2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[FreeGrace]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
Yes, I believe it. One of the most evil and wicked things we can do is teach a believer that they are not 100% secure in Christ. If we could lose salvation, this teaching would be it................but it ain't going to happen. We are forever sealed by God.

gr8,

It happened for some in the Hebrews' audience, according to Heb 6:4-6 (ESV). It also happened to Hymenaeus and Alexander who 'made shipwreck of their faith' (1 Tim 1:18-19 ESV).

There is no mention of any sealed believer being unsealed. These verses are about believers who returned to animal sacrifice or ruined their faith. Nothing about being unsealed.

One of the most truthful things we can teach all believers is that they can commit apostasy (fall away from the faith). Jesus' word on this was, 'The one who endures to the end will be saved', Matt 24:13 (NLT).

Oz

Apostasy is real. Yes. But nowhere in the Bible do we read that loss of faith equals loss of salvation.

We are sealed for the day of redemption. Words mean things.

Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28

That is a very powerful promise. But it seems there are those who don't believe that promise. That there are more conditions to meet in order to hold on to one's free gift of eternal life.

If there were, Jesus would have so noted IN John 10:28. But there are no other conditions. Only the condition of receiving eternal life.

Which occurs at the beginning of one's faith. John 5:24.

 

[OzSpen]

The only question is where does the Bible address how anyone who has been sealed can be unsealed (removal of the Holy Spirit).

A sealed believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. To mark the believer as a possession of God.

If there is any way a sealed person can be unsealed, the Bible would specifically warn about it. So,where is the specific warning?

FreeGrace,

The Bible does warn about it. The answer is simple, but you don't want to hear it:

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace, Heb 6:4-6 (NIV).​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
Yes, I believe it. One of the most evil and wicked things we can do is teach a believer that they are not 100% secure in Christ. If we could lose salvation, this teaching would be it................but it ain't going to happen. We are forever sealed by God.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV) and 1 Tim 1:18-20 (NIV) do present warnings of the possibility of falling away from the faith,

Thanks. I only use an intiliner to see what word is used, then transition over to the lexicon for definition.

Which Lexicon are you using for definitions?

 

[chessman]

To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace, Heb 6:4-6 (NIV).

Who crucifed the Son of God and subjected Him to public disgrace?

 

[OzSpen]

Who crucifed the Son of God and subjected Him to public disgrace?

Your point?

 

[gr8grace3]

Hey, gr8grace3!! Welcome to the fray!

Looks like you got your hands full!

 

[chessman]

Your point?

The Jewish leadership crucifed The Son of God (Christ) through the hands of the Romans.

The Jewish leaders were enlightened once and 'tasted' the heavenly gift "The Son of Man". Then they crucifed Him.

Were the Jewish leaders ever saved, in your opinion?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The only question is where does the Bible address how anyone who has been sealed can be unsealed (removal of the Holy Spirit).

A sealed believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. To mark the believer as a possession of God.

If there is any way a sealed person can be unsealed, the Bible would specifically warn about it. So,where is the specific warning?"

FreeGrace,

The Bible does warn about it. The answer is simple, but you don't want to hear it:

I've seen every "proof-text" from the OSNAS group. And none of the texts speak specifically about how or even that the sealing with the Holy Spirit is undone.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace, Heb 6:4-6 (NIV).
Oz

This passage says nothing about losing the sealing with the Holy Spirit. Neither about loss of salvation.

The passages that specifically tell us that this sealing is a guarantee for the day of redemption are not accepted by the OSNAS group.

Or that eternal life, described as a gift of God in Rom 6:23, is irrevocable, since Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV) and 1 Tim 1:18-20 (NIV) do present warnings of the possibility of falling away from the faith,

I've never agreed with the Calvinist position that a true believer cannot fall away from the faith. Jesus specifically said so in Luke 8:13.

But, what the Bible never even suggests, is that loss of faith equals loss of salvation. That has not been shown.

Which Lexicon are you using for definitions?

Greek ones. Please inform as to which Greek lexicons are false. I'll be sure to avoid them.

 

[WIP]

Biblical hope is certainty. If we have believed, we are certain of eternal life.

If we "have believed" or if we "believe?"

 

[WIP]

Looks like you got your hands full!

Reminder....this is not a competition like a boxing match where the opponent who scores the most punches wins. It's about the study of theology.

 

[Nathan]

What does the Bible say about the sealing with the Holy Spirit? The OP answered that question.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Corr 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

This deposit, which is the Holy Spirit, is a guarantee of what is to come.

So, what is to come? That is answered in Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

And, just to make it very clear, we have Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

So, we are sealed for the day of redemption. Based on being sealed.

If there are any verses that specifically address this sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit and show that by any means this seal can be broken, so that the one sealed is no longer sealed, and no longer guaranteed for the day of redemption, please share.

Is that a yes or a no? I'm confused on what you believe.

Question was;

Can a believer do anything and still be sealed?

I find it an easy question to answer yes or no to, I figured you would too.

 

[Nathan]

Which Lexicon are you using for definitions?

I mainly use blueletterbible.org. It has a couple lexicons in it.

 

[MarkT]

I've never agreed with the Calvinist position that a true believer cannot fall away from the faith. Jesus specifically said so in Luke 8:13.

But, what the Bible never even suggests, is that loss of faith equals loss of salvation. That has not been shown.


Greek ones. Please inform as to which Greek lexicons are false. I'll be sure to avoid them.

If they fall away and they no longer believe, how can they be saved? I mean, if they reject the life giving word of God, then there is no life in them to save. Then, as Jesus said, they are gathered and burned. John 15:6

Those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed. Isa. 1:28

 

[gr8grace3]

If we "have believed" or if we "believe?"

Salvation is a moment in time. The moment we believe we are saved ~~Acts 16:31, sealed~~2 Cor 1:22, bought with His price~~1 cor 6:20, no longer our own~~1 Cor 6:19.

And Eph 1:13 gives us an excellent summary of this~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[MarkT]

Salvation is a moment in time. The moment we believe we are saved ~~Acts 16:31, sealed~~2 Cor 1:22, bought with His price~~1 cor 6:20, no longer our own~~1 Cor 6:19.

And Eph 1:13 gives us an excellent summary of this~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Well, what is the message of truth that they believed?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

The message of truth that they believed is God gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, not God gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him for a while should not perish. Many who saw him and heard him believed in him for a while and then they fell away. They were not saved the moment they believed.

 

[JLB]

The Jewish leadership crucifed The Son of God (Christ) through the hands of the Romans.

The Jewish leaders were enlightened once and 'tasted' the heavenly gift "The Son of Man". Then they crucifed Him.

Were the Jewish leaders ever saved, in your opinion?

I see so can you show us a scripture that says the Pharisee's who crucified Jesus, had received the Holy Spirit?


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

• have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

A reference to the Gospel Message and receiving the power of the Holy Spirit.


This is teaching the Jews who are born again, and have received the Holy Spirit, then return to Judaism, while under persecution from unbelieving Jews, if the "fall away", they can not be renewed again unto repentance, and have put Jesus to an open shame.


That is the context, which begins in Hebrews 3, about being faithful to the end, which is another way of saying, holding fast to the faith to the end.


4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:4-6

and again

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14







JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Well, what is the message of truth that they believed?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

The message of truth that they believed is God gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, not God gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him for a while should not perish. Many who saw him and heard him believed in him for a while and then they fell away. They were not saved the moment they believed.

What? A believer is one who trusted in Christ and His work.

So you are telling me that you are not saved And you don't believe that you were saved the moment you trusted Christ?

 

[chessman]

I asked Oz:

Were the Jewish leaders ever saved, in your opinion?

You replied:

I see ...

Excellent. I'm glad you see that the Jewish leaders were not saved. They did not "receive" the gift of the Holy Spirit. Nor does Heb 6 say anything about receiving the Holy Spirit.

can you show us a scripture that says the Pharisee's who crucified Jesus, had received the Holy Spirit?

No, of course not. Nor can you. It didn't happen. You "receive" the gift of the Holy Spirit as a gift at repentance and baptism.

Acts 2:38 (NASB) Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.​

On the otherhand, the Jewish leaders were commanded to be partners with God in leading God's people. They'd failed at it, over and over. Their partnership with God in leading His people was coming to an end.

and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

This is not the same word (or meaning) as "received".

You receive a gift. (God "gave" His Son).

You partner at a job. (God partnered with the Jewish leaders to lead His people).

Luke 5:6-7 (NASB) When they had done this, they enclosed a great quantity of fish, and their nets began to break; so they signaled to their partners in the other boat for them to come and help them. And they came and filled both of the boats, so that they began to sink.​

Same word as Heb 6:4.

Deuteronomy 11:16-19, 22-23 (NASB) Beware that your hearts are not deceived, and that you do not turn away and serve other gods and worship them. Or the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you, and He will shut up the heavens so that there will be no rain and the ground will not yield its fruit; and you will perish quickly from the good land which the Lord is giving you. “You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. You shall teach them to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up. For if you are careful to keep all this commandment which I am commanding you to do, to love the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and hold fast to Him, then the Lord will drive out all these nations from before you, and you will dispossess nations greater and mightier than you.​

Like the Romans!
The Jewish leaders were supposed to, umm lead. And be in partnership with the Spirit of God to cultivate (till the soil) as God watered the ground to bear fruit. They failed and were about to get burned for it.

Hebrews 6:7-8 (NASB) For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. ​

And they did get burned in 70 A.D.

 

[OzSpen]

The Jewish leadership crucifed The Son of God (Christ) through the hands of the Romans.

The Jewish leaders were enlightened once and 'tasted' the heavenly gift "The Son of Man". Then they crucifed Him.

Were the Jewish leaders ever saved, in your opinion?

chessman,

The Hebrews, to whom the Book of Hebrews was addressed, were saved, according to Heb 6:1-3 (NIV), the verses immediately preceding Heb 6:4-6 (NIV) that warn about falling away from the faith:

Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so, Heb 6:1-3 (NIV).​

Oz