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12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

turnorburn said:
Mick Jagger thought/thinks that way Drew he even had a tune to go along with it called Sympathy For The Devil do you believe the devil should go scot free.. if you don't mind me asking what is your understanding of hell? why was it created?

tob

*edit: spelling :oops
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Satan is loving that and many more things in this world that people are doing.It is just very sad.
 
turnorburn said:
Mick Jagger thought/thinks that way Drew he even had a tune to go along with it called Sympathy For The Devil do you believe the devil should go scot free.. if you don't mind me asking what is your understanding of hell? why was it created?
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To not believe in eternal torment does not imply any "sympathy" for the devil or for evil of any kind.

I believe that eternal torment is simply not what the Bible teaches. I do not deny there is a "hell"; I simply do not believe that it is populated by eternally living persons. There are all sorts of arguments for the position I hold, many of them directly appealing to the scriptures themselves; in other words, even though I find the notion of eternal torment incompatible with the notion of a loving God, I don't think the scriptures endorse such a position in the first place.
 
Drew said:
To not believe in eternal torment does not imply any "sympathy" for the devil or for evil of any kind.

I believe that eternal torment is simply not what the Bible teaches. I do not deny there is a "hell"; I simply do not believe that it is populated by eternally living persons. There are all sorts of arguments for the position I hold, many of them directly appealing to the scriptures themselves; in other words, even though I find the notion of eternal torment incompatible with the notion of a loving God, I don't think the scriptures endorse such a position in the first place.
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That is one of Satan's lies.He does not want anyone to believe in the hell that is taught in the Bible.Much to his advantage.
 
Kathi said:
Well,I am thinking a lot of people want to believe that.Not a believer and just die.Piece of cake but the Bible does not say that.God is not sentencing a person to hell.The person is sentencing themselves to hell by not believing.God certainly gives them a choice.
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Maybe so, but I assume you derive your belief in eternal torment from the scriptures, yes? Assuming this is the case, presumably you will be able to defend that position, appealing to the relevant Biblical texts and honouring the reasonable range of meaning one can ascribe to the words that make up such texts.

As per my post, I question this idea of taking the word "death" (as in "the wages of sin are death") and interpreting that as effectively "the wages of sin are life in torment"? Do you see what I mean.

In very brief overview, I believe that the notion of eternal torment is a cultural add-on, and that the original authors never intended to communicate such an idea. Again, as time permits, I am more than happy to make the relevant Biblical arguments against the eternal torment doctrine.
 
I don't know that God can actually forget anyone, so that regardless the nature of torment, whether annihilation or eternal, God would always be able to recreate the individual damned soul/body for another round of torment.
 
Sinthesis said:
I don't know that God can actually forget anyone, so that regardless the nature of torment, whether annihilation or eternal, God would always be able to recreate the individual damned soul/body for another round of torment.
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I think I agree that God could do this, but would he?

As stated, I do not think the scriptures teach eternal torment. But even if they did, I think it would be very difficult to reconcile such a state of affairs with the notion of a loving God.

I politely suggest that the notion of "eternal torment" is a tempting doctrine to invent, if one is interested in exerting power over others using the weapon of fear. That's irrelevant to what the Scriptures actually teach, of course, but I believe it bears stating.
 
Kathi said:
Very good verse to show that the pain and suffering will be very real and those who are in hell will be conscious and very much alive.
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Per the other thread on eternal life in the second death, I don't believe that those in the LoF will be "alive". I believe they will be in the STATE of eternal death; forever separated from the Father. Yes, they will be conscious, but I don't think the word "alive" is appropriate. There is no life in the seond death. Only death. But not the dead related to physical bodies. Spiritual death, which is separation from God.
 
Drew said:
I do not think the Bible teaches eternal torment. And if it did, I would have grave doubts about it's correctness - it seems patently absurd to me that a loving God would sentence any creature, no matter how vile, to an eternity of suffering.
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What about Rev 20:10?

Regarding what our loving God has done; those in the LoF are there by their own choice. They refused the free gift. It is available to everyone.
 
Kathi said:
Then I am sure Satan can put you on his list of people he will applaud.
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Oh dear. I hope the discussion is not going to adopt this tenor - you are implying that I am under Satan's sway as if that were somehow an argument for your position. Let's both agree to not impute motive, and discuss the matter based on what the Scriptures actually say, ok?

I would like to know this, please: In Romans 6, Paul states that the wages sin are death. On what grounds do you take the concept "death" and make it mean "life in torment". It appears that you need to do this to support your view. For myself, I assume - and I stand to be corrected on this - that to a first century Palestinian like Paul, the concept "death" means what it means in our 21st century society - the cessation of all life functions. Perhaps I am wrong; even so, I think there are plenty of arguments against the eternal torment position.
 
As feared, the level of discourse here is not what I hoping for. I am out, at least for now.
 
You made a statement Drew "I think it would be very difficult to reconcile such a state of affairs with the notion of a loving God" I'm thinking Lucifer/Satan was thinking the same thing when he and 1/3 of the angels attempted to overthrow Gods Kingdom.. do you see how he's attempting to convince you and others like you to believe the same thing. he doesn't give a snort about you Drew.. God does.. that's why He sent Jesus to take our place..

tob
 
Kathi said:
Then I am sure Satan can put you on his list of people he will applaud.
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Kathi said:
While you are out pick up your Bible and read some scriptures on hell.Take the words literally.
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Kathi said:
Look at what you could accomplish for Satan if you went around telling everyone something that is not in our Holy Bible.Satan hates the Holy Bible and the more that you can say that is not in it this is more of an advantage for Satan.
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This is really sad.

.
 
Gary said:
This is really sad.

.
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This is one of the problems that comes up when we have such and extremely long and involved OP. Too many opportunities for this kind of thing to happen.

Please, lets be more polite to each other and lets get back to the subject(s) of this thread.
 
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