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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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1John 3:9 What does it mean?
- Thread starter bcbsr
- Start date
These are the semantics. To be precise you are saying there are two options placed in front of a person when the Gospel is presented, either to believe or not believe. In that sense you are correct. However anyone who doesn't believe in the Gospel does not do so via a freewill. Morally speaking there is no such thing. Nor does anyone believe via a freewill. John 1:13.....1 Corinthians 12:3...... 1 Corinthians 27-28. The Gospel is not about the ability to choose but is rather an issue of grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8-9. 2 Corinthians 4:4.
John 3:17.
Since I don't believe in freewill as described in the dictionary, this is how I read this scripture. They love darkness rather than Light because their deeds are evil. We know many of the Pharisees rejected the Light. Matthew 21:42. While prostitutes, tax collectors and sinners of all sorts received Jesus, and saw Jesus as the Light of God's nature, full of grace, mercy and understanding. For example, while the Pharisees wanted to stone the adulteress, Jesus said, he who has no sin cast the first stone. So why do the Pharisees love the darkness? Even because they thought of themselves as righteous through the works of the law. Righteousness through the law is the darkness. Galatians 4:23. Luke 7:47. Romans 9:32. Matthew 5:20.
I believe that the Pharisees believe in freewill. They think they and all men freely choose to do righteous acts because they can freely choose not to do unrighteous acts. They also praise and condemn others according to that belief. So therefore since they think they are full of light when actually they are full of darkness they are blind to their blindness. Matthew 6:22-23. Matthew 15:14.
So what they don't know and are blind to, is that sin is a slavery which men have been sold to. Romans 7:14. Isaiah 42:7. All evil tendencies to do evil deeds are because people are slaves to spiritual powers of darkness in high places. The blind therefore are not able to comprehend how there is healing for the blind and lame (sinners), and forgiveness for sins in the Light of Christ. John 1:5. They do not know there is a Truth that must be believed in to be set free from the slavery of sin, since they think men choose to sin freely. John 8:34. Ephesians 2:1-2. John 8:32. Hence those who believe anyone can freely choose to do righteousness and freely choose to not do unrighteousness, seek to establish their own righteousness which is not God's righteousness Romans 10:3. Romans 2:1. Galatians 5:1. But those who receive Jesus are cleansed, renewed in the mind, sanctified and justified through faith in Christ Jesus, the Truth and the way. Matthew 7:2. Romans 8:1.
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Douglas Summers
Member
Hi bsbcr The spiritual understanding that the born again do not PRACTICE sin. God gave us a new man, He did not change the old man and they are in conflict with each other so that we do not always do what we. (Gal. 5:16-18). Paul describes his struggle in (Rom. 7:15-25; this is the struggle between the old Saul and the new man Paul). And here is the result of being born again of the Spirit (Rom. 8:1-2). 1 John 3:10 is saying the same thing for those who are born again.
In Christ
Douglas Summers
Hello. I simply wanted to say, I never heard it put this way before. "God gave us a new man, He did not change the old man".
I like that.
1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
This verse is frequently misunderstood. The phrase "born of God" refers to regeneration, which creates a "new creature" per 2 Cor 5:17. This is repeated by the phrase "God's seed remains in him". iow, once born again, God's seed, the new man, remains in the one who believes.
The statement about "cannot go on sinning" refers to the fact that the believer cannot sin from his new nature. The believer continues to sin from his human nature, the "old man", the flesh.
Paul commands believers not to "grieve" (Eph 4:30) or quench (2 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. We do so by sinning.
But when the believer is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and is walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16), they cannot be sinning. In fact, the believer can only be filled and walk by the Spirit WHEN functioning from the "new man", or the new nature.
This verse is frequently misunderstood. The phrase "born of God" refers to regeneration, which creates a "new creature" per 2 Cor 5:17. This is repeated by the phrase "God's seed remains in him". iow, once born again, God's seed, the new man, remains in the one who believes.
The statement about "cannot go on sinning" refers to the fact that the believer cannot sin from his new nature. The believer continues to sin from his human nature, the "old man", the flesh.
Paul commands believers not to "grieve" (Eph 4:30) or quench (2 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. We do so by sinning.
But when the believer is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and is walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16), they cannot be sinning. In fact, the believer can only be filled and walk by the Spirit WHEN functioning from the "new man", or the new nature.
Jethro Bodine
Member
But John said the person who sins (sins from their sin nature despite their 'born again' nature, as you say) is not of God:
"anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)
And in case you want to define 'not of God' to mean simply not presently operating in the new nature the believer has, John shows us it means that person is not born again and does not have eternal life:
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no * murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:14 NASB)
Prior to this, John tells the church to " let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
The abiding is up to us. We ultimately decide if God's word, the agent of born again transformation (James 1:18 NASB) continues to abide in us or not. It only abides forever in us if we let it. Thus the warning to let it do that. No abiding means no born again transformation. John says no born again transformation (righteous living) means, as I've shown, that you do not have eternal life.
You're talking about faith right? But it takes God's Word abiding in someone to believe in. That's what I take this scripture to mean. It's all about knowing Christ and His Personification of God. I don't think this is a warning. I think it's an affirmation.
Correct. Their actions are not of or from God.
I disagree, because John began his epistle with emphasis on FELLOWSHIP, not relationship. But for those who see no difference between the 2 will just not understand this. Further, the Bible is crystal clear that eternal life is a gift of God from Rom 6:23, along with justification in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. After 6:23, the very NEXT USE of 'gift' is found in Rom 11:29, where Paul stated that God's gifts are irrevocable. The ONLY WAY to know what Paul meant by 'gift' in 11:29 is to see how he defined it prior to that verse. And we find that he was referring to both justification and eternal life.
So any claim that 1 John 3 is about loss of eternal life simply misunderstands what John was referring to.
All statements about "abiding" have to do with FELLOWSHIP, not relationship. The difference is huge.
Absolutely correct! Which has nothing to do with maintaining our salvation. We must maintain our FELLOWSHIP with Christ.
The issue of FELLOWSHIP has to do with fruit production. Jesus addressed His 11 remaining saved disciples in John 15 and said this: 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:4,5
So it is clear that Jesus was speaking of production of fruit, not getting or holding onto salvation. If we are not in FELLOWSHIP with Christ (abiding in Him) we cannot produce any fruit.
The warning has nothing to do with our born again transformation. It's all about FELLOWSHIP. Not relationship. John made that clear enough.
I strongly disagree. It is about FELLOWSHIP, not relationship. We know that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable, so let's move on and focus on HOW we are to live the Christian life and be productive for Christ.
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:20-23
There very thing you claim is impossible, loss of relationship, is the subject of Paul's warning, to the Gentiles.
Being cut off, which means they were disconnected from the covenant relationship with God, through unbelief.
The calling is still extended to them, as well as the gifts, however they must choose to believe like everyone who will be saved.
Paul warns the Gentiles the they also are in danger of being cut off, if they don't continue in faith and continue in His goodness.
[ if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel... ] Col. 1:23
The gifts, plural not singular, and the calling to salvation continues to be extended to those who were cut off from God, of which you say can not happen.
The point Paul makes is they still have the hope of being grafted back in.
And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:23
The reason they have the hope of being grafted back in again is; ...the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
If what you say is true, "they can never be broken off", then they wouldn't have to be grafted back in.
back in means; they were in relationship, but were broken off.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
We know from simply reading this passage that it is not true that all statements about abiding have to do with fellowship, not relationship. He makes it clear that the abiding he's talking about is abiding in eternal life:
"anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no * murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:14 NASB)
This being true, we can see that John is not just talking about manifest fellowship here either, but rather eternal life itself:
" let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
The Gospel of the kingdom is about choosing who a person will serve.
Concerning the Gospel people have a choice to obey the Gospel or not.
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17
And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
Joshua 24:15
... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:1:7-8
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
Paul admonishes us to choose to put to death the evil desires of the sinful nature that dwells in out flesh.
It's a choice.
JLB
Reading Comprehension.
smaller
Member
The Apostle John does an excellent job in drawing us in to the Divine Paradox.
I prefer the KJV rendering of the particular verse in question, rather than the paraphrased version used in the opening post where "continuing" is added. The KJV is much more precise:
1 John 3:
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
And it's even more precise, here, from the same chapter:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
These deployments are impossible to understand without understanding that simultaneous but opposing truths or facts are deployed in the scriptures.
Opposing but simultaneously existing truths are known as paradoxes.
The Divine Paradox that God has set before everyone is an internal condition and an external condition commonly referred to as "good and evil."
Even though we may do and be good, the fact of evil has NOT disappeared from the equations. This is a paradox. And paradoxes, by nature, can be tricky subjects. To lean on one or the other side will produce confusions. Both presentations remain in play and remain facts, even though they are opposing facts.
The scriptures are built upon this paradox. Of good and evil. That is the Divine Environment that we "all" have been placed into and are subject to. In order to understand the paradox, we may have to personally submit to it to understand it. Or we remain confused by it.
In understanding it personally, we understand our place, as subjects to the paradox, and we then bow or submit to Gods Hands in making our environment, so.
IN this equation for example, a child of God is both sinner and saint. And this is the ground we argue about for the most part, trying to be one or the other when in fact what we perceive as we is actually both.
I prefer the KJV rendering of the particular verse in question, rather than the paraphrased version used in the opening post where "continuing" is added. The KJV is much more precise:
1 John 3:
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
And it's even more precise, here, from the same chapter:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
These deployments are impossible to understand without understanding that simultaneous but opposing truths or facts are deployed in the scriptures.
Opposing but simultaneously existing truths are known as paradoxes.
The Divine Paradox that God has set before everyone is an internal condition and an external condition commonly referred to as "good and evil."
Even though we may do and be good, the fact of evil has NOT disappeared from the equations. This is a paradox. And paradoxes, by nature, can be tricky subjects. To lean on one or the other side will produce confusions. Both presentations remain in play and remain facts, even though they are opposing facts.
The scriptures are built upon this paradox. Of good and evil. That is the Divine Environment that we "all" have been placed into and are subject to. In order to understand the paradox, we may have to personally submit to it to understand it. Or we remain confused by it.
In understanding it personally, we understand our place, as subjects to the paradox, and we then bow or submit to Gods Hands in making our environment, so.
IN this equation for example, a child of God is both sinner and saint. And this is the ground we argue about for the most part, trying to be one or the other when in fact what we perceive as we is actually both.
A child of God is a saint.
The flesh that a child of God dwells in, contains a sin nature that is contrary to the new nature.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:2-6,10
It is the work of the new nature, empowered by the Spirit within, that must subdue and have dominion over the nature of sin, that dwells in the flesh.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14
JLB
smaller
Member
By example, in Romans, Paul lays out this paradox quite interestingly, and summarized the "human condition," personally applied to "me," an individual. He first laid these positions upon himself in Romans 7. And then, by extension, to Israel as a people, in Romans 9, and by contrast, to Esau and pharaoh. Paul understands that these are "external showings" of the internal condition of all people, and summarized his findings with a VERY BIG IF. And it is that IF that he reasons to us with:
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
There, right there, is the PARADOX of "ME" in the same lump, two vessels made to entirely different ENDS.
Paul deploys this same dictate again, in 2 Tim. 2:20-21, showing that we are to "divide" ourselves from being "vessel number 2" in the above example.
And in this "division" we become useful vessels for God in Christ. Yet to deny we have "the other vessel" to divide from takes us out of TRUTH.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
There, right there, is the PARADOX of "ME" in the same lump, two vessels made to entirely different ENDS.
Paul deploys this same dictate again, in 2 Tim. 2:20-21, showing that we are to "divide" ourselves from being "vessel number 2" in the above example.
And in this "division" we become useful vessels for God in Christ. Yet to deny we have "the other vessel" to divide from takes us out of TRUTH.
smaller
Member
Jesus, quite adriotly, makes a similar observation, here:
Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Again, the paradox is in play here, personally.
Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Again, the paradox is in play here, personally.
smaller
Member
So let's see who is honest and who is not so honest.
There are Words of God in Christ that every christian, down to the last believer, FEARS to hear. Yet Jesus has solidly and securely advised us, particularly as believers that we, that what we perceive ourselves to be, shall LIVE by every Word of God. (Luke 4:4 Matt. 4:4)
Not just the Words we like, but by EVERY WORD of God. Should we then find DEATH when we should hear LIFE in every Word?
So, now I stand before God in Christ, fully knowing the DIVINE PARADOX. That the person that is me, is comprised internally of both good and evil. I submit to this reality of God. I submit that I am His subject, made this way, internally. Literally of TWO separate (internal) vessels, one to honor, as a child of God, and one to dishonor, as a vessel of destruction.
Then, at either "my end" or our "collective" end, comes Jesus with these Words:
Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
An honest person should say to themselves, yes, I have sinned. I "have" sin as a present tense reality. Sin is iniquity.
Why then would I NOT hear those Words? I expect to, and will DELIGHT in hearing same. Because I understand that
A. I, as a child of God, a vessel of HONOR, I will LIVE by every Word of God.
and
B. the vessel of dishonor in the lump of "me" WILL NOT, but will be damned and condemned, rightfully so. These "vessels" will find their ending in the LoF.
No vessel of dishonor will want to hear those Words. They can not hear. They will not hear. They will fight to their END not to hear. They will in fact run and hide from same Those Words of God. They will insulate and isolate themselves by any means to NOT HEAR those Words.
Yet these are The Words of LIFE.
There are Words of God in Christ that every christian, down to the last believer, FEARS to hear. Yet Jesus has solidly and securely advised us, particularly as believers that we, that what we perceive ourselves to be, shall LIVE by every Word of God. (Luke 4:4 Matt. 4:4)
Not just the Words we like, but by EVERY WORD of God. Should we then find DEATH when we should hear LIFE in every Word?
So, now I stand before God in Christ, fully knowing the DIVINE PARADOX. That the person that is me, is comprised internally of both good and evil. I submit to this reality of God. I submit that I am His subject, made this way, internally. Literally of TWO separate (internal) vessels, one to honor, as a child of God, and one to dishonor, as a vessel of destruction.
Then, at either "my end" or our "collective" end, comes Jesus with these Words:
Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
An honest person should say to themselves, yes, I have sinned. I "have" sin as a present tense reality. Sin is iniquity.
Why then would I NOT hear those Words? I expect to, and will DELIGHT in hearing same. Because I understand that
A. I, as a child of God, a vessel of HONOR, I will LIVE by every Word of God.
and
B. the vessel of dishonor in the lump of "me" WILL NOT, but will be damned and condemned, rightfully so. These "vessels" will find their ending in the LoF.
No vessel of dishonor will want to hear those Words. They can not hear. They will not hear. They will fight to their END not to hear. They will in fact run and hide from same Those Words of God. They will insulate and isolate themselves by any means to NOT HEAR those Words.
Yet these are The Words of LIFE.
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1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1 John 3:1-3
We are now called children of God.
We will continue to be called children of God, as we continue to have faith in Jesus Christ.
The Paradox lies with the definition of faith, and the understanding of our hope for a resurrected body that is eternal and just like Christ's.
Paul explains -
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:22-25
What we are hoping for, and eagerly waiting for with perseverance is the redemption of our body at the end of the age, when Jesus Christ returns to Gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture.
This is the salvation that awaits those who endure to the end. Matthew 24:13, 1 Peter 1:9
For faith is the substance of the thing we are hoping for... Salvation.
Now we have it "by faith", then, when He comes, we will have the reality of the thing we are hoping for... Salvation; Eternal Life.
...everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
JLB