2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[OzSpen]

I said this:
"The only question is where does the Bible address how anyone who has been sealed can be unsealed (removal of the Holy Spirit).

FreeGrace,

The same principle applies as the word Trinity is not in the Bible but the teaching is there. The word, Bible, is not in Scripture, but the Bible is the name given to the collection of books that make up the canon of Scripture.

The word, 'unsealed' does not have to appear anywhere in Scripture for the teaching to be found there, as in Heb 6:4-6 (NIV) and 1 Tim 1:18-20 (NIV).

But you are not taking any notice.

'But the one who endures to the end will be saved', Matt 24:13 (NLT).

Oz

 

[FreeGrace]

If we "have believed" or if we "believe?"

To "have believed" refers to inital faith in the past. To "believe" is to currently believe. I'm making the point that the gift of eternal life is received at initial faith. Some people here claim only 'current belief' saves. One is saved at initial faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

Is that a yes or a no? I'm confused on what you believe.

Question was;

Can a believer do anything and still be sealed?

I find it an easy question to answer yes or no to, I figured you would too.

I thought Paul's writing about the sealing with the Holy Spirit was clear enough. The sealing is a guarantee for the day of redemption. So how can anything a believer does change that? I don't see how.

 

[FreeGrace]

If they fall away and they no longer believe, how can they be saved?

Because Jeus saved them WHEN they believed. John 5:24 says that those who believe HAVE eternal life. That means WHEN they believed.

I mean, if they reject the life giving word of God, then there is no life in them to save.

It isn't their faith that saves them. Jesus saves them. WHEN they believe.

Then, as Jesus said, they are gathered and burned. John 15:6

Not about loss of salvation.

Those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed. Isa. 1:28

Sure. Divine discipline does include "consuming", or physical death. And I don't mean dying in one's sleep either.

Just read 1 Cor 11:30 about God's discipline; weak, sickly, and death.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The only question is where does the Bible address how anyone who has been sealed can be unsealed (removal of the Holy Spirit).

FreeGrace,

The same principle applies as the word Trinity is not in the Bible but the teaching is there. The word, Bible, is not in Scripture, but the Bible is the name given to the collection of books that make up the canon of Scripture.

This is not a worthy argument.

The word, 'unsealed' does not have to appear anywhere in Scripture for the teaching to be found there, as in Heb 6:4-6 (NIV) and 1 Tim 1:18-20 (NIV).

The sealing with the Spirit is SPECIFICALLY described. And as a guarantee. So how could there be any unsealing. So much for the "guarantee" then. A guarantee means exactly what it is.

But you are not taking any notice.

What have I missed?

'But the one who endures to the end will be saved', Matt 24:13 (NLT).

Oz

Check the context. The Tribulation. Whatever that verse means, it refers to enduring the Tribulation.

 

[JLB]

I'm making the point that the gift of eternal life is received at initial faith.

Eternal life is for those who are "in Christ Jesus".

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

As long as we are "in Christ" and are joined to Him, we are joined to the eternal life that is "in Him".

Jesus makes this plain in John 15.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The way we come to be "in Christ" is to believe.
The way we remain "in Him", is to continue to believe.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2

Those who are "in Him", then later are removed from Him, no longer have access to the eternal life "in Him", they once had when they were joined to Him, just as a branch no longer has access to the life giving sustenance of the vine it was once connected to.



JLB

 

[chessman]

I asked:

Who crucifed the Son of God and subjected Him to public disgrace?

You replied without answering:

Your point?

I asked another question:

Were the Jewish leaders ever saved, in your opinion?

You replied without answering:

The Hebrews, to whom the Book of Hebrews was addressed, were saved

Are you aware of the logical fallacy called "Avoiding the issue" or "Evading the issue"?

Were the Jewish leaders who subjected The Son of God to public shame and crucifed Him saved, in your opinion?

 

[OzSpen]

But, what the Bible never even suggests, is that loss of faith equals loss of salvation. That has not been shown.

Please tell me how anyone can receive salvation without faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

'Nearly 200 times in the New Testament, faith (or belief) is declared to be the sole condition for salvation (John 1:12; Acts 16:31)' (GotQuestions?org) The logical conclusion of these verses is that if one does not believe or have faith, he/she cannot have salvation.

'And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him', Heb 11:6 (NIV).

Do you want to please God and believe in Christ for salvation? Do you want to lose salvation, then stop believing in Christ. That's the logical consequence of unbelief.

What could be clearer than Heb 3:12 (NIV)? 'See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God'.

An 'unbelieving heart' (one with loses faith) heart leads to the point where one 'turns away from the living God'. Loss of faith leads to loss of salvation because unbelief leads to turning away from God. Heb 6:4-6 (NIV) confirms this.

Oz

 

[JLB]

Excellent. I'm glad you see that the Jewish leaders were not saved. They did not "receive" the gift of the Holy Spirit. Nor does Heb 6 say anything about receiving the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 6 speaks of receiving the Holy Spirit, what is doesn't speak of is unsaved Jewish leaders.

• and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
• For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8


In addition it speaks of those who received the Gospel Message through repentance.

• and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
• if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God,

JLB

 

[OzSpen]

I mainly use blueletterbible.org. It has a couple lexicons in it.

Where do I find the lexicons used on that website? https://www.blueletterbible.org/

 

[chessman]

they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Who crucifed Christ and put Him to an open shame?

 

[OzSpen]

I asked:


You replied without answering:


I asked another question:


You replied without answering:


Are you aware of the logical fallacy called "Avoiding the issue" or "Evading the issue"?

Were the Jewish leaders who subjected The Son of God to public shame and crucifed Him saved, in your opinion?

I've already answered you in #200. I didn't find your other points relevant to the discussion.

 

[chessman]

I've already answered you in #200.

You answered a different question. One I did not ask, thus avoiding the one I did ask.

I didn't find your other points relevant to the discussion.

When Hebrews 6:6 says; "they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame"

You don't find it relevant to answer the question of who "they" are that crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame??? Interesting form of debate you've developed there.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Well, what is the message of truth that they believed?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

The message of truth that they believed is God gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, not God gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him for a while should not perish. Many who saw him and heard him believed in him for a while and then they fell away. They were not saved the moment they believed.

MarkT,

This is the Theology, it is based on scripture and one of the longest running debates OSAS or NOSAS. Your words, without scripture are nothing more that a tall tale. I base my stance one Matthew 13:1-23 and the account of the the soldier's entire household believing as well as the parable of the sower and the soils. What in scripture makes your tidbit, not false?

 

[JLB]

What? A believer is one who trusted in Christ and His work.

So you are telling me that you are not saved And you don't believe that you were saved the moment you trusted Christ?

Do you have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation?

If you do, then by default you have the hope of salvation, when He returns.

Faith is the substance, of the thing you are hoping for.

IOW faith is what you must have, until you obtain the thing you are hoping for.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

If you are hoping for salvation, because you have faith for salvation, then you have not obtained in reality, then salvation you are hoping for.

Paul explains:

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-24

If you have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then please continue to have faith in Christ for salvation, because without faith, [the substance of your hope for salvation] you will be just like those who never believed; with out faith, faithless.

The is no difference between a person who never had faith, and a person who no longer has faith, as they both have this in common: No Faith; Faithless.

A faithless person is a faithless person, is a faithless person.

The next thing I will ask you is: Do you faith work?

A faith that does not work, is a dead faith.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6


Example:

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Did you know this was an old testament example, that pictures our "initial salvation"?

Notice the key word in this phrase: obeyed.


That shows us a biblical example of a faith that works.



JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

If they fall away and they no longer believe, how can they be saved? I mean, if they reject the life giving word of God, then there is no life in them to save. Then, as Jesus said, they are gathered and burned. John 15:6

Those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed. Isa. 1:28

If they fall away, they did not believe as a small child. (Matt 18:3)

 

[OzSpen]

You answered a different question. One I did not ask, thus avoiding the one I did ask.

When Hebrews 6:6 says; "they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame"

You don't find it relevant to answer the question of who "they" are that crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame??? Interesting form of debate you've developed there.

In #200, I didn't answer a different question. I did not!

I answered one of the questions you asked: 'Were the Jewish leaders ever saved, in your opinion?'

Oz

 

[JLB]

This is not the same word (or meaning) as "received".

You receive a gift. (God "gave" His Son).

No, of course not. Nor can you. It didn't happen. You "receive" the gift of the Holy Spirit as a gift at repentance and baptism.

Hebrews 6 speaks of receiving the Holy Spirit, what is doesn't speak of is unsaved Jewish leaders.

• and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
• For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8


If I partake of a glass of water, by drinking it in, I am receiving the water into my body so that it will give me life, as my body is made up of 75% water, and without it I would die.


Coming to repentance through the Gospel message and receiving the Holy Spirit and producing fruit is what is being taught here in Hebrews 6.

• if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God,

JLB

 

[OzSpen]

If they fall away, they did not believe as a small child. (Matt 18:3)

Bill,

Matt 18:3 (NIV) states: 'And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven'. Jesus is using 'like little children' as a simile, a figure of speech.

Oz

 

[th1b.taylor]

Bill,

Matt 18:3 (NIV) states: 'And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven'. Jesus is using 'like little children' as a simile, a figure of speech.

Oz

That is one view, it is not mine. I do my best to live like a small child that is born of God. There is, literally, nothing in the Bible, I believe it... just as my babies believed anything they heard from me. I see this as what is meant by the verse.