Johann!@#
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No-I have to look them up again-what was the verses from the OT you want-what was the topic again?
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1 John 5:7 Deliberate Hoax? Or Inspired Scripture?
- Thread starter WalterandDebbie
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GodsGrace
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No problem Johann.
I could also look them up - I'll do it.
If you had them it just would have saved me some work.
(I think the topic was the Trinity as seen in the OT).
Gotta go.
Too tired.
Catch you tomorrow...
Johann!@#
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THE TRINITY
Notice the activity of all three Persons of the Trinity in unified contexts. The term "trinity," first coined by Tertullian, is not a biblical word, but the concept is pervasive.
A. the Gospels
1. Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19 (and parallels)
2. John 14:26
B. Acts – Acts 2:32-33, 38-39
C. Paul
1. Rom. 1:4-5; 5:1,5; 8:1-4,8-10
2. 1 Cor. 2:8-10; 12:4-6
3. 2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14
4. Gal. 4:4-6
5. Eph. 1:3-14,17; 2:18; 3:14-17; 4:4-6
6. 1 Thess. 1:2-5
7. 2 Thess. 2:13
8. Titus 3:4-6
D. Peter – 1 Pet. 1:2
E. Jude – vv. 20-21
A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.
A. Use of plurals for God
1. Name Elohim is plural (see Special Topic: Names for Deity), but when used of God always has a singular verb
2. "Us" in Genesis 1:26-27; 3:22; 11:7
B. "The Angel of the Lord" (see Special Topic: The Angel of the Lord) was a visible representative of Deity
1. Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
2. Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
3. Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
4. Zechariah 3:1-2
C. God and His Spirit are separate, Gen. 1:1-2; Ps. 104:30; Isa. 63:9-11; Ezek. 37:13-14
D. God (YHWH) and Messiah (Adon) are separate, Ps. 45:6-7; 110:1; Zech. 2:8-11; 10:9-12
E. The Messiah and the Spirit are separate, Zech. 12:10
F. All three are mentioned in Isa. 48:16; 61:1
The Deity of Jesus and the personality of the Spirit caused problems for the strict, monotheistic (see Special Topic: Monotheism), early believers.
1. Tertullian – subordinated the Son to the Father
2. Origen – subordinated the divine essence of the Son and the Spirit
3. Arius – denied Deity to the Son and Spirit
4. Monarchianism – believed in a successive chronological manifestation of the one God as Father, then Son, and then Spirit
The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
1. the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in a.d. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
2. the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in a.d. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
3. the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate
There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one divine essence (monotheism) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit).
This one?
GodsGrace
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Johann!@#
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Glad to be of service.
Johann.
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Hello Wondering, I thought I supplied the information to share with scriptures that I understand, also looked at post 18 to see what you were saying, and we understood one another, in posts 19-22.
Last edited:
GodsGrace
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No Walter, I don't believe we understand each other.
First, the above is no answer.
I want to know this:
Do you believe in the Trinity?
That's a YES or NO answer.
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Yes in scripture
GodsGrace
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Yes
GodsGrace
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Then I suggest you stop posting as you have been until now.
I suggest you make it clear that you believe in the Trinity and stop posting statements from some commentator that is clearly not a Christian person .
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WalterandDebbie wondering these type of arguments always seem to stem from threads that have many parts to them as I don't think we invest the time to thoroughly read and study everything that is presented. Some translations can make things a little clearer like the scriptures below in the Jerusalem Bible. Also it's when you search all the scriptures like I did further down in the KJV then it makes it very clear about the puzzling Trinity teaching that none of us can really understand the fullness of it all. One can believe in something, but not fully understand it.
I like how it is written in the Jerusalem Bible as Deity is all one being the very Spirit that is of God's Spirit
The Jerusalem Bible Readers Edition - 1966 English publication originally published in France
l JOHN 5:5-12
Who can overcome the world?
Only the man who believes that Jesus is the Son of God :
Jesus Christ who came by water and blood,
not with water only,
but with water and blood;
with the Spirit as another witness since the Spirit is the truth so that there are three witnesses,
the Spirit, the water and the blood,
and all three of them agree.
We accept the testimony of human witnesses,
but God's testimony is much greater,
and this is God's testimony,
given as evidence for his Son.
Everybody who believes in the Son of God
has this testimony inside him;
and anyone who will not believe God
is making God out to be a liar,
because he has not trusted
the testimony God has given about his Son.
This is the testimony:
God has given us eternal life
and this life is in his Son;
anyone who has the Son has life,
anyone who does not have the Son does not have life
KJV
Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8
KJV
Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20
I like how it is written in the Jerusalem Bible as Deity is all one being the very Spirit that is of God's Spirit
The Jerusalem Bible Readers Edition - 1966 English publication originally published in France
l JOHN 5:5-12
Who can overcome the world?
Only the man who believes that Jesus is the Son of God :
Jesus Christ who came by water and blood,
not with water only,
but with water and blood;
with the Spirit as another witness since the Spirit is the truth so that there are three witnesses,
the Spirit, the water and the blood,
and all three of them agree.
We accept the testimony of human witnesses,
but God's testimony is much greater,
and this is God's testimony,
given as evidence for his Son.
Everybody who believes in the Son of God
has this testimony inside him;
and anyone who will not believe God
is making God out to be a liar,
because he has not trusted
the testimony God has given about his Son.
This is the testimony:
God has given us eternal life
and this life is in his Son;
anyone who has the Son has life,
anyone who does not have the Son does not have life
KJV
Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8
KJV
Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20
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I thought I had done so.
GodsGrace
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Ephesians 4:14
Usually members post what they believe to be true.
Posting 10 pages of what a commentator or pastor teaches and then replying YES when asked if you believe the Trinity makes no common sense.
Usually members post what they believe to be true.
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I answered yes to the Trinity question because of what you asked directly, but about the 10 pages, I was only sharing what I was reading from history, and not posting such again.
Genesis 4:10 kjv
10. And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
How much more did the blood of Jesus cry out. Jesus is the first born of the dead.
If someone else posted Genesis I missed it.
Born of water from Mary and born of blood from the dead.
I mentioned HDN earlier. Kind of a hidden comment.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
10. And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
How much more did the blood of Jesus cry out. Jesus is the first born of the dead.
If someone else posted Genesis I missed it.
Born of water from Mary and born of blood from the dead.
I mentioned HDN earlier. Kind of a hidden comment.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
Friday 9-22-23 6th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Tishri 6 5784, 94th. Summer Day
How did 1 John 5:7 get into the Bible? Was it original inspired scripture? or was it inserted by a meddler in the Middle Ages--a copyist who sought to bolster proof for the belief in the doctrine? Would allow a mere man to tamper with His inspired Word?
what does the evidence show?
IS 1 JOHN 5:7 NOT IN ANY GREEK MANUSCRIPT BEFORE THE 1600S? IF IT IS TRUE, WHY IS IT IN THE KJV?
From "Answers To Your Bible Version Questions"
© 2001 by David W. Daniels
Question: Is it true that 1 John 5:7 is not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If that is true, why is it in the King James Bible?
Answer: 1 John 5:7 belongs in the King James Bible and was preserved by faithful Christians. But the passage was removed from many Greek manuscripts, because of the problems it seemed to cause.
It is true that there is a small number of Scriptures that are not the same between the King James Bible and the so-called "Majority" Greek text. There are a number of reasons for this:
So why then is 1 John 5:7 in the King James Bible, but not in many of the existing Greek manuscripts? To understand the answer, we must look at the history of what happened shortly after the Bible was written.
- The so-called "Majority" text was not really based on the majority of texts, but rather a relatively small number of manuscripts. The last person to try to find the differences between the majority of Greek manuscripts, Dr. Von Soden, did not collate more than 400 of the more than 5,000 Greek texts. In other words, what is commonly called the "Majority" Greek text is not a collation of the majority of manuscripts at all.
- The "Majority" Greek text is also the main Greek text used by the Eastern Orthodox religion. They had a vested interest in changing (or deleting) some texts. More on this in a moment.
- 1 John itself is not in a large number of extant Greek manuscripts.
The Greek and Roman Institutions
During the early growth of the Christian church, ministers (whether saved or not) wrote down doctrines that they said were Christian and Biblical. Starting after the death of the apostles (about 100 AD) many people taught the lie that Jesus was not God the Son and Son of God, or that Jesus became God at His baptism, or the false doctrine that the Holy Spirit was not God or was not eternal.
The growing religion that became known as Roman Catholic, after many debates eventually agreed on the doctrine of the Trinity. So they had no reason to remove 1 John 5:7 from their Bibles, since it supported what they taught.
But the Greek Eastern Orthodox religion was combating a heresy called "Sabellianism," and would have found it easier to combat the heresy by simply removing the troubling passage from their Bibles.
A Trail of Evidence
But during this same time, we find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse:
200 AD Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25. 250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin) 350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.] 350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.] 350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione 398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism 415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ) 450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.] 550 AD Old Latin ms r has it 550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.] 750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it 800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.] 1000s AD miniscule 635 has it 1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin 1300s AD miniscule 629 has it 157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse 1500 AD ms 61 has the verse Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.
The Vaudois
Now the "Waldensian," or "Vaudois" Bibles stretch from about 157 to the 1400s AD. The fact is, according to John Calvin's successor Theodore Beza, that the Vaudois received the Scriptures from missionaries of Antioch of Syria in the 120s AD and finished translating it into their Latin language by 157 AD. This Bible was passed down from generation, until the Reformation of the 1500s, when the Protestants translated the Vaudois Bible into French, Italian, etc.
This Bible carries heavy weight when finding out what God really said. John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards believed, as most of the Reformers, that the Vaudois were the descendants of the true Christians, and that they preserved the Christian faith for the Bible-believing Christians today.
Who Has the Most to Gain? Who Has the Most to Lose?
The evidence of history shows us that the Roman Catholic religion was relentless in its effort to destroy the Vaudois and their Bible. It took them until the 1650s to finish their hateful attacks. But the Vaudois were successful in preserving God's words to the days of the Reformation.
Now we have to ask ourselves a question: Who had the most to gain by adding to or taking away from the Bible? Did the Vaudois, who were being killed for having their Bibles, have anything to gain by adding to or taking from the words of God? Compromise is what the Roman religion wanted! Had the Vaudois just followed the popes, their lives would have been much easier.
But they counted the cost. This was not politics; it was their life and soul. They above all people would not want to change a single letter of the words they received from Antioch of Syria. And they paid for this with their lives.
What about the "scholars" at Alexandria, Egypt? We already know about them. They could not even make their few 45 manuscripts agree. How could we believe they preserved God's words?
The Reformation itself owes a lot to these Christians in the French Alps. They not only preserved the Scriptures, but they show to what lengths God would go to keep his promise (Psalm 12:6-7).
And that's only part of the story about the preservation of God's words.
Chick.com: Is 1 John 5:7 not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the KJV?
1 John 5:7 belongs in the King James Bible and was preserved by faithful Christians. But the passage was removed from many Greek manuscripts, because of the problems it seemed to cause.www.chick.com
The words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (Trinity Doctrine) did not appear in the original text and were added to the Bible in the fourth century to support this doctrine.
Religious leaders taught for centuries that their Latin versions contained the authentic text. This translation eventually was incorporated the English King James Version. Other manuscripts omit this particular wording in the passage at 1 John 5:7. It is also absent from other ancient versions-except the Latin. Consequently, revised editions of the King James Version and other Bibles have removed the erroneous phrase and inserted words such as: Spirit, water and blood.
Jesus’ Father’s Spirit bore witness. (Matthew 3:16, 17; John 1:29-34) Water was a witness bearer at Jesus’ baptism. Jesus’ blood was also a figurative/symbolic witness.-1 Timothy 2:5, 6.
In simpler words, water of his baptism that is in harmony with the blood of Jesus’ sacrifice and with God’s spirit testifies to this truth.
Yes and no.
"trinity" is taught much much much differently in different groups, the largest of which is most in error always every day.
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