2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[chessman]

Hebrews 6 speaks of receiving the Holy Spirit, what is doesn't speak of is unsaved Jewish leaders.

• and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:4 does not say they "received" the Holy Spirit. You can personally replace the word used with your word if you like. But the fact is, "partaker" is what Hebrews uses. It's the same word as used here;

Luke 5:7 (NASB) so they signaled to their partners in the other boat for them to come and help them. And they came and filled both of the boats, so that they began to sink. ​

http://biblehub.com/greek/3353.htm

 

[JLB]

Heb 6:4 does not say they "received" the Holy Spirit. You can personally replace the word used with your word if you like. But the fact is, "partaker" is what Hebrews uses. It's the same word as used here;

Luke 5:7 (NASB) so they signaled to their partners in the other boat for them to come and help them. And they came and filled both of the boats, so that they began to sink. ​

http://biblehub.com/greek/3353.htm

Here is what your Bible hub link shows: http://biblehub.com/greek/3353.htm

STRONGS NT 3353: μέτοχος

μέτοχος, μέτοχον (μετέχω);

1. sharing in, partaking of, with the genitive of the thing (Winer's Grammar, § 30, 8 a.): Hebrews 3:1; Hebrews 6:4; Hebrews 12:8; τοῦ Χριστοῦ, of his mind, and of the salvation procured by him, Hebrews 3:14; cf. Bleek at the passage

2. a partner (in a work, office, dignity): Hebrews 1:9 (from Psalm 44:8 ()); Luke 5:7. (Herodotus, Euripides, Plato, Demosthenes, others.)


You are attempting to use the alternative definition, which is about being a partner, when the primary definition is about salvation.

• Another attempt yours at redefining bible words to change the meaning of a verse.

A simple read of the context shows us that the writer is speaking about salvation: Repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Hebrews 6:4-12


The author is teaching about salvation, not fishing boat partners.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Where do I find the lexicons used on that website? https://www.blueletterbible.org/

When you go into one of their word definitions then it lists them. It's hard to describe, but you'll find it I'm sure. It all seems complicated at first, but gets easier to use.

 

[Nathan]

I thought Paul's writing about the sealing with the Holy Spirit was clear enough. The sealing is a guarantee for the day of redemption. So how can anything a believer does change that? I don't see how.

Can a believer quit believing in Jesus as the only means of salvation, and start offering works to God for salvation - and still remain sealed?

 

[chessman]

A simple read of the context shows us that the writer is speaking about salvation: Repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit.

If the author had meant "receiving" the Holy Spirit, he would have used the word used in Acts

Acts 2:38 (NASB) Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
​

h2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively(actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983 /lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition(assertiveness) of the receiver.

biblehub.com/greek/2983.htm

BTW, "redefining" a word is not pointing out it's scope of meaning. Its changing the meaning. Like 'changing' the word used in Heb 6:4 to the one used in Acts 2:38.

You receive a gift.
You partner in work.

 

[JLB]

If the author had meant "receiving" the Holy Spirit, he would have used the word used in Acts

Acts 2:38 (NASB) Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
​

h2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively(actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983 /lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition(assertiveness) of the receiver.

biblehub.com/greek/2983.htm

BTW, "redefining" a word is not pointing out it's scope of meaning. It's changing the meaning. Like 'changing' the word used in Heb 6:4 to the one used in Acts 2:38.

You receive a gift.
You partner in work.

Is the context about salvation, or fishing boat partners?

If the context was about fishing and partners then you may have a point, but since the context is about salvation, and partaking of the Holy Spirit, in which we become enlightened, [a reference to Jesus Christ as the true Light] through repentance, then "drinking in" the Holy Spirit is a direct reference to receiving the Holy Spirit.

• Jesus directly refers to eternal life as being water that is received by drinking.

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. Revelation 21:6

• People who thirst, receive water by drinking.

Again, the "partner" definition is secondary and not what the context dictates.

Here is what your Bible hub link shows: http://biblehub.com/greek/3353.htm

STRONGS NT 3353: μέτοχος

μέτοχος, μέτοχον (μετέχω);

1. sharing in, partaking of, with the genitive of the thing (Winer's Grammar, § 30, 8 a.): Hebrews 3:1; Hebrews 6:4; Hebrews 12:8; τοῦ Χριστοῦ, of his mind, and of the salvation procured by him, Hebrews 3:14; cf. Bleek at the passage

2. a partner (in a work, office, dignity): Hebrews 1:9 (from Psalm 44:8 ()); Luke 5:7. (Herodotus, Euripides, Plato, Demosthenes, others.)


You are attempting to use the alternative definition, which is about being a partner, when the primary definition is about salvation.

• Another attempt yours at redefining bible words to change the meaning of a verse.

A simple read of the context shows us that the writer is speaking about salvation: Repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Hebrews 6:4-12


The author is teaching about salvation, not fishing boat partners.



JLB

 

[chessman]

If the context was about fishing and partners then you may have a point, but since the context is about salvation, and partaking of the Holy Spirit, in which we become enlightened

Did 'we' (to use your word) crucify the Son of God and put Him to open shame, or did "they", "themselves" that crucifed Him (the Jewish leaders)?

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​

The author is teaching about salvation, not fishing boat partners.

More insertion on your part. The author never mentioned in Heb 6 the "salvation" of those that crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Do you think the "they" that crucifed Christ were saved? (Third time)

 

[chessman]

I said the Jewish leaders were to:

partnership with the Spirit of God to cultivate (till the soil) as God watered the ground to bear fruit. They failed and were about to get burned for it.

The meaning of the word Hebrews uses includes:

sharing in, partaking of, with the genitive of the thing

I'm not changing the meaning of any words.
It is not the same word as "received" for a reason.

It's the difference in partnering in one's salvation versus 'receiving' Salvation by trusting the Savior. There's a difference.

Proverbs 29:24-25 (NASB) He who is a partner with a thief hates his own life; He hears the oath but tells nothing. The fear of man brings a snare, But he who trusts in the Lord will be exalted.​

Luke 5:8-11 (NASB) But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus’ feet, saying, “Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man!” For amazement had seized him and all his companions because of the catch of fish which they had taken; and so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, “Do not fear, from now on you will be catching men.” When they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed Him.​

Peter and the sons of Zebedee "partnered" with God to catch fish (and men). But they "received" salvation from the Lord.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Did 'we' (to use your word) crucify the Son of God and put Him to open shame, or did "they", "themselves" that crucifed Him (the Jewish leaders)?

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​

More insertion on your part. The author never mentioned in Heb 6 the "salvation" of those that crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Do you think the "they" that crucifed Christ were saved? (Third time)

Jesus hung on that cross because of my, your, and every one else's sin, He died because we are a wicked people, even after we are saved. (Rom. 3:10 & 23)

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal life is for those who are "in Christ Jesus".

I agree.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Absolutely!

As long as we are "in Christ" and are joined to Him, we are joined to the eternal life that is "in Him".

Except "as long as" don't figure in. Because Eph 1:13-14 makes totally clear that "having believed", which is in the aorist tense, means in a point in time. And the result of "having believed" in a point in time, one is sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise, or guarantee, or earnest deposit for the day of redemption.

Heb 6:18 tells us that "it is impossible for God to lie". Therefore, all of His promises and guarantees will occur.

Therefore, it is impossible for one who "having believed" and sealed with the Holy Spirit, will not experience "the day of redemption".

Jesus makes this plain in John 15.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

This cannot refer to loss of salvation, because it is "impossible for God to lie", per Heb 6:18, and "having believed", and sealed, that person is guaranteed the day of redemption, not the day of judgment.

The way we come to be "in Christ" is to believe.
The way we remain "in Him", is to continue to believe.

I've not found any verse that says this. In fact, Eph 1:13-14 based being sealed in Him on "having believed", not continuous believing.

Those who are "in Him", then later are removed from Him, no longer have access to the eternal life "in Him", they once had when they were joined to Him, just as a branch no longer has access to the life giving sustenance of the vine it was once connected to.
JLB

Where does Scripture teach that one sealed has been, or can be, removed "from Him"? That is in contrast to Eph 1:13-14.

It is impossible for God to lie.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please tell me how anyone can receive salvation without faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I cannot do that because no one receives salvation apart from faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And your question is quite puzzling as there is nothing in my posts that would suggest such a thing.

'Nearly 200 times in the New Testament, faith (or belief) is declared to be the sole condition for salvation (John 1:12; Acts 16:31)' (GotQuestions?org) The logical conclusion of these verses is that if one does not believe or have faith, he/she cannot have salvation.

As I've just explained to another poster, Eph 1:13 says "having believed", which is the aorist tense. The result of this point in time believing is being sealed with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption (v.14).

Do you want to please God and believe in Christ for salvation? Do you want to lose salvation, then stop believing in Christ. That's the logical consequence of unbelief.

Since Heb 6:18 says that it is impossible for God to lie, and we have His promise for the day of redemption based on "having believed" and being sealed by the Spirit, it is impossible to lose salvation.

What could be clearer than Heb 3:12 (NIV)? 'See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God'.

It is quite clear that there is a possibility of any believer turning away from the living God. But that doesn't either say or mean that doing so results in loss of salvation. It requires a very healthy dose of assumption to come to that conclusion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Can a believer quit believing in Jesus as the only means of salvation, and start offering works to God for salvation - and still remain sealed?

Yes. Because "it is impossible for God to lie", per Heb 6:18. And Eph 1:13-14 tells us "having believed" (aorist tense), one is sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.

 

[MarkT]

What? A believer is one who trusted in Christ and His work.

So you are telling me that you are not saved And you don't believe that you were saved the moment you trusted Christ?

A believer is someone who believes in the word of God. When I first heard the word, I believed and so I was born again. 1 Peter 1:23

1 Peter 1:23
You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Jesus said, 'if you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples'. John 8:30-32 That's what I believe and it's what I continue to believe.

"As he spoke thus, many believed in him. Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” John 8:30-32 RSV

Re. salvation Jesus said, 'he who endures to the end will be saved'. Mt. 24:13

Those who finish the race get the reward.

2 Timothy 4:7-8 RSV 'I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing'.

 

[Nathan]

Yes. Because "it is impossible for God to lie", per Heb 6:18. And Eph 1:13-14 tells us "having believed" (aorist tense), one is sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.

Ok, this floors me. I can honestly say I have never met a believer that honestly believed you could believe there was another way of salvation.

Do you have Biblical proof you can stop believing that Jesus is the only way of salvation, and still be saved?

 

[Jim Parker]

Heb 6:4 does not say they "received" the Holy Spirit. You can personally replace the word used with your word if you like. But the fact is, "partaker" is what Hebrews uses. It's the same word as used here;

Luke 5:7 (NASB) so they signaled to their partners in the other boat for them to come and help them. And they came and filled both of the boats, so that they began to sink. ​

http://biblehub.com/greek/3353.htm

Whether one "partakes" of the Holy Spirit or one "partners" with the Holy Spirit, they must "receive" the holy Spirit in order to do so.

 

[Jim Parker]

Heb 6:4 does not say they "received" the Holy Spirit. You can personally replace the word used with your word if you like. But the fact is, "partaker" is what Hebrews uses. It's the same word as used here;

Luke 5:7 (NASB) so they signaled to their partners in the other boat for them to come and help them. And they came and filled both of the boats, so that they began to sink. ​

http://biblehub.com/greek/3353.htm

Whether they were "partakers" of the Holy Spirit or "Partners" with the Holy spirit, it is necessary to "receive" the holy Spirit in order to do either of those things.
Plus, the word "enlightened" was used by the early church in the same way as the word "saved" was used.
(Heb 6:4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened...)

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Yes. Because "it is impossible for God to lie", per Heb 6:18. And Eph 1:13-14 tells us "having believed" (aorist tense), one is sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption."

Ok, this floors me. I can honestly say I have never met a believer that honestly believed you could believe there was another way of salvation.

I don't believe there is any other way than faith in Jesus Christ. However, being on various forums over the years has shown that there are those who claim to be believers and yet believe a lot of unbiblical things.

Do you have Biblical proof you can stop believing that Jesus is the only way of salvation, and still be saved?

The evidence for eternal security is found in the very promises of God. First, Heb 6:18 says that it is impossible for God to lie. Now, all we have to do is see what His promises are.

Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28. Notice that never perishing is based solely on receiving the gift of eternal life.

Also, Eph 1:13-14 say that "having believed" one is sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption.

I do not know how else to understand these promises other than that God promises eternal life for having believed.

Finally, I have not found any verses that express the condition of having to continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life.

And, John 10:28 and Eph 1:13-14 promise the opposite.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"Yes. Because "it is impossible for God to lie", per Heb 6:18. And Eph 1:13-14 tells us "having believed" (aorist tense), one is sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption."

I don't believe there is any other way than faith in Jesus Christ. However, being on various forums over the years has shown that there are those who claim to be believers and yet believe a lot of unbiblical things.


The evidence for eternal security is found in the very promises of God. First, Heb 6:18 says that it is impossible for God to lie. Now, all we have to do is see what His promises are.

Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28. Notice that never perishing is based solely on receiving the gift of eternal life.

Also, Eph 1:13-14 say that "having believed" one is sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption.

I do not know how else to understand these promises other than that God promises eternal life for having believed.

Finally, I have not found any verses that express the condition of having to continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life.

And, John 10:28 and Eph 1:13-14 promise the opposite.

You said that you believed a person who turns from faith would still be sealed did you not?

So then how can you say that you don't believe there is any other way than faith in Jesus?

These two beliefs are opposed to each other.

 

[JLB]

I'm not changing the meaning of any words.
It is not the same word as "received" for a reason.

It's the difference in partnering in one's salvation versus 'receiving' Salvation by trusting the Savior. There's a difference.

Proverbs 29:24-25 (NASB) He who is a partner with a thief hates his own life; He hears the oath but tells nothing. The fear of man brings a snare, But he who trusts in the Lord will be exalted.
Luke 5:8-11 (NASB) But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus’ feet, saying, “Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man!” For amazement had seized him and all his companions because of the catch of fish which they had taken; and so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, “Do not fear, from now on you will be catching men.” When they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed Him.
Peter and the sons of Zebedee "partnered" with God to catch fish (and men). But they "received" salvation from the Lord.

When you drink a glass of water, you are receiving the water into you.

• Jesus directly refers to eternal life as being water that is received by drinking.

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. Revelation 21:6

• People who thirst, receive water by drinking.

A simple read of the context shows us that the writer is speaking about salvation: Repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Hebrews 6:4-12

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance,
Hebrews 6:4-6


You can't explain away what is being said here and the warning that is being taught.

Those who have been enlightened by Jesus the Light of the world through repentance, and have partaken of the Holy Spirit, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, is crystal clear.


Just as those who depart from the faith is a crystal clear reference to departing from faith in Christ Jesus, which is departing from Him.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

That is one view, it is not mine. I do my best to live like a small child that is born of God. There is, literally, nothing in the Bible, I believe it... just as my babies believed anything they heard from me. I see this as what is meant by the verse.

That is one view, it is not mine. I do my best to live like a small child that is born of God. There is, literally, nothing in the Bible, I believe it... just as my babies believed anything they heard from me. I see this as what is meant by the verse.

Bill,

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (online) provides this definition of a simile: It is 'a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses)' [Merriam-Webster Dictionary online 2017. s v simile).

Therefore, it is a fact that Matt 18:3 (NIV) uses a simile, a figure of speech. No matter how much you protest, Jesus used a simile to express the difference between adult's and children entering the kingdom. Adults are to become as children to enter the kingdom. Afterall, he was addressing adults (his disciples), according to Matt 18:1 (NIV).

Oz