6-6-6 a Jewish number....?

[Georges]

6-6-6 It’s a Hebrew thing……..

1. The Book of Revelation is the most Hebraic book in the New Testament.

-Fact: Revelation has twice the amount of Jewish idioms than the other two “Jewish†books Matthew, and Hebrews combined. Matthew (96), Hebrews (86), Revelation (249).

2. The Book of Revelation originally written in Hebrew then translated to Greek.
-Supposition:
1. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, John to the Jews.
2. Jesus was a Jew and so was John…Would Jesus speak to John in Greek?
3. The Letters were addressed to Messianic Synagogues.

3. The number of the Beast in Revelation is 6-6-6.

-Supposition:
1. The Beast from the Sea is the Hebrew False Messiah.
2. The False Messiah has a Hebrew name with a Hebrew number.
3. The number of the Beast should be determined from Hebrew standards.

4. The number of the Pseudo (False) messiah is a counterfeit of the seal of the 144000.

-Supposition:
1. The 144000 (Messianic Jews) will be sealed with the name of God on their foreheads.
2. The seal of God will be his name…
3. Perhaps as a precursor, the Hasidic Jews of today use a tefillin while
worshipping God. This is a small box worn on the fore-head of the
worshipper. In the box contains scripture (Deut 6:4-8).
4. On the outside of the Box is a Hebrew letter in the shaped like a W (See the Hebrew letter under my name). This is the Hebrew letter “shinâ€Â, and is the first letter in God’s descriptive name of El Shaddai (God Almighty, or Almighty God).
5. The Hasidic Jews also wear a leather strap wrapped around their forearm, wrist, and hand. When wrapped properly, this also forms a "shin".

5. The number of the pseudo messiah will resemble the “Shin†therefore it will be a false shin.-Supposition:
1. The number of the beast will be a false “shinâ€Â.
2. The number of the false messiah should be 6-6-6.
3. In Hebrew, the letter associated with 6 is “vavâ€Â.
4. The “vav†looks like a staff with a crook on the end of it. Look at the “Shin†under my name….each leg of the “shin†look’s like a “vavâ€Â.
5. The Shin looks like 3 “Vavâ€Â’s tied together at the bottom.
6. The numbers 6-6-6 should be the letters Vav-Vav-Vav. They can be strung very close together (without touching each other) at the bottom to resemble a “Shinâ€Â.
7. The closeness of the 3 “Vavâ€Â’s strung together resembling the “Shin†will fool a lot of people into thinking they are receiving the same marks the 144000.
8. Many people may take the “False Shin†mark because they see that the 144000 (who have the “Real Shinâ€Â) have not been touched by the catastrophes of the Tribulation period.



Consider the possiblity.....

 

[JM]

6-6-6 It’s a Hebrew thing……..

1. The Book of Revelation is the most Hebraic book in the New Testament.

-Fact: Revelation has twice the amount of Jewish idioms than the other two “Jewish†books Matthew, and Hebrews combined. Matthew (96), Hebrews (86), Revelation (249).

2. The Book of Revelation originally written in Hebrew then translated to Greek.
-Supposition:
1. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, John to the Jews.
2. Jesus was a Jew and so was John…Would Jesus speak to John in Greek?
3. The Letters were addressed to Messianic Synagogues.

3. The number of the Beast in Revelation is 6-6-6.

-Supposition:
1. The Beast from the Sea is the Hebrew False Messiah.
2. The False Messiah has a Hebrew name with a Hebrew number.
3. The number of the Beast should be determined from Hebrew standards.

4. The number of the Pseudo (False) messiah is a counterfeit of the seal of the 144000.

-Supposition:
1. The 144000 (Messianic Jews) will be sealed with the name of God on their foreheads.
2. The seal of God will be his name…
3. Perhaps as a precursor, the Hasidic Jews of today use a tefillin while
worshipping God. This is a small box worn on the fore-head of the
worshipper. In the box contains scripture (Deut 6:4-8).
4. On the outside of the Box is a Hebrew letter in the shaped like a W (See the Hebrew letter under my name). This is the Hebrew letter “shinâ€Â, and is the first letter in God’s descriptive name of El Shaddai (God Almighty, or Almighty God).
5. The Hasidic Jews also wear a leather strap wrapped around their forearm, wrist, and hand. When wrapped properly, this also forms a "shin".

5. The number of the pseudo messiah will resemble the “Shin†therefore it will be a false shin.-Supposition:
1. The number of the beast will be a false “shinâ€Â.
2. The number of the false messiah should be 6-6-6.
3. In Hebrew, the letter associated with 6 is “vavâ€Â.
4. The “vav†looks like a staff with a crook on the end of it. Look at the “Shin†under my name….each leg of the “shin†look’s like a “vavâ€Â.
5. The Shin looks like 3 “Vavâ€Â’s tied together at the bottom.
6. The numbers 6-6-6 should be the letters Vav-Vav-Vav. They can be strung very close together (without touching each other) at the bottom to resemble a “Shinâ€Â.
7. The closeness of the 3 “Vavâ€Â’s strung together resembling the “Shin†will fool a lot of people into thinking they are receiving the same mark as the 144000.
8. Many people may take the “False Shin†mark because they see that the 144000 (who have the “Real Shinâ€Â) have not been touched by the catastrophes of the Tribulation period.



Consider the possiblity.....

Considering the Old Covenant has passed away (a type of the New to come), and we are now followers of Christ (the fulfillment of that OT type), the emphasis is on the Spiritual life and not the earthly "Hebraic" life. Ask yourself, what was the true meaning of life God wanted for His people in the OT?

G, did you know some dispensationalists believe your correct and say the raptuer happens before Revelations even starts? Both the dispensationalist and your view are more considered with the phyiscal aspects of the faith walk.

peace,
j

 

[Georges]

[quote="JM
Considering the Old Covenant has passed away (a type of the New to come), and we are now followers of Christ (the fulfillment of that OT type), the emphasis is on the Spiritual life and not the earthly "Hebraic" life. Ask yourself, what was the true meaning of life God wanted for His people in the OT?

JM, where does it say the Old Covenant has passed away?.....Is there a verse that says that?......I think you will find that even though it is a common conception...there really is no passage indicating that the OC has passed....completely.....
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Note: Ready....to vanish away. Hebrews was written well after the crucifixion and resurrection. The OC is ready to vanish away, but will remain here in part until the Messianic kingdom. That is when the NC will fully be realized.

G, did you know some dispensationalists believe your correct and say the raptuer happens before Revelations even starts?

I don't know about that...At this time I support a future preWrath rapture. I believe that Revelation began with Johns vision and Chapters 1-3 having occurred or are occurring. Chapter 4 is in the future.

Both the dispensationalist and your view are more considered with the phyiscal aspects of the faith walk.

I don't know about that.....Faith is Faith and should be both physical and spiritual...wouldn't you agree....

peace,
j[/quote]

JM....Thanks for the post, but have you considered the "Shin" and the "Vav" possiblities for the mark of a Hebrew false messiah?

 

[preterist]

JM, where does it say the Old Covenant has passed away?.....Is there a verse that says that?......I think you will find that even though it is a common conception...there really is no passage indicating that the OC has passed....completely.....
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Note: Ready....to vanish away. Hebrews was written well after the crucifixion and resurrection. The OC is ready to vanish away, but will remain here in part until the Messianic kingdom. That is when the NC will fully be realized.

Oh my.

 

[Georges]

JM, where does it say the Old Covenant has passed away?.....Is there a verse that says that?......I think you will find that even though it is a common conception...there really is no passage indicating that the OC has passed....completely.....
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Note: Ready....to vanish away. Hebrews was written well after the crucifixion and resurrection. The OC is ready to vanish away, but will remain here in part until the Messianic kingdom. That is when the NC will fully be realized.

Oh my.

Yeh....like I said something really stupid.....sorry, but that's what it says....unless you want to read something that's not there....

Old Covenant not yet fully passed away.....New Covenant not yet fully realized.....Both coexisting.....Oh My! :wink:

 

[preterist]

Hebrews was written just before AD70. Let that sink in for a bit.


Secondly, you won't find any credible theologian who believes the Old Covenant is still in effect. This sounds much like dual covenant theology pushed by hyper dispies such as John Hagee. They teach Jews can still be saved apart from Christ.


The Old and New Covenant co-existed for a very short period.(40 years). Not the entire Church Age.

In this case, I would like to see the web-site where you read this garbage.

 

[JM]

Hebrews was written just before AD70. Let that sink in for a bit.


Secondly, you won't find any credible theologian who believes the Old Covenant is still in effect. This sounds much like dual covenant theology pushed by hyper dispies such as John Hagee. They teach Jews can still be saved apart from Christ.


The Old and New Covenant co-existed for a very short period.(40 years). Not the entire Church Age.

In this case, I would like to see the web-site where you read this garbage.

I notice a close connection between the Hebrew stuff G comes up with and the dispensationalist view, the only difference I can see is the removal of the Church by the rapture AND then, the Jewish Church kick's back in. The Old has been done away with.

 

[Georges]

Do you boy's want to comment on the subject line?

In my experience in every prophecy forum....(and why Preterist's post on them I'll never know) I ever been on, I find that Preterist's are very good at derailing thread matter. This Thread is no different. Deflect and derail....

I will address Both comments in another thread...I'll even start it....

 

[Skipdawg]

Old and New Covenants are not a very good portrayal actually.

I feel if you look at what they are. Covenant, Testament, or contract they are a Physical Contract (The Law) and the Spiritual Contract (Salvation)

Which helps it make more since when you recall that the New is the fulfillment of the Old. Just my thoughts on this.

 

[preterist]

I find that Preterist's are very good at derailing thread matter. This Thread is no different. Deflect and derail....

I just responded to your statement. So evidently you de-railed it.

 

[preterist]

3. The Letters were addressed to Messianic Synagogues.

No, they were written to the Churches of Asia:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia.

You should really read through the material before you cut and paste it.

1.The Beast from the Sea is the Hebrew False Messiah.

Any proof other than a web-site?

2.The number of the Beast should be determined from Hebrew standards.

Its called gematria. Nero fits it perfectly.

I could go on but whats the use.

 

[Georges]

3. The Letters were addressed to Messianic Synagogues.

No, they were written to the Churches of Asia:

That's right....guess what....? The Churches of that time were synagogues.....the term Church used to separated believing Jews from unbelieving Jews.....the Gentile Christians hadn't taken over until later...If you do a word study on Synagogue and Church they have the same definitions.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia.

You should really read through the material before you cut and paste it.

My own words....my friend....years of studying the material and an ability to recall...

[quote:ac7fa]1.The Beast from the Sea is the Hebrew False Messiah.

Any proof other than a web-site?

Yeh.....you can do the leg work though, I've posted the info on different threads on the subject of the AC....research the Rabbinical meaning of the Leviathan and all of it's aspects....

2.The number of the Beast should be determined from Hebrew standards.

And...ah....how many websites do you use in your research?....Am I dealing with a teenager?.....Really....are you goofing with me? :


Its called gematria. Nero fits it perfectly.

Oh...I know what it is called.....thanks for throwing the term out there....now be a little more productive and post how Nero fits so everyone can see....I at least presented a description of the alphanumerics of the mark.....

Oh I forgot to ask......I can't recall when everyone in the world recieved a mark on their forehead and/or hand.....when did that happen? It hasn't yet.

I could go on but whats the use.

I agree....but somehow I think you will....

[/quote:ac7fa]

 

[Georges]

I find that Preterist's are very good at derailing thread matter. This Thread is no different. Deflect and derail....

I just responded to your statement. So evidently you de-railed it.

Opps, yeh I did....in a round about way......Oh well, back to the subject at hand.....

Please post the breakdown of Nero and how Hebraically, his name and number match....also how everyone on Earth recieved his mark on their hands or foreheads....

Thanks....

 

[goingupupup]

Hi all, I am fairly new to this forum, I don't know why the preterist want to say that it all was over at 70 AD there is so much left and I can't see the logic used to settle these issues, but why they deny this is more like a denial of prophecy unfolding today, what has been happening since 70AD I would like to ask if it is all said and done, when did we receive the mark of the beast, when did the tribulation happen, when did Christ return, are we living in the kingdom now, and where is satan now, when did we fight the last war of Revelations, how do you explain bible predicting the Jews reformation to their homeland in 1948, I could go on and on with many questions for the preterists but lets just start with these, I have already dealt with a lot of the issues that I am asking here, I have exchanged ideas back and forth with preterism members on other sites and I have seen the many opinions on prophecy and the bible and Israel and the Jews and it is nonsense and they have never to been able to satisfy these questions without twisting scripture out of context. I am probably opening a can of worms here but why leave the lid when we have scripture to dig into to find the truth.

 

[preterist]

That's right....guess what....? The Churches of that time were synagogues.....the term Church used to separated believing Jews from unbelieving Jews.....the Gentile Christians hadn't taken over until later...If you do a word study on Synagogue and Church they have the same definitions.

Then why not call them churches as Paul and John did. I think you refer to them as “Messianic Synagogues†for a particular reason.

My own words....my friend....years of studying the material and an ability to recall...

You still think Revelation was written in Hebrew?

Quote:
1.The Beast from the Sea is the Hebrew False Messiah.


Any proof other than a web-site?

Yeh.....you can do the leg work though, I've posted the info on different threads on the subject of the AC....research the Rabbinical meaning of the Leviathan and all of it's aspects....

I meant scriptural proof. Opinions are fine, but they are just that. Is your opinion based on scripture or history, or is it based on someones opinion of what 666 means? I remember Reagan and Henry Kissinger were suppose to be the 666. So opinions are a dime a dozen.

Oh I forgot to ask......I can't recall when everyone in the world recieved a mark on their forehead and/or hand.....when did that happen? It hasn't yet.

Let me quote you/web-site:

Fact: Revelation has twice the amount of Jewish idioms than the other two “Jewish†books Matthew, and Hebrews combined. Matthew (96), Hebrews (86), Revelation (249).

Idioms are a figure of speech. If you wish to understand the symbols used in Revelation, you must first go to the OT and see their meaning there.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
Deu 6:5 And you shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Deu 6:6 And these words which I command you this day shall be in your heart.
Deu 6:7 And you shall carefully teach them to your sons, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.
Deu 6:8 And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

Deu 11:18 Therefore you shall lay up these my words in your hearts and in your souls, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, so that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

It is symbolic of allegiance to Rome.

Please post the breakdown of Nero and how Hebraically, his name and number match....also how everyone on Earth recieved his mark on their hands or foreheads....

Ancient numbering systems used an alpha-numeric method. This is true of the Latin (Roman) system that is still common today: I=1, V=5, X=10, L=50, C=100, D=500, M=1000. Greek and Hebrew follow a similar method where each letter of their alphabets represents a number. The first nine letters represent 1–9.3 The tenth letter represents 10, with the nineteenth letter representing 100 and so on. Since the Book of Revelation is written in a Hebrew context by a Jew with numerous allusions to the Old Testament, we should expect the solution to deciphering the meaning of six hundred and sixty-six to be Hebraic. "The reason clearly is that, while [John] writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew, and the thought has naturally affected the vehicle of expression."


When Nero Caesar's name is transliterated into Hebrew, which a first-century Jew would probably have done, he would have gotten Neron Kesar or simply nrwn qsr, since Hebrew has no letters to represent vowels. “It has been documented by archaeological finds that a first century Hebrew spelling of Nero's name provides us with precisely the value of 666. Jastrow's lexicon of the Talmud contains this very spelling.

When we take the letters of Nero's name and spell them in Hebrew, we get the following numeric values: n=50, r=200, w=6, n=50, q=100, s=60, r=200 = 666. “Every Jewish reader, of course, saw that the Beast was a symbol of Nero. And both Jews and Christians regarded Nero as also having close affinities with the serpent or dragon. . . . The Apostle writing as a Hebrew, was evidently thinking as a Hebrew. . . . Accordingly, the Jewish Christian would have tried the name as he thought of the nameâ€â€that is in Hebrew letters. And the moment that he did this the secret stood revealed. No Jew ever thought of Nero except as ‘Neron Kesar.

A fragment from the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament shows that the number of the Beast of Revelation 13 is 616. Ellen Aitken, a professor of early Christian history at McGill University, states that “the majority opinion seems to be that it refers to [the Roman emperor] Nero.†The early fragment supports the view that Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and whether the number is 666 or 616, the number is a reference to Nero and not some end-time antichrist figure.

 

[preterist]

when did we receive the mark of the beast,

You didn’t. see above.

when did the tribulation happen,

AD66-AD70.

Adam Barnes Commentary:

Mat 24:21 -
There shall be great tribulation - The word “tribulation†means calamity or “suffering.†Luke Luk_21:24 has specified in what this tribulation would consist: “They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.†That is, until the time allotted for the Gentiles “to do it†shall be fully accomplished, or as long as God is pleased to suffer them to do it.
The first thing mentioned by Luke is, that they should fall “by the edge of the sword†- that is, would be slain in war, as the sword was then principally used in war. This was most strikingly fulfilled. Josephus, in describing it, uses almost the very words of our Saviour. “All the calamities, says he, which had befallen any nation from the beginning of the world†were but small in comparison with those of the Jews. - Jewish Wars, b. i. preface, section 4.

He has given the following account of one part of the massacre when the city was taken: “And now, rushing into the city, they slew whomsoever they found, without distinction, and burned the houses and all the people who had fled into them; and when they entered for the sake of plunder, they found whole families of dead persons, and houses full of carcasses destroyed by famine, then they came out with their hands empty. And though they thus pitied the dead, they had not the same emotion for the living, but killed all they met, whereby they filled the lanes with dead bodies. “The whole city ran with blood,†insomuch that many things which were burning were extinguished by the blood.†- “Jewish Wars,†b. 6 chapter 8, section 5; chapter 9, section 2, 3. He adds that in the siege of Jerusalem not fewer than “eleven hundred thousand†perished (Jewish Wars, b. 6 chapter 9, section 3) - a number almost half as great as are in the whole city of London. In the adjacent provinces no fewer than “two hundred and fifty thousand†are reckoned to have been slain; making in all whose deaths were ascertained the almost incredible number of “one million three hundred and fifty thousand†who were put to death.
These were not, indeed, all slain with the sword. Many were crucified. “Many hundreds,†says Josephus (“Jewish Wars,†b. v. chapter 11, section 1), “were first whipped, then tormented with various kinds of tortures, and finally crucified; the Roman soldiers nailing them (out of the wrath and hatred they bore to the Jews), one after one way and another after another, to crosses, “by way of jest,†until at length the multitude became so great that room was lacking for crosses, and crosses for the bodies.†So terribly was their imprecation fulfilled - “his blood be on us and on our children,†Mat_27:25. If it be asked how it was possible for so many people to be slain in a single city, it is to be remembered that the siege of Jerusalem commenced during the time of the Passover, when all the males of the Jews were required to be there, and when it is estimated that more than “three million†were usually assembled. See Josephus, Jewish Wars, b. 6 chapter 9, section 3, 4.

A horrible instance of the distress of Jerusalem is related by Josephus. The famine during the siege became so great that they ate what the most sordid animals refused to touch. A woman of distinguished rank, having been plundered by the soldiers, in hunger, rage, and despair, killed and roasted her own babe, and had eaten one half of it before the deed was discovered. - Jewish Wars, b. 6 chapter 3, section 3, 4. This cruel and dreadful act was also in fulfillment of prophecy, Deu_28:53, Deu_28:56-57.
Another thing added by Luke Luk_21:24, was, that “they should be led away captive into all nations.†Josephus informs us that the captives taken during the whole war amounted to “ninety-seven thousand.†The tall and handsome young men Titus reserved for triumph; of the rest, many were distributed through the Roman provinces to be destroyed by wild beasts in theaters; many were sent to the works in Egypt; many, especially those under seventeen years of age, were sold for slaves. - Jewish Wars, b. vi. chapter 9, section 2, 3.


C.H. Spurgeon (1888)
For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred." (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412,413)


Philip Schaff (1877)
"The forbearance of God with his covenant people, who had crucified their own Saviour, reached it last its limit. As many as could be saved in the usual way, were rescued. The mass of the people had obstinately set themselves against all improvement. James the Just, the man who was fitted, if any could be, to reconcile the Jews to the Christian religion, had been stoned by his hardened brethren, for whom he daily interceded in the temple; and with him the Christian community in Jerusalem had lost its importance for that city. The hour of the "great tribulation" and fearful judgment drew near. The prophecy of the Lord approached its literal fulfilment: Jerusalem was razed to the ground, the temple burned, and not one stone was left upon another. ( History of the Christian Church p. 397-398)"


The real question is why do you assume it is future when Jesus said it would occur in the lifetime of His audience:

Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.

when did Christ return,

In AD70. Unless one is a partial-preterist.

Jesus told Caiaphus and the Sanhedrin they would see it. Was Jesus wrong?


Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, You said it. I tell you more. From this time you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of the heavens.

Was James also leading his audience astray:

Jam 5:8 You also be patient, establish your hearts, for the coming of your Lord draws near.

are we living in the kingdom now,

Yes. John tells us when it would come:

Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.

See Daniel 2 to see when the time would be fulfilled. The Kingdom came right on time.

Jesus tells us what kind of Kingdom it is:

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Believers were being pressed into it in the 1st century:

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

and where is satan now,

Seems to be destroyed.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

when did we fight the last war of Revelations,

It’s Revelation, not Revelations. You didn’t fight the war.

how do you explain bible predicting the Jews reformation to their homeland in 1948,

It is you who must explain this, not preterist. Just where is this found, Jews returning to their land in unbelief?

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Georges]

That's right....guess what....? The Churches of that time were synagogues.....the term Church used to separated believing Jews from unbelieving Jews.....the Gentile Christians hadn't taken over until later...If you do a word study on Synagogue and Church they have the same definitions.

Then why not call them churches as Paul and John did. I think you refer to them as “Messianic Synagogues†for a particular reason.

Here is a good example why.....

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews], and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

...say they are Jews....Indicates these claim to be Torah observant "Christian" men.
...and are not.....Indicates they do not follow Torah (i.e. They observe Pauline Christianity).
...synagogue of Satan...Indicates they are Jewish believers who have forsaken Torah....perhaps succumbing to Paul's anti Torah philosophy...?

The Greek translation is trying to make distinction. Before AD 90 (the penning of Revelation), the Church was made up mainly of Jewish believers....After the destruction of the Temple at 70AD, the Church at Jerusalem was forced to move....and with the deaths of the Apostles the leadership, the believing population shifted toward the Gentile dominance and Pauline Christianity (or what it was beginning to develope into).

The distinction of the translation....Messianic Jewish/Gentile (Torah observant) Believers as the Church (Greek word)...Messianic Jewish/Gentile (non-Torah observant) believers are of the Synagogue of Satan....Both meet in a Synagogue (as a meeting place, and as was the common practice of early Christians).


[quote:edd88]My own words....my friend....years of studying the material and an ability to recall...

You still think Revelation was written in Hebrew?

Originally yes......As I had presented and as the studies indicate...Revelation has twice the Jewish idioms and references than Matthew and Hebrews combined...Jesus is Jewish, John is Jewish. According to the letters, God is trying to get the Church of Asia minor to return to it's first love....that is Torah. Ever wonder why the letters are addressed to the Churches that Paul founded? Why haven't any of the Churches that the other Apostles founded addressed?

Quote:
1.The Beast from the Sea is the Hebrew False Messiah.


Any proof other than a web-site?

Yeh.....you can do the leg work though, I've posted the info on different threads on the subject of the AC....research the Rabbinical meaning of the Leviathan and all of it's aspects....

I meant scriptural proof. Opinions are fine, but they are just that. Is your opinion based on scripture or history, or is it based on someones opinion of what 666 means? I remember Reagan and Henry Kissinger were suppose to be the 666. So opinions are a dime a dozen.

You are right.....it's all speculation.....but, you have to go with what you feel is the best interpretation....For me, the Jewish/Hebrew interpretation works best and answers, generally, most of the questions. As far as 6-6-6, it is purely speculation....and logic.

Here is an example of the way I perceive that....

1. The Jews expect a 1000 year period of Messianic rule. This is based on the Rabbinical interpretation of the 7 day creation week. 6 days work 1 day rest. 6000 years of work, 1000 years of rest.
2. The Jews expect Elijah to announce the coming of the Messiah and usher in the Messianic kingdom period.
3. In the Book of Revelation, The Beast from the Sea appears....Since the Book of Revelation is the most Jewish book in the NT, it must be interpreted in Jewish terms using Jewish methods. The Beast from the Sea is the Leviathan found in the OT...but you have too do the research to know that the Leviathan in the OT in Jewish mythology is a 7 headed sea beast. An in depth study shows that the Leviathan of the OT is equated with Pharaoh and Egypt...the terminology used to compare Pharaoh/Egypt with the Future AC and his reign.
4. Just as the Jews expect Elijah to announce Messiah, the false prophet will announce the future False Messiah.
5. Since as indicated, the 144000 believers in Messiah will receive a mark (name of God) on their foreheads, so too will the followers of the False messiah will receive the false mark. This false mark must resemble the true mark. The false mark of the false messiah must resemble the true mark of the 144000. Some people will be fooled into taking the false mark, some will not.
6. Since as the pattern of 7's in the Bible is obviously a pattern of God's timeline (i.e. the 7 day week), we know through Bible chronology and History itself that since Adam, about 6000 years have past. We are very close to the last 1000 year period, or the Messianic kingdom period.

Jewish eschatology fits the patterns set....the mark of the False messiah as a false mark of God. It must be close in resemblance to the mark on the 144000. Nero doesn't translate to "Almighty God" in Hebrew.....El Shaddai (S being the Hebrew letter "Shin") is the best candidate for the mark on the 144000, the false "shin" ( 3 vav's (6's)) strung together resembles the "shin".

Oh I forgot to ask......I can't recall when everyone in the world recieved a mark on their forehead and/or hand.....when did that happen? It hasn't yet.

Let me quote you/web-site:

Fact: Revelation has twice the amount of Jewish idioms than the other two “Jewish†books Matthew, and Hebrews combined. Matthew (96), Hebrews (86), Revelation (249).

Idioms are a figure of speech. If you wish to understand the symbols used in Revelation, you must first go to the OT and see their meaning there.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
Deu 6:5 And you shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Deu 6:6 And these words which I command you this day shall be in your heart.
Deu 6:7 And you shall carefully teach them to your sons, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.
Deu 6:8 And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

Preterist.....This is the most important verse in Judaism.....As it started with Moses and is practiced today, Jews obey this commandment.....Sorry to use this website....but I have to to explain Deu 6:8:
Phylacteries, as universally used at the present time, consist of two leathern boxesâ€â€one worn on the arm and known as "shel yad" (Men. iv. 1) or "shelzeroa'" (Miḳ. x. 3), and the other worn on the head and known as "shel rosh"â€â€made of the skins of clean animals (Men. 42b; Sanh. 48b; "Yad," l.c. iii. 15).

and....

The box containing the head-phylactery has on the outside the letter ש, both to the right (with three strokes: ש) and to the left (with four strokes: ש; Men. 35a; comp. Tos., s.v. "Shin"; probably as a reminder to insure the correct insertion of the four Biblical passages); and this, together with the letters formed by the knots of the two straps, make up the letters of the Hebrew word "Shaddai" ( = "Almighty," one of the names of God; Men. 35b; Rashi, s.v. "Ḳesher")

and...

Each box contains the four Scriptural passages Ex. xiii. 1-10, 11-16; Deut. vi. 4-9, xi. 13-21

Deu 11:18 Therefore you shall lay up these my words in your hearts and in your souls, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, so that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

It is symbolic of allegiance to Rome.

...It is practiced by Jews as obedience and allegiance to God....again notice the "Shin" as being the name of God...and the coincidence with the name of God being placed on the foreheads of the 144000.

Please post the breakdown of Nero and how Hebraically, his name and number match....also how everyone on Earth recieved his mark on their hands or foreheads....

Ancient numbering systems used an alpha-numeric method. This is true of the Latin (Roman) system that is still common today: I=1, V=5, X=10, L=50, C=100, D=500, M=1000. Greek and Hebrew follow a similar method where each letter of their alphabets represents a number. The first nine letters represent 1–9.3 The tenth letter represents 10, with the nineteenth letter representing 100 and so on. Since the Book of Revelation is written in a Hebrew context by a Jew with numerous allusions to the Old Testament, we should expect the solution to deciphering the meaning of six hundred and sixty-six to be Hebraic. "The reason clearly is that, while [John] writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew, and the thought has naturally affected the vehicle of expression."


When Nero Caesar's name is transliterated into Hebrew, which a first-century Jew would probably have done, he would have gotten Neron Kesar or simply nrwn qsr, since Hebrew has no letters to represent vowels. “It has been documented by archaeological finds that a first century Hebrew spelling of Nero's name provides us with precisely the value of 666. Jastrow's lexicon of the Talmud contains this very spelling.

When we take the letters of Nero's name and spell them in Hebrew, we get the following numeric values: n=50, r=200, w=6, n=50, q=100, s=60, r=200 = 666. “Every Jewish reader, of course, saw that the Beast was a symbol of Nero. And both Jews and Christians regarded Nero as also having close affinities with the serpent or dragon. . . . The Apostle writing as a Hebrew, was evidently thinking as a Hebrew. . . . Accordingly, the Jewish Christian would have tried the name as he thought of the nameâ€â€that is in Hebrew letters. And the moment that he did this the secret stood revealed. No Jew ever thought of Nero except as ‘Neron Kesar.

A fragment from the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament shows that the number of the Beast of Revelation 13 is 616. Ellen Aitken, a professor of early Christian history at McGill University, states that “the majority opinion seems to be that it refers to [the Roman emperor] Nero.†The early fragment supports the view that Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and whether the number is 666 or 616, the number is a reference to Nero and not some end-time antichrist figure.

Thanks for the information, especially for presenting it in a hebrew and not greek setting...However, it is still speculative at best for the very reason that the author is assuming that every Jew would have known Nero as .....still I will research the

1. The Jews, Messianic Jews, and yes even the early (post Nero) Church father's considered the AC (False messiah) to be still in the future...
2. The criteria (Footsteps of the Messiah) that would lead to the literal, physical Messianic Kingdom (the last 1000 years of the 7000). This is another concept that both the Jews, Messianic Jews, and early (post Nero)Christian Church Fathers had.
3. And most important the False or Pseudoness of the situation....Nero wasn't a "replacement" Christ. He didn't promote or try to convince the "Jewish people" that he was the God of Abraham. He might have tried to convince his own countrymen that, but not the Jews or Messianic Christians. therefore the False messiah and his mark are reserved as a future event.
4. Oh yeah...I can't forget the biggest thorn in the side of preterism....that being Revelation as being written in 90 AD and not pre 70AD.


[/quote:edd88]

Again, thanks for the Nero/number stuff.

 

[Vic C.]

I am probably opening a can of worms here but why leave the lid when we have scripture to dig into to find the truth.

Heh, you wouldn't be the first. :wink:

BTW, welcome to the Forums. :-D

Vic

 

[preterist]

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews], and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

...say they are Jews....Indicates these claim to be Torah observant "Christian" men.
...and are not.....Indicates they do not follow Torah (i.e. They observe Pauline Christianity).
...synagogue of Satan...Indicates they are Jewish believers who have forsaken Torah....perhaps succumbing to Paul's anti Torah philosophy...?

Am I understanding you to say Paul was a false teacher?

Secondly, can Jews get to heaven outside of Christ?

 

[preterist]

4. Oh yeah...I can't forget the biggest thorn in the side of preterism....that being Revelation as being written in 90 AD and not pre 70AD.

Still waiting on proof.