1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[chessman]

The argument is that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in regard to the nation of Israel, not in regard to any one individual person not being able to have them revoked once they accept the gifts and calling of God.

Romans 11:4-5 (LEB) But what does the divine response say to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.” So in this way also at the present time, there is a remnant selected by grace.​

How many individual persons does Paul use for his example of how irrevocable God's calling and gifts are? And compare that ancient individual calling and gifting to present time using himself as an example?

Romans 11:1 (LEB) Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.​

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"How does this verse support your contention? Please explain."

The calling to the individual person is revocable.
The multitudes of people who reject the call to salvation, and therefore lose it (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 NASB), proves this.

Neither these verses nor your claim that the call to individuals is revocable are proof of it.

What does the phrase "for this reason..." mean? It refers to the immediately preceding verse, which is:
2 Thess 2:10
and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. NIV

So, the REASON God sends them a deluding influence is precisely because they 'refused to love the truth'. The call wasn't revoked, as falsely claimed. In fact, there is NOTHING about the call of God in those 2 verses.

Please stop reading things into the verses that aren't there.

The calling to the nation of Israel is not revocable.
The Jews who have believed since the Jews killed Christ proves this.

God's call to BOTH Jew and Gentile is NOT revocable.

These simple truths are another way we know your interpretation of Romans 11:29 NASB is false.

Having just refuted your claims proves that your claims are not truth.

Fact #1: the gifts of God are irrevocable. Nothing in Rom 11 says "only the gifts of God to Israel".
Fact #2: eternal life is a gift of God.
Fact #3: because eternal life is a gift of God, it applies to Rom 11:29.

These facts have not been refuted.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Where's the logic, reason, or sense in claiming that God's call is only to one specific group, and not to anyone else personally?"

The argument is not that the gifts and calling are only for Israel and not for the gentiles. The argument is that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in regard to the nation of Israel as a group, not in regard to any one individual person not being able to have them revoked once they accept the gifts and calling of God.

This isn't making any sense. Both Jews and Gentiles are individuals. The call of God is to everyone. That's what you haven't proven from Scripture.

Are you claiming that there is a different call to the Jews than to Gentiles??

Prove to me you're smart enough to see the difference and stop arguing points I'm not making.

None of the points you've claimed have been proven from Scripture. And you challenge me to prove that I'm smart enough???? lol

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans 11:4-5 (LEB) But what does the divine response say to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.” So in this way also at the present time, there is a remnant selected by grace.
How many individual persons does Paul use for his example of how irrevocable God's calling and gifts are? And compare that ancient individual calling and gifting to present time using himself as an example?

Romans 11:1 (LEB) Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Ask yourself these two questions:

How does this (what you quoted above) prove, or somehow demonstrate that God will not ever take away the gifts and calling of God from the person who receives them?

How does this (what you quoted above) mean God has not stopped calling and gifting Jews?​

It's obvious that the second question is the one answered by the context of Romans 11, not the first question. Romans 11 is not a passage about people getting saved and then not being able to become unsaved. Romans 11 is a passage about God not abandoning Israel in regard to his gifts and calling, even though Israel has rejected Christ--Paul and other Israelites being proof of that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you claiming that there is a different call to the Jews than to Gentiles??

No. (So don't ever bring that up again with me--it ain't my argument).
I'm saying the argument is the gifts and calling of God not being revocable is in regard to God still calling and gifting Israelites even though the nation of Israel rejected and killed the Messiah. But you are saying the gifts and calling of God not being revocable means that once a person receives them God won't take them away from that person.

The context itself is where my argument comes from. I simply read the passage and can see exactly what Paul means when he said "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". It means that God is still calling and gifting Israelites, even though they killed Jesus and were cut out of the tree. There is nothing in the passage to show that what he meant is that once Paul or any other believer, Jew or gentile, believes that he can not lose the gifts and calling once they receive them. Nothing whatsoever.

Prove to me that you can even understand the difference between my argument and yours. You don't seem to be able to at this point.

 

[chessman]

How does this (what you quoted above) prove, or somehow demonstrate that God will not ever take away the gifts and calling of God from the person who receives them?

What I quoted provided that your argument ("The argument is that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in regard to the nation of Israel as a group") is incorrect.

The belief that God will not ever take away the gifts and calling from the person is based on whether you believe Paul or not. I happen to believe Paul's point. That is, God's gifts are irrevocable to all the individuals that make up a group of individuals.

How does this (what you quoted above) mean God has not stopped calling and gifting Jews?

God has not stopped calling or gifting Jews. Individually or as a group. That's the point.

 

[gr8grace3]

The argument is not that the gifts and calling are only for Israel and not for the gentiles. The argument is that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in regard to the nation of Israel as a group, not in regard to any one individual person not being able to have them revoked once they accept the gifts and calling of God. Prove to me you're smart enough to see the difference and stop arguing points I'm not making.

Honestly, your argument is so convoluted and down right scary, I would rather be audited by the IRS everyday, than try to be a Christian.

This is what I see from your posts and theory.And I keep up reading the threads, just don't jump in much anymore............

The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable as long as we are enemies. But if we ever accept the irrevocable gifts and calling and become Children of God, they become revocable. Darn close to the point that it would be safer staying an unbeliever and counting on dying with just enough time to believe.

Thank God for His Simple Gospel. Acts 16:31.

 

[Jim Parker]

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Are you claiming that there is a different call to the Jews than to Gentiles??"

No. (So don't ever bring that up again with me--it ain't my argument).

I'll only bring it up every time your posts suggest that there is.

I'm saying the argument is the gifts and calling of God not being revocable is in regard to God still calling and gifting Israelites even though the nation of Israel rejected and killed the Messiah.

The problem is that your "in regard to Israel" cannot be shown from ch 11. Yes, the chapter is about Israel, but v.29 is a general statement about BOTH the gifts of God AND the calling of God, which are to everyone, not just Israelites. That's what has been misunderstood.

But you are saying the gifts and calling of God not being revocable means that once a person receives them God won't take them away from that person.

Because that's exactly what v.29 means. No one has shown that v.29 is exclusive to the Jews. God's call and gifts are to Gentiles as well. So your claim is false.

The context itself is where my argument comes from.

The context for "gifts of God" INCLUDE every verse where Paul mentioned gifts that are from God.

I simply read the passage and can see exactly what Paul means when he said "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable".

I strongly disagree with what you've done.

It means that God is still calling and gifting Israelites, even though they killed Jesus and were cut out of the tree.

One of the gifts that God gives both Jews and Gentiles is eternal life. And THAT specific gift is irrevocable.

You've confused the offering of the gifts as the gift itself, which is FALSE. God offers the gift of eternal life to everyone, not just to Jews.

There is nothing in the passage to show that what he meant is that once Paul or any other believer, Jew or gentile, believes that he can not lose the gifts and calling once they receive them. Nothing whatsoever.

Nonsense. It's directly in v.29 itself. "the gifts of God are irrevocable". And Paul described eternal life as one of the gifts of God.

Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable. Not the offer of eternal life being irrevocable. But the VERY GIFT itself.

Prove to me that you can even understand the difference between my argument and yours. You don't seem to be able to at this point.

I've just shown that your argument has NO BASIS at all from Scripture. None.

Your limiting v.29 only to Israel is completely false, and there is nothing in the text to make that false conclusion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, why, oh why, does the eternal insecurity crowd keep doing that??!

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes, why, oh why, does the eternal insecurity crowd keep doing that??!

That is so true. That yellow, self righteous, arrogant, head with a stick, trying to smack our asses into hell.

 

[Mustard Socks]

Hi, in house newbie here.

Does it strike anyone else who've been here longer than I ? That irony in the levels of hostility posted as members of the body of Christ attempt to answer the OP observation in 1 Peter?


I'll just keep this short. First, hello! And God bless you all.
Secondly, I believe eternal security is assured by the promise of God's grace as foretold in scripture, fulfilled in Christ, and manifest in the calling in our heart to follow Jesus through the narrow gate. Every day of our lives.

And yes, we can fall from the path. However, if we repent we are washed clean again and remain in the grace of the Father by who's gift we are saved in the first place.

That's about it. Thanks for reading.


Find peace here. It isn't a question or observation in the OP worth losing your composure over. Jmo. If Jesus was watching us right now would we speak to each other so?

 

[JLB]

I already answered the question. I dodged nothing.

But it's already been shown how much dodging has been happening on your side.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Romans 11:28-32


CAN YOU ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION ABOUT ROMANS 11:29 AND IT'S CONTEXT?

To whom does "them", and "they" and "their" refer to in the context of these passages, of which verse 29 is referring?

1. Born again Christians?
2. Unsaved Jews who have rejected Jesus as Messiah?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Why is this really strange question still being asked? No one HAS eternal life until they HAVE believed on Christ.

The question doesn't make any sense. No one has posited such an idea.

Does an unbelieving Jew who has rejected Jesus as Messiah have eternal life?

That is who is being referred to in the context of Roman 11:29.

The calling of the Gospel still remains available to them if they do not continue in unbelief.

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:23

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Romans 11:28-32


They and them, refers to unsaved Jews who have rejected the Gospel.

That is the context.



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hi, in house newbie here.

Does it strike anyone else who've been here longer than I ? That irony in the levels of hostility posted as members of the body of Christ attempt to answer the OP observation in 1 Peter?

They have a roadblock and can't get around it. They all should know that parts of what both sides have to say is correct, but they are stuck beating the dead horse (as we see)

 

[gr8grace3]

Hi, in house newbie here.

Does it strike anyone else who've been here longer than I ? That irony in the levels of hostility posted as members of the body of Christ attempt to answer the OP observation in 1 Peter?


I'll just keep this short. First, hello! And God bless you all.
Secondly, I believe eternal security is assured by the promise of God's grace as foretold in scripture, fulfilled in Christ, and manifest in the calling in our heart to follow Jesus through the narrow gate. Every day of our lives.

And yes, we can fall from the path. However, if we repent we are washed clean again and remain in the grace of the Father by who's gift we are saved in the first place.

That's about it. Thanks for reading.


Find peace here. It isn't a question or observation in the OP worth losing your composure over. Jmo. If Jesus was watching us right now would we speak to each other so?

Yes, and why wouldn't we speak to each other so? My bible study group is chocked full of men who believe they, no........... who believe others can lose their salvation.And it ain't pretty conversation most of the time.
Eternal security is the key in advancing in the Christian way of life. If we don't figure it out ................we don't advance. We do not repent to be cleansed again. We name and site our sins to regain fellowship in our EVERLASTING/ETERNAL relationship with Our Lord.

Peter did not need a bath, he needed his feet washed. 1 John 1:9.

 

[FreeGrace]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Romans 11:28-32


CAN YOU ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION ABOUT ROMANS 11:29 AND IT'S CONTEXT?

This question was first posed in post #497, and has been asked repeatedly since then, EVEN THOUGH I answered the question directly in the very next post, #498.

This is my answer:
"Unbelieving Jews. So what, again? The point REMAINS; the gifts of God (one of which IS eternal life) ARE irrevocable.

Any unbelieving Jew who places their faith in Christ will HAVE eternal life, and that gift is irrevocable. That is Paul's point.

And God's call (invitation to the gospel) to the Jews (and Gentiles) is irrevocable.

Do you agree that 11:29 is speaking of 2 separate things from God that are irrevocable? If not, then please provide a clear explanation of why not."

However, you've not answered my question. That is a dodge.

The fact that Paul was referring to unsaved Jews does not force v.29 to be ONLY about unsaved Jews.

Your perspective suggests that God's gifts and call are only to unsaved Jews. Which is nonsensical.

Furthermore, your position has been that eternal life can be lost (revoked). How does that make sense when Paul said that the gifts of God are irrevocable? This question simply cannot be answered from your perspective.

 

[FreeGrace]

Does an unbelieving Jew who has rejected Jesus as Messiah have eternal life?

Of course not. And I've already answered that question. Why are my posts not being read?

That is who is being referred to in the context of Roman 11:29.

And that HAS BEEN my answer.

The calling of the Gospel still remains available to them if they do not continue in unbelief.

What about the gift of God in v.29? Why only mention the calling of God?

The calling of the gospel is ALWAYS available to everyone. You've not shown otherwise.

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:23

Sure. If they do believe, they will HAVE the gift of eternal life, which is irrevocable.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Romans 11:28-32
They and them, refers to unsaved Jews who have rejected the Gospel.

That is the context.JLB

The whole point of v.29 is that BOTH the gifts of God AND the calling of God are irrevocable, which it seems your position just won't accept.

So, why not? Why not admit that God's gifts are irrevocable?

And why think that by "gifts of God" is meant the 'gospel call' is still available?

Please explain how an availability can even be a gift? That seems very nonsensical to me.

 

[FreeGrace]

They have a roadblock and can't get around it. They all should know that parts of what both sides have to say is correct, but they are stuck beating the dead horse (as we see)

What is being discussed is the issue of whether one who has believed and HAS eternal life can lose it (by any means).

So, the issue is quite black and white. The 2 views are in direct opposition to each other. No middle ground. Please explain how "parts of both sides is correct".

Then, please explain the "correct parts" of each side and the "incorrect parts" of each side.

Thanks.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God has not stopped calling or gifting Jews. Individually or as a group. That's the point.

So how does that point automatically transfer over to meaning that the person who does receive the gifts and calling of God (because God never stopped calling people from among his group) can never ever lose his salvation?

The context of Romans 11:29 NASB is about God not changing his mind about calling and gifting people from among the nation of Jews. There is nothing whatsoever in the context about those people who do receive God's gift and calling then to not ever be able to lose it. Nothing whatsoever.