2 Peter 2:21-22

[George Muller]

Of course many have and do return to the law, and this is why so many warnings are made of this very thing.

Ga 5:4

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (from grace to law)

Do you have any statistics on that? Like I say, I've only known of one person in all my 27 years of being a Christian that said they must keep the law of Moses to be declared righteous.

Now I know in the church many turn the duties of being a Christian--witnessing, reading your Bible, church attendance, etc.--into a kind of 'law' that they think makes them okay with God. That I see in the church, but not Christians keeping the law of Moses for the purpose of being justified. If you could provide some statistics about what denoms or sects believe that compared to all denoms that would be helpful.

I came to the conclusion many years ago that so much in the NT is dedicated to the problem of the Judaizers, not because many will continue to believe the law is how you are justified, but because the problem of thinking that your righteous obedience in general (church attendance, doing right, etc.) is what makes you right with God would persist in the church to the end. But the belief that the law of Moses was what justifies a person--no, that didn't last very long. The concept (being justified by what you do) did.

Well it is taught in many places, and even this forum in in large degree, our friend Elijah would most likely admit this in clear terms. If its no issue why debate against me? No this is "the issue" in the Church has been from the beginning and will be until the end. Satan hates grace and the law arms him against the Christian. Edited.

 

[George Muller]

There are two laws! Which one of the two is it that you speak of??

--Elijah

Not sure of your question? The law of Moses is "all things written in the book of the law" -every jot and tittle is the standard, and the law of Moses is not in two parts?

What is in two parts is seen in Deut. 31:9-10 & placed it in [the side] of, not inside of the Ark of God. Deut. 31:26-27 One is the Heb. 13:20 Covenant which God Himself wrote.

Much of Moses laws were finished as the Sanctuary separation (curtain) rent. Making way into the Most Holy Place where Christ is now doing His last work.
This was what the question was asking about which of the two laws was about.

I find much confusion about most of this.

--Elijah

Look "breaking" the law into parts is false doctrine. I uphold the true standard of the law "every jot and tittle" and "establish" the law and its true unbending standard.

Ro 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (this is the "way of righteousness" that Peter warns those who would return to the law)
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

 

[Elijah674]

God said it not me. What is in two parts is seen in Deut. 31:9-10 & placed it in [the side] of, not inside of the Ark of God. Deut. 31:26-27 One is the Heb. 13:20 Covenant which God Himself wrote.

Your [doctrine] is absolutely wrong!

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course many have and do return to the law, and this is why so many warnings are made of this very thing.

Ga 5:4

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (from grace to law)

Do you have any statistics on that? Like I say, I've only known of one person in all my 27 years of being a Christian that said they must keep the law of Moses to be declared righteous.

Now I know in the church many turn the duties of being a Christian--witnessing, reading your Bible, church attendance, etc.--into a kind of 'law' that they think makes them okay with God. That I see in the church, but not Christians keeping the law of Moses for the purpose of being justified. If you could provide some statistics about what denoms or sects believe that compared to all denoms that would be helpful.

I came to the conclusion many years ago that so much in the NT is dedicated to the problem of the Judaizers, not because many will continue to believe the law is how you are justified, but because the problem of thinking that your righteous obedience in general (church attendance, doing right, etc.) is what makes you right with God would persist in the church to the end. But the belief that the law of Moses was what justifies a person--no, that didn't last very long. The concept (being justified by what you do) did.

Well it is taught in many places, and even this forum in in large degree, our friend Elijah would most likely admit this in clear terms. If its no issue why debate against me? No this is "the issue" in the Church has been from the beginning and will be until the end. Satan hates grace and the law arms him against the Christian. This is why he attacks all those who teach the righteousness of faith as Paul taught.

Your thread would be more meaningful if you pointed toward the legalism in the church of church attendance, walking in one's gift(s), worship styles, pet doctrines, etc. Lots and lots of Christians think they are good with God because they believe correctly about these things. They think that is the 'having faith' that makes them okay with God.

But as it is, Christians who believe the Ten Commandments, specifically the Sabbath Command, is how one makes themselves righteous before God are few and far between. Unless you can prove me wrong. I'm guessing there is lots of statistical information on the internet about Christian denominations and what they believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...the righteousness of faith as Paul taught.

Righteousness by having faith does not mean you are declared righteous before God because you had the faith to heal somebody, or you had the faith to do right things, or had the faith to go to church, etc. It means having the faith that God can and will forgive you through the blood of Christ--Period.

That's why there's no boast of righteous work possible in faith being the way to the righteousness of Christ. But we see much boasting in the church of people who say what they do 'by faith' makes them righteous before God. That's nothing more than the Judaizer's argument according to present theology and doctrines of the church. It's still the damnable gospel of works righteousness. God did not give us the faith to believe so we can then earn our own justification by doing right things through that faith.

 

[JLB]

No the law is not sin, it holds people in bondage to sin "for the strength of sin is the law" And of course Peter is warning fellow Jews about turning back from faith " for the law is not of faith" The "way of righteousness" is the "righteousness of faith and Peter is warning those who would turn back to law, just as Paul did over and over.

This is not part of the subject matter, if you want to start a new thread about this subject matter then please do so.

"Having eyes full of adultery"- "spiritual adultery" Ro 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. "and that cannot cease from sin"- For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, "an heart they have exercised with covetous practices;"-Ro 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. ;" cursed children:"-Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Again, you are not discussing the subject matter.'

You are attempting to divert the subject by introducing other scriptures that are not part of the subject matter. Please stop trying to twist this into a debate about the law, and being justified by the law.

Use 2 Peter 2:21-22 or verses directly before or after to maintain the integrity of the subject matter.

2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

Eyes full of adultery - Lust of the eyes.

an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; desiring what others have.

Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh are things we are taught in the new testament to turn away from.


after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ... ie; born again and are free from the pollutions because they have been cleansed by the blood of the lamb.


they are again entangled in them and overcome...


OSAS is MYTH that has been BUSTED by God's holy word.

OSAS is a doctrine of man.


JLB

 

[CORE]

after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ... ie; born again and are free from the pollutions because they have been cleansed by the blood of the lamb.

Do you believe that one can be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb simply by having knowledge of Christ? - because that's what you seem to be implying.

There is a big difference between knowledge of Christ, and actual belief in Him...

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

It does not say "for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever has knowledge of him shall not perish but have eternal life."

 

[reba]

Some times I like the AMP a lot ...

16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([d]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

 

[JLB]

Do you believe that one can be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb simply by having knowledge of Christ? - because that's what you seem to be implying.

... they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I believe what Peter wrote here in this verse.

If you don't then that is between you and the Lord.


JLB

 

[CORE]

Do you believe that one can be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb simply by having knowledge of Christ? - because that's what you seem to be implying.

... they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I believe what Peter wrote here in this verse.

If you don't then that is between you and the Lord.


JLB

There is a difference between "escaping the pollutions of the world" and "being saved from the power and penalty of sin"

Many people have escaped the"pollutions of the world," like drug addictions through Christain rehab progams and attending Church service...some go onto be fruitful christians...others leave and never seemed to have believed and put their faith in Christ...and some return back to their addictions.

Kinda reminds me of the parable of the sower...

 

[JLB]

Do you believe that one can be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb simply by having knowledge of Christ? - because that's what you seem to be implying.

... they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I believe what Peter wrote here in this verse.

If you don't then that is between you and the Lord.


JLB

There is a difference between "escaping the pollutions of the world" and "being saved from the power and penalty of sin"

Many people have escaped the"pollutions of the world," like drug addictions through Christain rehab progams and attending Church service...some go onto be fruitful christians...others leave and never seemed to have believed and put their faith in Christ...and some return back to their addictions.

Kinda reminds me of the parable of the sower...

They escaped the pollutions of this world which is not sin?

Sorry brother, you are grasping at straws.

If you escape this worlds pollutions and are not born again, then getting entangled again is not the problem.


JLB

 

[Elijah674]

Are not they all!

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Kinda reminds me of the parable of the sower...

Yes...where Jesus said they believed for a little while but then fell away:

"13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Matthew 13:13 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They escaped the pollutions of this world ...

A.k.a. repentance.

 

[CORE]

Do you believe that one can be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb simply by having knowledge of Christ? - because that's what you seem to be implying.

... they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I believe what Peter wrote here in this verse.

If you don't then that is between you and the Lord.


JLB

There is a difference between "escaping the pollutions of the world" and "being saved from the power and penalty of sin"

Many people have escaped the"pollutions of the world," like drug addictions through Christain rehab progams and attending Church service...some go onto be fruitful christians...others leave and never seemed to have believed and put their faith in Christ...and some return back to their addictions.

Kinda reminds me of the parable of the sower...

They escaped the pollutions of this world which is not sin?

Sorry brother, you are grasping at straws.

If you escape this worlds pollutions and are not born again, then getting entangled again is not the problem.


JLB

I don't know if I'd say grasping for straws, just sincerely trying to understand and find practical examples of what the text is trying to say...but fair enough.

The context of the whole chapter is talking about false prophets/teachers...and it uses some very strong and horrific language against these false teachers. - I pray we never fall into a situation such as these men.

The verse that really caught my attention is 2 peter 2:1:
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."

It says these false teachers denied the Lord who bought them...Now this might actually lend some substance to the topic at hand. How is this possible? I look forward to studying it in depth...

But still...if one denies Christ, it's obvious you will not take part in the kingdom, nor do I think they would even care at that point.

 

[JLB]

It says these false teachers denied the Lord who bought them...Now this might actually lend some substance to the topic at hand. How is this possible? I look forward to studying it in depth...

Fair enough, we can study the elements of what is being said in context as you have pointed out.

But still...if one denies Christ, it's obvious you will not take part in the kingdom, nor do I think they would even care at that point.

Agreed. However I see an element of them believing the Gospel message with Joy, then later denying Him.

The other way is they never believed the Gospel, so denying Him is not the issue but rather unbelief of the Gospel message.

Like the sower and the seed.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you believe that one can be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb simply by having knowledge of Christ? - because that's what you seem to be implying.

... they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I believe what Peter wrote here in this verse.

If you don't then that is between you and the Lord.


JLB

There is a difference between "escaping the pollutions of the world" and "being saved from the power and penalty of sin"

Many people have escaped the"pollutions of the world," like drug addictions through Christain rehab progams and attending Church service...some go onto be fruitful christians...others leave and never seemed to have believed and put their faith in Christ...and some return back to their addictions.

Kinda reminds me of the parable of the sower...

Getting back to this verse and the meaning of through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9

the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ is the accumulation of the following traits, not just mere information - to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness,
and to brotherly kindness love.

This refers to someone born again and who has these traits as well as known the way of righteousness.


JLB

 

[CORE]

Kinda reminds me of the parable of the sower...

Yes...where Jesus said they believed for a little while but then fell away:

"13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Matthew 13:13 NASB)

But did they ever truly believe in their heart, or was it just superficial?

Romans 10:9
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[George Muller]

Your thread would be more meaningful if you pointed toward the legalism in the church of church attendance, walking in one's gift(s), worship styles, pet doctrines, etc. Lots and lots of Christians think they are good with God because they believe correctly about these things. They think that is the 'having faith' that makes them okay with God.

But as it is, Christians who believe the Ten Commandments, specifically the Sabbath Command, is how one makes themselves righteous before God are few and far between. Unless you can prove me wrong. I'm guessing there is lots of statistical information on the internet about Christian denominations and what they believe.

I can agree with some of your points, and there are many things one could find to debate within the "church" the issue that Paul taught in every epistle and the great warnings of the New Testament are in regards to legalism in all its forms. For the strength of sin is the law, and to purge the church from these others errors first requires that true and sound doctrine "the gospel of His Grace" be taught. As far as how many legalist and who holds what part of law here or there? Is clear to me, I doubt very much that one who promotes legalism would see any problem in legalism? So your point has no meaning to me, and the very fact that you and others strive against the doctrines of grace, prove the hold legalism has over many on this forum.

 

[George Muller]

God said it not me. What is in two parts is seen in Deut. 31:9-10 & placed it in [the side] of, not inside of the Ark of God. Deut. 31:26-27 One is the Heb. 13:20 Covenant which God Himself wrote.

Your [doctrine] is absolutely wrong!

--Elijah

I don't even know what point you think you are making, explain how the law is separated "broken" based on these scriptures?

Every Jot and tittle is the standard and no one can debate the clear words of the Lord, so you have a lot to prove in breaking the law into parts?