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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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1John 3:9 What does it mean?
- Thread starter bcbsr
- Start date
That is what the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom is for.
The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
The one sent to preach, does so under the authority and power of God Himself.
The call to repent is the call to turn from Satan to God.
JLB
So you don't see the semantics. Try to remember this is strictly a moral issue so we don't start mistaking the analytical for the spiritual.
You see a choice that you attribute to the will as the basis for qualifying the word free in front of will. Rephrase: That is, that a choice/option is put before you. And because you now must choose, your choice/decision is freely made. Here's the problem: These are two different connotations for the word choice, decision and option. The 'decision' connotation of the term 'choice' is applicable to the 'will', but the connotation of the term 'choice' that pertains to an 'option' is not attributable to the 'will'. I hope I'm being comprehended here. Read that again if you're not sure you get it. As pertains to moral behavior, that is why these options exist and are called higher spiritual powers, they precede us in existence. Since the 'decision' comes after the 'option', then the 'circumstances' dictate that we must choose, not our ability to volunteer.
So therefore, morally speaking, that's why you can't substantiate freewill on the presence of a choice. That's conflating 'option' with 'decision' which is an equivocation. You can't say I could have done this, but I didn't, and so I have a freewill. That has nothing to do with the will actually being free when it chooses. Otherwise Satan would have to exist forever tempting man, so that the will could be free.
Having said that, let's examine the 'decision' connotation which is attributable to the will. We know we are going to be serving whichever one we choose. Romans 6:16. But what's important to note is that we first start out serving the Creator. As I said they are higher powers. Does God exist or what? Anyway, I therefore ask myself, is this decision to first reject God truly voluntary if I have rejected God because of Satan's deception? Is a deceived man free in his will as he chooses to reject God? And can he choose God while in a deception? So I fail to see how a man volunteers for being deceived. However if I am convicted by the truth of God, through the power of the cross, then that decision would be by grace through faith. Here is where I can volunteer with all my heart and here is where the term freewill makes any sense to me. John 8:32. So then why is the term free being applied in front of will, when we can't have two masters? Even because freewill is an equivocation.
Why does God insist it be by grace through faith in Him? I think He's trying to prove we're not free when we think we are. John 8:33. It's called going astray and His rod comforts me. God doesn't want us to think we chose Him, so that then we can be justified, in that when we rejected Him, it was by deception and not by volition. Romans 3:4 Therefore it is the faith of God whereby we may obtain mercy and forgiveness of sin even as we forgives others. Matthew 6:12. That is how I think God purifies the conscience. There's always a choice between Truth and lies when a liar speaks. I think that's the reason why we tend to prove we have a freewill by saying we can sin rather than we can follow God.
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Here the choice is clear:
Do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Romans 6:12-13
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
James says it this way -
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:15
The choice is clear -
Obedience leading to righteousness.
Or
Sin leading to death.
Choose this day whom you will serve.
JLB
Yes the choice is clear, as obvious as night and day. But this does not respond to my post which was about the term freewill. I don't know if you're missing the point I was making JLB. The point is that the term freewill is an equivocation through semantics. This is what was said:
So therefore, morally speaking, that's why you can't substantiate freewill on the presence of a choice. That's conflating 'option' with 'decision' which is an equivocation. You can't say I could have done this, but I didn't, and so I have a freewill. That has nothing to do with the will actually being free when it chooses. Otherwise Satan would have to exist forever tempting man, so that the will could be free.
I would respectfully like to know, did you understand it or not?
Here's the qualifier, If you think it evil for you to serve God, choose this day whom you will serve.
Freewill means you have a choice.
You can choose to present your members as instruments of unrighteousness...
or
You can choose to present your members as instruments of unrighteousness.
It's not difficult to understand.
Those that hold to OSAS doctrine, must work hard to try and convince everyone that a person no longer has a freewill, after they come to Christ.
Paul writing to his brother's in Christ at Rome - ...you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Romans 2:5-10
Paul writing to his brother's in Christ in Galatia - ...those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
Note: The expression inherit the kingdom of God, is used by Jesus on the Day of Judgement, and refers to those who are welcome into God's Kingdom.
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: .... Matthew 25:31-34
or
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41
Paul writing to his brother's in Christ in Corinth -
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:8-10
Note: Paul prefaces, that he is warning his brother's in Christ of a unrighteous and sinful lifestyle, in the previous chapter -
... For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? But those who are outside God judges.
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." 1 Corinthians 5:9-13
Paul's writing's encourage us, as well as warn us, just as they have those Christians in Rome, Galatia, and Corinth, about practicing the works of the flesh, and living an immoral lifestyle.
This lifestyle of hypocrisy, is what is called holding the truth in unrighteousness, and will be rewarded with wrath on the Day of wrath.
JLB
Stan1953
Member
Sadly I debate with MANY people who, whether truly or stubbornly, dogmatically tout that believers cannot sin, despite the clear indication in 1 John that they do, just not as a lifestyle. Thanks for the good exposition.
No that's not what freewill means. Check any dictionary.
These are the scriptures of the op. 1John 3:
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
As it is being asked to explain what theses scriptures mean, it is clear they are addressing the characteristics of those born of God and those children of Satan. Nor are these scriptures agreeing with you that men have moral freewills, but you wouldn't understand that because you don't know what freewill means.
These scriptures are saying that the choices and actions of the children of God are different from the choices and actions of the children of the devil because they are spiritually different. Which implies that righteousness and unrighteousness are indicative of the spirit living inside the person. Hence they don't choose to do righteousness and choose to do unrighteousness as a matter of free choice as freewill claims, but rather they are Fathered by different Fathers. John 3:6-7. John 8:44. John 8:28. John 1:13 1 Peter 1:23.
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Webster Dictionary
Definition of Free will -
A will free from improper coercion or restraint.
To come thus was I not constrained, but did
On my free will.
2. The power asserted of moral beings of willing or choosing without the restraints of physical or absolute necessity.
Dictionary.com
Definition of Free will -
noun
1.
free and independent choice; voluntary decision:
You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2.
Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.1 John 3:7-10
Practicing righteousness or not practicing righteousness is a free will choice of the believer.
God does not make us practice righteousness.
JLB
bcbsr said this:
"In this case John is saying that sinning is uncharacteristic of those born of God, not denying that it doesn't occur uncharactertically from time to time. Those born of God don't live a lifestyle of sin. And this is a distinguishing mark of those born of God. Thus when Paul says, "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1Cor 6:9,10 it is not that salvation is contingent upon one's behavior, but rather that there simply doesn't exists any such person who lives a lifestyle of sin who has been born of God."
Yet, we have Biblical evidence of just that. Solomon, when he "was old". 1 kings 11:1-13 says so.
Some will respond that he repented after that and then wrote Ecclesiastes. But given the passage from 1 Kings, why did God remove the kingdom from him as a direct result of his sin if he had repented?
v.11 - So the LORD said to Solomon, “Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant.
Another example is King Saul. We know from that once in a lifetime seance, when Samuel actually did return to talk with Saul, told Saul that he would join him the next day (1 Sam 28:19). Some will say that only meant "join him in the grave". But is that how a believer who has been in paradise would talk? No. Because Samuel wasn't "in the grave". He was alive in Paradise. And he told Saul that he would join him the next day. The only meaning is that Saul would be with Samuel in Paradise, proving that he was a believer.
Yet, consider how the Bible describes his death:
1 Chor 10:13,14 - 13So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.
"In this case John is saying that sinning is uncharacteristic of those born of God, not denying that it doesn't occur uncharactertically from time to time. Those born of God don't live a lifestyle of sin. And this is a distinguishing mark of those born of God. Thus when Paul says, "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1Cor 6:9,10 it is not that salvation is contingent upon one's behavior, but rather that there simply doesn't exists any such person who lives a lifestyle of sin who has been born of God."
His exposition was fine until that last statement and then citing 1 Cor 6:9,10. His claim is that those born of God basically will not (or cannot) life a lifestyle of sin.
Yet, we have Biblical evidence of just that. Solomon, when he "was old". 1 kings 11:1-13 says so.
Some will respond that he repented after that and then wrote Ecclesiastes. But given the passage from 1 Kings, why did God remove the kingdom from him as a direct result of his sin if he had repented?
v.11 - So the LORD said to Solomon, “Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant.
Another example is King Saul. We know from that once in a lifetime seance, when Samuel actually did return to talk with Saul, told Saul that he would join him the next day (1 Sam 28:19). Some will say that only meant "join him in the grave". But is that how a believer who has been in paradise would talk? No. Because Samuel wasn't "in the grave". He was alive in Paradise. And he told Saul that he would join him the next day. The only meaning is that Saul would be with Samuel in Paradise, proving that he was a believer.
Yet, consider how the Bible describes his death:
1 Chor 10:13,14 - 13So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.
Well done JLB. Now please don't get mad at me for saying the Truth. All these definitions have one thing in common when describing what freewill is. It does not mean to choose, It means to choose independently. As pertains to morality, righteousness and unrighteousness, freewill means there are no higher powers directing one's decisions.
Hence the belief in moral freewill, as defined by these dictionaries, is saying there is no such thing as the Spirit of God which is Love/empathy/kindness/ and every good characteristic that we see in the Christ, which is why we believe that he is the son of God. And also moral freewill, as described by the dictionary, is denying that there is a corrupt imagery of god in the subconscious of mankind that perverts and pollutes what is Holy resulting in unrighteous behavior.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.1 John 3:7-10
No, JLB it is not. The believer in Christ is conceding he needs a savior precisely because he can't practice righteousness. It is the confession that we can't choose life even as the Old Testament has confirmed. Christ came to save the unrighteous because they were pawns of the devil. Hence the bible uses the phrase 'slaves to sin' for the literal purpose of concluding that the will is not free to be righteous. There is a moral freewill, but it is not the one described in any dictionary. It is the will that has been set free through the revelation of Who God is.
Indeed He does make us practice righteousness because God is Love. Just as the scripture above says, Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God.
Right on Brother. That is why EVERY thread will come back to the simple doctrine of salvation and eternal security.
It hard for our carnal minds to grasp that we can live a lifestyle of sin and still be saved. In fact, to believe that we can't live like that will hinder our growth in His grace and knowledge. Our mental attitude will be...."a lifestyle FOR salvation" instead of ....."a lifestyle BECAUSE of salvation." It makes no sense to our carnal minds.
Its the close relationship between good and evil that is most dangerous for us believers. Not sin. Moral degeneracy(evil/human good) runs rampant in Christianity today. Not immoral degeneracy(sin).
I for one am glad to see you come out and say, what I have been saying all along, which is those who peddle the OSAS message, do so as a license to sin.
Those who practice unrighteousness, and the works of the flesh will receive their just wages, which is indignation and wrath... to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
These will not inherit the kingdom of God, but rather they will inherit the same thing as the unrighteous devil whom they follow and obey, which is the everlasting fires of hell.
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:5-8
and again
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41
and again
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
JLB
First you say that's not what freewill means, check any dictionary.
Then I quote a dictionary that says - expresses personal choice
the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice
What you mean is: the dictionary doesn't have the definition that you were taught, that freewill means...
220 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21
These chose to go back to the world and it's pollutions, after they had escaped, and they were entangled again to the point they were overcome.
.... it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it...
Read what the scripture so plainly and clearly says, for yourself.
JLB
ezrider
Member
First you say that's not what freewill means, check any dictionary.
Then I quote a dictionary that says - expresses personal choice
the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice
What you mean is: the dictionary doesn't have the definition that you were taught, that freewill means...
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21
These chose to go back to the world and it's pollutions, after they had escaped, and they were entangled again to the point they were overcome.
.... it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it...
Read what the scripture so plainly and clearly says, for yourself.
JLB
I agree with JLB in this one respect concerning freewill and the scriptures that he posted above. Christ has set us all free from the bondage of sin whose power and strength came from the Law (1 Cor 15:56).
Everyone has the freewill to place themselves back under the bondage of the Law, and many, many do!
This has been clearly refuted, as no one has been able to point to anyone who holds to OSAS as being a "license to sin". The Bible is clear that all humans are born dead in sins. Therefore we don't need a license to sin. It's inherent in our sinful natures. So please, don't peddle such an untrue claim. No one needs a license to sin. We ALL sin, both of us. Are you sinning without a license, or did you obtain one before you began sinning?
Comparing the 3 related passages, "inheriting the kingdom" refers to receiving an inheritance IN the kingdom. It cannot be just getting INTO the kingdom. We know this because Paul described justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God before he said that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. This is black and white. There is no context to look elsewhere for what Paul "might" have meant by 'gift' in 11:29.
Those who believe in conditional security simply won't accept that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable, even though the Bible says so.
Where in any of these verses does one find the words "salvation" or "eternal life" as being "lost"?
You've pointed out that the phrase "eternal life" doesn't occur in Rom 11:29. The road goes both ways. I've shown that Paul defined gift as justification and eternal life and then said that God's gifts are irrevocable. He didn't exclude either of these gifts as being irrevocable, and there is no context to bring in Matt 18.
The hard truth is that Scripture has given us 2 glaring examples of believers who ended their lives in sin and yet were saved.
First example is Solomon. I don't think anyone doubts that he was a believer, and Jesus quoted him many times. If he ended up in hell, I doubt that Jesus would have quoted him. But 1 Kings 11:1-11 reveals how he ended up when he "was old". His wives turned his heart from the Lord. The result was that God tore the kingdom from him. If he had repented of what is described in 1 Kings 11, and then wrote Ecclesiastes, why did God tear the kingdom away from him? The only sensible answer is that he didn't repent at the end of his life when he "was old".
Second example is King Saul. We know why he died and by Whom from 1 Chron 10:13-14 - 13So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.
This is an example of what John called the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5:16.
How do we know he was saved and went to paradise, where all the OT saints went after death? 1 Sam 28:19 tells us:
“Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”
The Biblical narrative says that Samuel came from the dead to tell Saul that because he screwed up, he would "be with me" the next day.
I know that some will say that Samuel only meant that Saul would "join him in the grave". But that's not how believers living in paradise talk. To say "tomorrow you will be with me" means exactly that: tomorrow you're going to be with me where I'm living; paradise.
Others might argue that it wasn't really Samuel at that seance? Oh, really? Then why does the Bible SAY that Samuel appeared and spoke to Saul? And the Bible attributes the words spoken to Samuel.
So even King Saul went to paradise when he died on the next day.
No JLB. I agree with the dictionary that freewill means to express personal Independent choice. As in independent from God or false gods and also sin and lust of the flesh, hence that is what qualifies the term free placed in front of will. See here from your posted definition:
First you say that's not what freewill means, check any dictionary.
Then I quote a dictionary that says - expresses personal choice
the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice
What you mean is: the dictionary doesn't have the definition that you were taught, that freewill means...
noun
1.
free and independent choice; voluntary decision:
The doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.
Please note that Love is the divine force known as God, and the will of the flesh is a physical manifestation. Hence freewill is saying we are not subject to either of these. Freewill is saying there is no such thing as children of God and Children of the devil.
Sorry JLB but you need to go back and read the definition of freewill again. I reiterate Freewill is not that we make choices or have the ability to reason. It is that we make moral choices independently from God or sin. None of these verses are saying that these who turn back to unrighteousness are not deceived. They say the exact opposite. 2 Peter 2:19, They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.
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