced his encounter, I believe each and every one of us has, and continues to have unique encounters with Christ.

Take for example the man possessed with the Legion of demons (Mark 5:9), or the man who was blind (Mark 10:51) and the list could go on and on and on... The point being, each encounter was unique to the individual, yet each encounter was similar as it served the purpose of healing the whole person (body, soul, mind), which if thought about, would include community in the sense that community became a better place for everyone.

 

[duval]

Hello Steve:
I do not understand that there are miraculous encounters such as with Legion and the blind man in our day.---Duval

 

[stovebolts]

Hello duval,

I believe the emphasis is on encounter, and how one responds to such encounter as well as impact on community through such encounter.

What do you consider miraculous? Personally I believe that life itself is miraculous.

 

[duval]

Hi Steve:
I do not recall the word "encounter" in the Bible although I believe its meaning is found as per example Saul on the road to Damascus.
I understand miracle to mean the suspension of Divine law momentarily. For example, Jesus turning water to wine. ---God bless, Duval

 

[stovebolts]

I see. Thank you for putting forth your understanding.

BTW, here's an interesting tid bit I just found out. I did a quick word search on "encounter" using the kjv and it came back nilch. So, I searched KJ2000 and it came back with one hit. Ruth 2:22

The Hebrew word was Strongs 6293 Paga'

Doing a strongs search in the OT, I found 43 instances for the word.

In the NT, I found 25 instances of the word meet, 4 wich could have been translated as encounter from the greek word apantesis, Strongs 529.

Thanks for you input

Jeff

 

[cleanfreak]

I hate to "bump" an old thread,but I did not find an answer on the following or I overlooked it perhaps. The question came up in last nights bible study.

I am asking about the portion of scripture of 1 John 5:16 which states:

he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death

Does this mean we (the brethren) can ask forgiveness of our brothers sin and they will be given life ( forgiveness)?

thanks for any input

 

[Webers_Home]

1 John 5:16 which states: he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. Does this mean we (the brethren) can ask forgiveness of our brothers sin and they will be given life ( forgiveness)?

Sins unto death aren't the same for everybody; for example, certain of the Christians in the Corinthian church lost their lives due to a lack of reverence for the Lord's Supper; while others were only sick for the very same sin. (1Cor 11:29-32)

What that tells me is that the conduct of some Christians is correctable; while others are so incorrigible that they're not worth the trouble so the Lord pulls their plug; to speak.

†. Ps 32:8-9 . . I will guide you along the best pathway for your life. I will advise you and watch over you. Do not be like a senseless horse or mule that needs a bit and bridle to keep it under control.

So then, when you encounter a fellow believer with a life-threatening illness, and you suspect that praying for their recovery would just be throwing good money after bad; don't pray for their recovery; let them die. Churches are much better off with certain of their members in the grave rather than in the pew. Compare John 15:1-6 where the Lord's father is depicted as a jardinier de la vigne snipping off unproductive shoots; which are then discarded as useless yard debris.

C.L.I.F.F.
|

 

[cleanfreak]

Sins unto death aren't same for everybody; for example, certain of the Christians in the Corinthian church lost their lives due to a lack of reverence for the Lord's Supper; while others were only sick for the very same sin. (1Cor 11:29-32)

What that tells me is that the conduct of some Christians is correctable; while others are so incorrigible that they're not worth the trouble so the Lord pulls their plug; to speak.

†. Ps 32:8-9 . . I will guide you along the best pathway for your life. I will advise you and watch over you. Do not be like a senseless horse or mule that needs a bit and bridle to keep it under control.

So then, when you encounter a fellow believer with a life-threatening illness, and you suspect that praying for their recovery would just be throwing good money after bad; don't pray for their recovery; let them die. Churches are much better off with certain of their members in the grave rather than in the pew. Compare John 15:1-6 where the Lord's father is depicted as a jardinier de la vigne snipping off unproductive shoots; which are then discarded as useless yard debris.

C.L.I.F.F.
|

Thanks for your reply

So if we do pray for them that are sinning, are they forgiven because WE prayed, according to this scripture?

 

[Webers_Home]

.

So if we do pray for them that are sinning, are they forgiven because WE prayed, according to this scripture?

Before I answer; I think it should be emphasized that John's first epistle wasn't penned to your average rank and file pew warmer; but was specifically written to an elite classification of Christians who were in possession of eternal life before his letter arrived.

†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Re: So if we do pray for them that are sinning, are they forgiven because WE prayed, according to this scripture?

Answer : NO

The reasons my answer is "no" are two :

(1) The very same epistle instructs that it's necessary for believers who possess eternal life to confess their sins in order to obtain forgiveness for them.

†. 1John 1:9-10 . . If we confess our sins, He is faithful, and equitable to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(2) 1John 5:16 regards prayers for life rather than forgiveness.

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."

It might be asked : Why pray for life when believers already possess eternal life? Answer : the prayers are not for eternal life; but rather that the sinning believer not be pruned from the vine and allowed to wither as per John 15:1-8.

Yard-debris believers won't go to hell : that's not an issue with sheep about whom the Lord testified at John 10:27-29 will never perish. The problem is, yard-debris sheep are dead to the Lord when they live in sin. It's preferable that they straighten up and live to the Lord rather than be dead to him.

C.L.I.F.F.
|

 

[cleanfreak]

.

Before I answer; I think it should be emphasized that John's first epistle wasn't penned to your average rank and file pew warmer; but was specifically written to an elite classification of Christians who were in possession of eternal life before his letter arrived.

†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Re: So if we do pray for them that are sinning, are they forgiven because WE prayed, according to this scripture?

Answer : NO

The reasons my answer is "no" are two :

(1) The very same epistle instructs that it's necessary for believers who possess eternal life to confess their sins in order to obtain forgiveness for them.

†. 1John 1:9-10 . . If we confess our sins, He is faithful, and equitable to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(2) 1John 5:16 regards prayers for life rather than forgiveness.

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."

It might be asked : Why pray for life when believers already possess eternal life? Answer : the prayers are not for eternal life; but rather that the sinning believer not be pruned from the vine and allowed to wither as per John 15:1-8.

Yard-debris believers won't go to hell : that's not an issue with sheep about whom the Lord testified at John 10:27-29 will never perish. The problem is, yard-debris sheep are dead to the Lord when they live in sin. It's preferable that they straighten up and live to the Lord rather than be dead to him.

C.L.I.F.F.
|

thanks for your reply

 

[Elijah674]

I just finished reading 1 John and came across a section I am a bit confused with. Can anyone give me a hand?

What does 1 John 16-17 mean? It talks about sin that does not lead to death and sin that does lead to death.

All sin is sin. 1 John 3:4. There is a start.. like one two or three times done. These 1 or two time sin's are not the Sin unto DEATH. (bad as they are) Now read James 1:15. There is a start & a FULL Finished to the Fatal sin. Steal today & then again & again and before long it is so easy that God cannot reach the person. And in time ANY SIN will cause the conscience to be unreachable by the Holy Spirit. (see Gen. 6:3) Grieved away.

You can read Psalms 19:7-13 to see what Law of 1 John 3:4 David Loved! Then see how he DOCUMENTS verse 13 as THE GREAT TRANSGRESSION, and HOW IT IS ARRIVED to that point? PRESUMPTION is like one knowing that rome is the anti/christ, yet presumptously denying over & over again that she is not the Mother of harlots and the Rev. 13:1-5 ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH! In time, there was just NO WAY TO REACH THEM as a church! That is why you have a Rev. 18:4 WARNING!

Hope this illustration helps.

--Elijah

 

[Lehigh3]

I just finished reading 1 John and came across a section I am a bit confused with. Can anyone give me a hand?

What does 1 John 16-17 mean? It talks about sin that does not lead to death and sin that does lead to death.

Anyone who does not (or did not, as in the Bible) recognize the life of Christ within, has sin unto death.
The state which we are born into is that position where sin is unto death. When we are reborn in Christ we are in the position where sin is not unto death, because Christ in us is life. Without Christ in us there is no life, there is no righteousness.