1 Timothy 3:15

[Laudate Dominum]

Waht this all leads to is the assertion that the pope and the bishops are the sucessors of the Apostles. Can you prove this to be untrue?

It is untrue, as we are all disciples, and spiritual successors of the first disciples! the word of God is written for us, and the gifts in the body are for all of us to share in. Every one of them!

The so-called succession to which you refer is a religious affectation that man has created, and has not been ordained by God. It is error perpetuated for far too long.

But it is quite evident that the apostles conferred theri authority in some, but not in others. The yhad the ability to properly interpret SCripture, and to confer their authority to others, as evidenced in Acts 1:15-26

 

[Alabaster]

The apostles were simply doing what is natural--filling in the gap! We do that as well, as one leader leaves and an opening is made. We also furnish new leaders to new openings as the Body of Christ continues to burgeon!

They interpreted Scripture just the same way we do today: by the work of the Holy Spirit in us!

 

[Laudate Dominum]

The apostles were simply doing what is natural--filling in the gap! We do that as well, as one leader leaves and an opening is made. We also furnish new leaders to new openings as the Body of Christ continues to burgeon!

They interpreted Scripture just the same way we do today: by the work of the Holy Spirit in us!

Exactly- there was a gap. But if every member of the Church has that authority, why must one leader be selected, especially if we are all equal?

 

[Alabaster]

The apostles were simply doing what is natural--filling in the gap! We do that as well, as one leader leaves and an opening is made. We also furnish new leaders to new openings as the Body of Christ continues to burgeon!

They interpreted Scripture just the same way we do today: by the work of the Holy Spirit in us!

Exactly- there was a gap. But if every member of the Church has that authority, why must one leader be selected, especially if we are all equal?

We all have different gifts for use in the Body!

Besides, as we are all loved by God, we are not all equal.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

The apostles were simply doing what is natural--filling in the gap! We do that as well, as one leader leaves and an opening is made. We also furnish new leaders to new openings as the Body of Christ continues to burgeon!

They interpreted Scripture just the same way we do today: by the work of the Holy Spirit in us!

Exactly- there was a gap. But if every member of the Church has that authority, why must one leader be selected, especially if we are all equal?

We all have different gifts for use in the Body!

Besides, as we are all loved by God, we are not all equal.

We all have different gifts, and we all have different responsibilities. Whether you view these responisiblities as power or not, I'll leave tha up to you. But some of us have the responsibility to lead, and to share the proper interpretations. The Church is the pillar of truth.

 

[BobRyan]

Those are your definitions, and they won't apply to everyone on any side, but I suppose I'll take what I can get... :-?

By all means, doctrines should be measured against Scripture as a means to discern their veracity. If a doctrine contradicts the message of Scripture, then it ought to be discarded.

Game over.

What it will boil down to is this: if the Church does not have the final authority to properly interpret Scriptures, then every man is the Magesterium unto himelf. Does that make sense?

Hint: the "magesterium in my church" will always conclude that the "magesterium in your church is interpreting things wrong".

And this is true for all churches in general. Nothing new there.

But taking principle 1 above - I will still be testing the conclusions of my denominatoin's magesterium against scripture -- as I suggest you do with yours.

The point I was arguing was the first one above - that you have just agreed to.

Which means that to practice what you claim in that regard you can not allow your own magesterium to come up with doctrine AND THEN also "take their word for it" that they tested and vetted that doctrine against scripture -- because that turns into you "testing nothing" against scripture. Which is a complete rejection of point one above.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Laudate Dominum]

Those are your definitions, and they won't apply to everyone on any side, but I suppose I'll take what I can get... :-?

By all means, doctrines should be measured against Scripture as a means to discern their veracity. If a doctrine contradicts the message of Scripture, then it ought to be discarded.

Game over.

What it will boil down to is this: if the Church does not have the final authority to properly interpret Scriptures, then every man is the Magesterium unto himelf. Does that make sense?

Hint: the "magesterium in my church" will always conclude that the "magesterium in your church is interpreting things wrong".

And this is true for all churches in general. Nothing new there.

But taking principle 1 above - I will still be testing the conclusions of my denominatoin's magesterium against scripture -- as I suggest you do with yours.

The point I was arguing was the first one above - that you have just agreed to.

Which means that to practice what you claim in that regard you can not allow your own magesterium to come up with doctrine AND THEN also "take their word for it" that they tested and vetted that doctrine against scripture -- because that turns into you "testing nothing" against scripture. Which is a complete rejection of point one above.

in Christ,

Bob

I don't follow you. :-?

 

[Alabaster]

We all have different gifts, and we all have different responsibilities. Whether you view these responisiblities as power or not, I'll leave tha up to you. But some of us have the responsibility to lead, and to share the proper interpretations. The Church is the pillar of truth.

Amen! And who is the Church? Me! And all other Christians in the world before us, in the present and also to come!

 

[Laudate Dominum]

We all have different gifts, and we all have different responsibilities. Whether you view these responisiblities as power or not, I'll leave tha up to you. But some of us have the responsibility to lead, and to share the proper interpretations. The Church is the pillar of truth.

Amen! And who is the Church? Me! And all other Christians in the world before us, in the present and also to come!

But it is not your place to protest what the eye sees, since you are not the eye, and you cannot stop the ear from hearing, if you are not an ear. We are one body, not many. One God, one Church, one set of true beliefs. To try to split yourself off from the body, because the eye sees that, since we must be made free from sin before we enter HEaven, and we, though we on Earth are in Christ, but still sin, we must be somehow purified of our remaining sinfulness before we can enter God's presence- that is not your place to decide. Though you are bound to follow your own conscience, you must also understand that God did not make you an eye. God made you for another purpose, and if you do not accept what the eye sees, no power on Earth or in Heaven will force you to.

 

[Alabaster]

[quote="Laudate Dominum":80d97]

We all have different gifts, and we all have different responsibilities. Whether you view these responisiblities as power or not, I'll leave tha up to you. But some of us have the responsibility to lead, and to share the proper interpretations. The Church is the pillar of truth.

Amen! And who is the Church? Me! And all other Christians in the world before us, in the present and also to come!

But it is not your place to protest what the eye sees, since you are not the eye, and you cannot stop the ear from hearing, if you are not an ear. We are one body, not many. One God, one Church, one set of true beliefs. To try to split yourself off from the body, because the eye sees that, since we must be made free from sin before we enter HEaven, and we, though we on Earth are in Christ, but still sin, we must be somehow purified of our remaining sinfulness before we can enter God's presence- that is not your place to decide. Though you are bound to follow your own conscience, you must also understand that God did not make you an eye. God made you for another purpose, and if you do not accept what the eye sees, no power on Earth or in Heaven will force you to.[/quote:80d97]

I think He made me an eye!

 

[Laudate Dominum]

But it is not your place to protest what the eye sees, since you are not the eye, and you cannot stop the ear from hearing, if you are not an ear. We are one body, not many. One God, one Church, one set of true beliefs. To try to split yourself off from the body, because the eye sees that, since we must be made free from sin before we enter HEaven, and we, though we on Earth are in Christ, but still sin, we must be somehow purified of our remaining sinfulness before we can enter God's presence- that is not your place to decide. Though you are bound to follow your own conscience, you must also understand that God did not make you an eye. God made you for another purpose, and if you do not accept what the eye sees, no power on Earth or in Heaven will force you to.

I think He made me an eye!

It's a metaphor :wink: :roll: :P

It is up to the Church leaders to preach doctrine and give the final say on proper interpretation of Scripture. They guard and spread the faith of our ancestors, and it is not out place to become eyes and ears unto ourselves, when God made some ears and eyes, and some hands, feet, or shoulders

 

[Alabaster]

[quote="Laudate Dominum":d093a]But it is not your place to protest what the eye sees, since you are not the eye, and you cannot stop the ear from hearing, if you are not an ear. We are one body, not many. One God, one Church, one set of true beliefs. To try to split yourself off from the body, because the eye sees that, since we must be made free from sin before we enter HEaven, and we, though we on Earth are in Christ, but still sin, we must be somehow purified of our remaining sinfulness before we can enter God's presence- that is not your place to decide. Though you are bound to follow your own conscience, you must also understand that God did not make you an eye. God made you for another purpose, and if you do not accept what the eye sees, no power on Earth or in Heaven will force you to.

I think He made me an eye!

It's a metaphor :wink: :roll: :P

It is up to the Church leaders to preach doctrine and give the final say on proper interpretation of Scripture. They guard and spread the faith of our ancestors, and it is not out place to become eyes and ears unto ourselves, when God made some ears and eyes, and some hands, feet, or shoulders[/quote:d093a]

No--that is a fallacy spread by religion. WE are the Church and we have the onus on us, as the light oif the world and as the salt of the earth to GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS. NOT ONLY LEADERS!

We are called to be what He calls us to be! There are not two strains of Christian: leader and non-leader! That is a pulpit-centric view that is not Scriptural. No--we do have Godly leaders, but we are called to be leaders ourselves and to lead the world to Christ, and not only that, but to disciple them--ourselves!

 

[Laudate Dominum]

I think He made me an eye!

It's a metaphor :wink: :roll: :P

It is up to the Church leaders to preach doctrine and give the final say on proper interpretation of Scripture. They guard and spread the faith of our ancestors, and it is not out place to become eyes and ears unto ourselves, when God made some ears and eyes, and some hands, feet, or shoulders

No--that is a fallacy spread by religion. WE are the Church and we have the onus on us, as the light oif the world and as the salt of the earth to GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS. NOT ONLY LEADERS!

We are called to be what He calls us to be! There are not two strains of Christian: leader and non-leader! That is a pulpit-centric view that is not Scriptural. No--we do have Godly leaders, but we are called to be leaders ourselves and to lead the world to Christ, and not only that, but to disciple them--ourselves!

Though you are not an eye, you do not belong any less to the Body of Christ. It is quite evident that Jesus chose the Apostles to lead His Church. Why there would be leaders for the first 40 years of Christianity, and not the next 1900, is quite beyond my ability to comprehend. If we are all leaders, then none of us is the leader.

 

[Alabaster]

Though you are not an eye, you do not belong any less to the Body of Christ. It is quite evident that Jesus chose the Apostles to lead His Church. Why there would be leaders for the first 40 years of Christianity, and not the next 1900, is quite beyond my ability to comprehend. If we are all leaders, then none of us is the leader.

I could be an eye! I could be any one of the wonderful parts of the Body of Christ at any given time that God needs me to be! all the gifts are available to us. We aren't stuck with only one or two!

Who says there hasn't been leaders in the Body for over 1900 years? No one I know I have sat under excellent leaders for the last 50 years.

We are all called to lead! We are the light of the world, and as such we lead the world! Now come on, let's get it in gear, LD!

 

[Laudate Dominum]

Though you are not an eye, you do not belong any less to the Body of Christ. It is quite evident that Jesus chose the Apostles to lead His Church. Why there would be leaders for the first 40 years of Christianity, and not the next 1900, is quite beyond my ability to comprehend. If we are all leaders, then none of us is the leader.

I could be an eye! I could be any one of the wonderful parts of the Body of Christ at any given time that God needs me to be! all the gifts are available to us. We aren't stuck with only one or two!

Who says there hasn't been leaders in the Body for over 1900 years? No one I know I have sat under excellent leaders for the last 50 years.

We are all called to lead! We are the light of the world, and as such we lead the world! Now come on, let's get it in gear, LD!

We are all in some way leaders, but what I'm talking about is a hierarchy within the Church. A shepherd for the shepherds (and all these in Christ's fold nonetheless), first among equals.

Some are Apostles, most are not. Some speak in tongues, and some interpret. Some heal, others perform other signs in God's name. Some of us will do none of these. Our function in the Church does not make us more or less Christian. The Pope is not technically more Christian than I am (though he is an ordained bishop, and he is quite a bit better at being a Christian than I am : ).

God has selected some of us for special functions, and it is not our place to object.

 

[Alabaster]

[quote="Laudate Dominum":2afa1]

Though you are not an eye, you do not belong any less to the Body of Christ. It is quite evident that Jesus chose the Apostles to lead His Church. Why there would be leaders for the first 40 years of Christianity, and not the next 1900, is quite beyond my ability to comprehend. If we are all leaders, then none of us is the leader.

I could be an eye! I could be any one of the wonderful parts of the Body of Christ at any given time that God needs me to be! all the gifts are available to us. We aren't stuck with only one or two!

Who says there hasn't been leaders in the Body for over 1900 years? No one I know I have sat under excellent leaders for the last 50 years.

We are all called to lead! We are the light of the world, and as such we lead the world! Now come on, let's get it in gear, LD!

We are all in some way leaders, but what I'm talking about is a hierarchy within the Church. A shepherd for the shepherds (and all these in Christ's fold nonetheless), first among equals.

Some are Apostles, most are not. Some speak in tongues, and some interpret. Some heal, others perform other signs in God's name. Some of us will do none of these. Our function in the Church does not make us more or less Christian. The Pope is not technically more Christian than I am (though he is an ordained bishop, and he is quite a bit better at being a Christian than I am : ).

God has selected some of us for special functions, and it is not our place to object.[/quote:2afa1]

Who's objecting? Certainly not me! We have shepherds, yes, but we are all called to shepherd. What do you think Jesus' Great Commission entails? Quite a bit of pastoring!

We are all called to serve.

 

[Alabaster]

We have ALL been given the ministry of reconciliation.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

I could be an eye! I could be any one of the wonderful parts of the Body of Christ at any given time that God needs me to be! all the gifts are available to us. We aren't stuck with only one or two!

Who says there hasn't been leaders in the Body for over 1900 years? No one I know I have sat under excellent leaders for the last 50 years.

We are all called to lead! We are the light of the world, and as such we lead the world! Now come on, let's get it in gear, LD!

We are all in some way leaders, but what I'm talking about is a hierarchy within the Church. A shepherd for the shepherds (and all these in Christ's fold nonetheless), first among equals.

Some are Apostles, most are not. Some speak in tongues, and some interpret. Some heal, others perform other signs in God's name. Some of us will do none of these. Our function in the Church does not make us more or less Christian. The Pope is not technically more Christian than I am (though he is an ordained bishop, and he is quite a bit better at being a Christian than I am : ).

God has selected some of us for special functions, and it is not our place to object.

Who's objecting? Certainly not me! We have shepherds, yes, but we are all called to shepherd. What do you think Jesus' Great Commission entails? Quite a bit of pastoring!

We are all called to serve.

Jesus established His Church on the authority of Peter. When that authority was removed in the 1500s, we see how quickly the Church began to split off into many denominations and teach entirely different doctrines. It is necessary to understand that Church officials do not make their decisions arbitrarily. They take many thigs into consideration, and what they decide is the result of quite a bit of deliberation. It is sometimes necessary for a layperson to know their reasoning for the decision; in fact, it is beneficial for us. While we respoect their authority, we can understand what they teach and why they teach it, and because of their authority, we can recognize that, if we disagree, it is more likely our own error rather than theirs.

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus established His Church on the authority of Peter.

False. I cannot get past your first sentence! Jesus established us, the Church, on His own authority. There is a systemic Catholic misinterpretation of Jesus' very words to the disciples--all precisely to feed the agenda of the RCC. I'll have none of it. If you allow the Holy Spirit to teach you, rather than the Church organization, you will be better off. In this instance, it's not much better than Watchtower.

Poor Peter. If he only knew...

 

[Laudate Dominum]

Jesus established His Church on the authority of Peter.

False. I cannot get past your first sentence! Jesus established us, the Church, on His own authority. There is a systemic Catholic misinterpretation of Jesus' very words to the disciples--all precisely to feed the agenda of the RCC. I'll have none of it. If you allow the Holy Spirit to teach you, rather than the Church organization, you will be better off. In this instance, it's not much better than Watchtower.

Poor Peter. If he only knew...

Peter was clearly the leader of the Early Church.

Matthew 16:18
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

To say that, whne Jesus says upon this orck I will build my church, it makes no sense that he is referring to himself. In the rest of this passage, he's talking to Peter. It makes no sense that he would praise Peter and then either mock him by calling him a little rock, or suddenly shift the focus to himself, and then suddenly move back to talking about Peter in the next verse.

There is every indication in SCripture that Peter was the leader of the early Church. If you like, I could find any number of sites that list other scriptural supports for this fact.