P
preterist
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Care to show these OT references?
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Care to show these OT references?
P
preterist
Guest
preterist said:
So I guess I'm not going to get an answer. So I must speculate why you didn't answer. Perhaps you can't find any references to the above in the OT. In fact, the belief in a rapture comes from Paul's letters. Yet you claim Paul had his own agenda and was perhaps a false teacher. You claim the OT is all you need, yet you have an eschatological sysatem built around Paul's teaching. So you don't answer the question because you can't.
goingupupup is now goinggoinggone. He likewise won't answer my questions concerning Ezekiel 37. This is what happens when you have web-site theology.
Vic C.
Member
I too believe in a prewrath gathering of NT saints, based on us being promised this:
1 Thess 5:9
Revelation 6:17
I don't believe in a secret rapture. This gathering is also based on where one places God's Wrath and what is considered God's Wrath, so I won't speculate. Not much is said about a gathering of NT saints in the OT for obvious reasons.
I guess if we were dispense of the word "rapture" and concentrate on the harpazio and parousia, we could forego all the word semantics. It seems to me the OT and NT combined speak of two main gatherings; one for the NT believers (us-harpazio) and one for Israel (Second Coming-His actual reappearing on Earth). Like I said above, I don't care to speculate when the first gathering is but I do believe it's not imminent and well into the Great Tribulation and just prior to the Angelic Trumpets.
1 Thess 5:9
Revelation 6:17
I don't believe in a secret rapture. This gathering is also based on where one places God's Wrath and what is considered God's Wrath, so I won't speculate. Not much is said about a gathering of NT saints in the OT for obvious reasons.
I guess if we were dispense of the word "rapture" and concentrate on the harpazio and parousia, we could forego all the word semantics. It seems to me the OT and NT combined speak of two main gatherings; one for the NT believers (us-harpazio) and one for Israel (Second Coming-His actual reappearing on Earth). Like I said above, I don't care to speculate when the first gathering is but I do believe it's not imminent and well into the Great Tribulation and just prior to the Angelic Trumpets.
G
goingupupup
Guest
preterist said:
goingupupup is not gone, the only way I'll be gone is when the dear Lord decides it time for rapture or my number is up, My whole household has been sick with a terrible flu/cold and I am nursing a spouse back to health and a 93 year old aunt that lives with us and now has been diagnosed with infection in her right lung, I also have been in bed for 4 days and only been able to wait on them, between throwing up and taking coughing fits, so this forum has not been on my list of priorities, when I get feeling better I will be back to answer you question, I hope this don't sound harsh or cranky as I don't intend it to be that way just keeping you informed that I am not ignoring you just not well enough to post too much, please say a prayer for me and my family as I am sure only God can heal this crazy sickness, in all my lifetime I have never seen anything as harsh as this illness,
God Bless and I hope be feeling well to back here soon
G
Georges
Guest
preterist said:
I really don't want to engage Preterist in the thread again (waste of time) but I will show OT references to the Pre wrath rapture for those who may get something out of it....I will state that it may be a pre trib rapture reference also....either way...there is a rapture of some type before the heaviest tribulation occcurs...
The key to understanding the Rapture passages is,
1st.....Understanding the Jewish Feast day sequence
2nd...Understanding the sequence of events of the Jewish wedding ceremony.
It is all in reference to Rosh Hashanah, Yamim Noraim, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot.....the Fall Feast Days of the Lord and the timeline for the second coming of Messiah...
Terms....Rosh HaShanah - Feast of Trumpets - Rapture
Yamin Noraim - Days of Awe (Days of repentance between Rh and Yk). - Tribulation period, or the last days of the Trib period.
Yom Kippur - Atonement - 2nd coming of Messiah.
Sukkot - Feast of Tabernacles - Messianic Kingdom.
I will present Joel 2 and Isa 27 & 28 in reference to the Feast days in order and color....
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;
This verse is a reference to the Feast of Trumpets, a yearly call to repentance before the solemn day of Yom Kippur...
In Judaism...these idioms are associated with Rosh Hashanah...in other words..if any one of these themes were mentioned, it would be known the speaker was referring to Rosh Hashanah....
1. Repentance (Teshuvah)
2. Head of the Year, Birthday of the World (Rosh HaShanah)
3. The Day of the Awakening Blast (Yom Teruah)
4. The Day of Judgment (Yom HaDin)
5. The Coronation of the Messiah (HaMelech)
6. The Day of Remembrance (Yom HaZikkaron)
7. The time of Jacob's trouble (The birthpangs of the Messiah, Chevlai shel Mashiach)
8.The opening of the gates
9. The wedding ceremony (Kiddushin/Nesu’in)
10.The resurrection of the dead (rapture, natza1)
11.The last trump (shofar)
12. The hidden day (Yom Haskeseh)
Revelation 4 is the reference for this verse....
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, [even] to the years of many generations.
Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and [when] they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
This set of verses are parled in Rev 9. These are the Days of Awe which in Judaism is the time period between RH and YK. This is the time period in which men have a final chance to repent of their sins..
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
This is not the army referred to in verses Joel 2:2-10 (Rev 9). This is the army that accompanies Christ back upon his return (Rev 19).
Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Joe 2:14 Who knoweth [if] he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; [even] a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
The main theme of the Days of Awe between RH and YK is repentance and return to God....exactly what verses 12-14 are stating....This is seen in Rev 14 and the angels call for repentance during the tribulation period. This time period is the last chance man will have to repent of his sins before the second coming...then it will be too late for the tribulation period wicked.
Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
This verse is a blatant reference to Yom Kippur...the holiest day of the Jewish religious year....the hint is the reference to the "trumpet and the fast", also the "solemn assembly" is an event associated with Yom Kippur.
Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Notice the reference to the Bride and Groom...According to Jewish Tradition, when a man and woman are married, they enter their wedding chamber for a period of seven days.....after that they emerge to the public as man and wife to attend the wedding feast. Wether it is 7 days, or 7 years...it is clear that the bride and groom have already spent that time and are now emerging on YK....The Messiah is the Groom, the Believers are the Bride...they have been in the wedding chamber for (7 days or 7 years, I tend to be prewrath so it would be 7 days). This passage equates with Rev 19 and the appearance of Messiah and the armies clothed in white....Also, it is a Yom Kippur tradition that the righteous where white robes (kittle, kittel?) on that day.
Joe 2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where [is] their God?
Again the theme of repentance still associated with the Days of Awe and Yom Kippur....the future 2nd coming of Messiah.
Joe 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
Joe 2:19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
A passage that has the Sukkot (Tabernacles theme) of plenty...the Jews expect that the Messianic Kingdom will be a time of plenty....
Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern [army], and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
The promise that God will destroy the enemies of Israel....this at the 2nd coming of Messiah.
Joe 2:21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
Joe 2:22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
Joe 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first [month].
Joe 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
Joe 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
Joe 2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I [am] in the midst of Israel, and [that] I [am] the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
This group of verses is the very theme of Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) and the promise God made to make Israel the head of the Messianic Kingdom nations...
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
A recap of the days of wrath...
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
The Lord will save those who are righteous and bring them into the Messianic Kingdom....
more after dinner....
G
Georges
Guest
It's a little long but stay with it....some might get some use out of it...maybe spark an interest in the Feast Days and how they really do show a prophetic timeline....
back.....now for a moment......
Isa 26 - 27
Terms....Rosh HaShanah - Feast of Trumpets - Rapture
Yamin Noraim - Days of Awe (Days of repentance between Rh and Yk). - Tribulation period, or the last days of the Trib period.
Yom Kippur - Atonement - 2nd coming of Messiah.
Sukkot - Feast of Tabernacles - Messianic Kingdom.
and again, terms and themes associated with Rosh Hashanah....
1. Repentance (Teshuvah)
2. Head of the Year, Birthday of the World (Rosh HaShanah)
3. The Day of the Awakening Blast (Yom Teruah)
4. The Day of Judgment (Yom HaDin)
5. The Coronation of the Messiah (HaMelech)
6. The Day of Remembrance (Yom HaZikkaron)
7. The time of Jacob's trouble (The birthpangs of the Messiah, Chevlai shel Mashiach)
8.The opening of the gates
9. The wedding ceremony (Kiddushin/Nesu’in)
10.The resurrection of the dead (rapture, natza1)
11.The last trump (shofar)
12. The hidden day (Yom Haskeseh)
Isa 26:1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will [God] appoint [for] walls and bulwarks.
"In that day" a term always meaning the period of the Messianic Kingdom..
Isa 26:2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
Rosh Hashanah...known as the Day the Gates of Heaven are open...This is seen in Rev 4.
Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect peace, [whose] mind [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth in thee.
Also a Rosh Hashanah passage...on this day men are judged, the righteous are entered into the Book of Life....The Wicked are written into the Book of the Wicked as vessel's fit for destruction...
Isa 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH [is] everlasting strength:
Isa 26:5 For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, [even] to the ground; he bringeth it [even] to the dust.
Isa 26:6 The foot shall tread it down, [even] the feet of the poor, [and] the steps of the needy.
Isa 26:7 The way of the just [is] uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.
Isa 26:8 Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of [our] soul [is] to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isa 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
This is a Days of Awe passage. That period between RH and YK where men have a chance to repent...and seek righteousness...during the future tribulation period, this will also occur. Men will have a chance to repent and be saved.
Isa 26:11 LORD, [when] thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: [but] they shall see, and be ashamed for [their] envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.
Isa 26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
Isa 26:13 O LORD our God, [other] lords beside thee have had dominion over us: [but] by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
Isa 26:14 [They are] dead, they shall not live; [they are] deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Isa 26:15 Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed [it] far [unto] all the ends of the earth.
Isa 26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer [when] thy chastening [was] upon them.
Isa 26:17 Like as a woman with child, [that] draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, [and] crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
Isa 26:18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
The time of Jacob's trouble, the tribulation period is equated in Judaism with the birth pains of the Messiah...a period of intense tribulation similar to the ever increasing frequency of a woman's labor pains...
Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
In Jewish eschatology, the Messianic Kingdom will begin with the resurrection of the righteous dead.....This is a rapture passage...and has the same flow as Paul's rapture passage...The dead are raised here.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Again, this Paul's rapture passage echoes this..."enter into thy chambers" is wedding day terminology where the bride and groom are not seen for seven days...The indignation is of couse the Birthpains of the Messiah or Wrath of God...the Great Tribulation. The sister passage to this was Joel 2's quotation of the bride and groom emerging after the indignation.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Clearly a picture of God's wrath...notice that "my people" are in their chambers before the wrath takes place...
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.
In Jewish eschatology, Leviathan is a seven headed sea beast....the very same beast of Rev 13....This event paralleling Rev 19.
Isa 27:2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
"In that day" a synonym always meaning the Messianic Kingdom.
Isa 27:3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest [any] hurt it, I will keep it night and day.
Isa 27:4 Fury [is] not in me: who would set the briers [and] thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.
Isa 27:5 Or let him take hold of my strength, [that] he may make peace with me; [and] he shall make peace with me.
Isa 27:6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.
Isa 27:7 Hath he smitten him, as he smote those that smote him? [or] is he slain according to the slaughter of them that are slain by him?
Isa 27:8 In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind.
Isa 27:9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this [is] all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.
Isa 27:10 Yet the defenced city [shall be] desolate, [and] the habitation forsaken, and left like a wilderness: there shall the calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof.
Isa 27:11 When the boughs thereof are withered, they shall be broken off: the women come, [and] set them on fire: for it [is] a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and he that formed them will shew them no favour.
Isa 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Isa 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
In Judaism the Great Trumpet refers to the shofar that is blown at the closing of the Yom Kippur service and is called the "Nilah". This is not the "last trump".
As you can see....plainly....there is a rapture as shown by the Feast Day terminology. God uses this same pattern throughout the OT prophets....However, usually, in most cases, the sequence goes, Days of Awe, Yom Kippur, and Tabernacles....not very many times does Rosh Hashanah (rapture passages) occur. The question should be...does the rapture happen 7 days before the 2nd coming, or 7 years before...
I tend to think that since Jesus fulfilled the first 4 feasts in short order at his first coming, the same will happen at his second...in other words, at this time, I think the rapture will happen 7 days before the 2nd coming (Yom Kippur).
Georges said:
back.....now for a moment......
Isa 26 - 27
Terms....Rosh HaShanah - Feast of Trumpets - Rapture
Yamin Noraim - Days of Awe (Days of repentance between Rh and Yk). - Tribulation period, or the last days of the Trib period.
Yom Kippur - Atonement - 2nd coming of Messiah.
Sukkot - Feast of Tabernacles - Messianic Kingdom.
and again, terms and themes associated with Rosh Hashanah....
1. Repentance (Teshuvah)
2. Head of the Year, Birthday of the World (Rosh HaShanah)
3. The Day of the Awakening Blast (Yom Teruah)
4. The Day of Judgment (Yom HaDin)
5. The Coronation of the Messiah (HaMelech)
6. The Day of Remembrance (Yom HaZikkaron)
7. The time of Jacob's trouble (The birthpangs of the Messiah, Chevlai shel Mashiach)
8.The opening of the gates
9. The wedding ceremony (Kiddushin/Nesu’in)
10.The resurrection of the dead (rapture, natza1)
11.The last trump (shofar)
12. The hidden day (Yom Haskeseh)
Isa 26:1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will [God] appoint [for] walls and bulwarks.
"In that day" a term always meaning the period of the Messianic Kingdom..
Isa 26:2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
Rosh Hashanah...known as the Day the Gates of Heaven are open...This is seen in Rev 4.
Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect peace, [whose] mind [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth in thee.
Also a Rosh Hashanah passage...on this day men are judged, the righteous are entered into the Book of Life....The Wicked are written into the Book of the Wicked as vessel's fit for destruction...
Isa 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH [is] everlasting strength:
Isa 26:5 For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, [even] to the ground; he bringeth it [even] to the dust.
Isa 26:6 The foot shall tread it down, [even] the feet of the poor, [and] the steps of the needy.
Isa 26:7 The way of the just [is] uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.
Isa 26:8 Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of [our] soul [is] to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isa 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
This is a Days of Awe passage. That period between RH and YK where men have a chance to repent...and seek righteousness...during the future tribulation period, this will also occur. Men will have a chance to repent and be saved.
Isa 26:11 LORD, [when] thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: [but] they shall see, and be ashamed for [their] envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.
Isa 26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
Isa 26:13 O LORD our God, [other] lords beside thee have had dominion over us: [but] by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
Isa 26:14 [They are] dead, they shall not live; [they are] deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Isa 26:15 Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed [it] far [unto] all the ends of the earth.
Isa 26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer [when] thy chastening [was] upon them.
Isa 26:17 Like as a woman with child, [that] draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, [and] crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
Isa 26:18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
The time of Jacob's trouble, the tribulation period is equated in Judaism with the birth pains of the Messiah...a period of intense tribulation similar to the ever increasing frequency of a woman's labor pains...
Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
In Jewish eschatology, the Messianic Kingdom will begin with the resurrection of the righteous dead.....This is a rapture passage...and has the same flow as Paul's rapture passage...The dead are raised here.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Again, this Paul's rapture passage echoes this..."enter into thy chambers" is wedding day terminology where the bride and groom are not seen for seven days...The indignation is of couse the Birthpains of the Messiah or Wrath of God...the Great Tribulation. The sister passage to this was Joel 2's quotation of the bride and groom emerging after the indignation.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Clearly a picture of God's wrath...notice that "my people" are in their chambers before the wrath takes place...
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.
In Jewish eschatology, Leviathan is a seven headed sea beast....the very same beast of Rev 13....This event paralleling Rev 19.
Isa 27:2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
"In that day" a synonym always meaning the Messianic Kingdom.
Isa 27:3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest [any] hurt it, I will keep it night and day.
Isa 27:4 Fury [is] not in me: who would set the briers [and] thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.
Isa 27:5 Or let him take hold of my strength, [that] he may make peace with me; [and] he shall make peace with me.
Isa 27:6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.
Isa 27:7 Hath he smitten him, as he smote those that smote him? [or] is he slain according to the slaughter of them that are slain by him?
Isa 27:8 In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind.
Isa 27:9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this [is] all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.
Isa 27:10 Yet the defenced city [shall be] desolate, [and] the habitation forsaken, and left like a wilderness: there shall the calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof.
Isa 27:11 When the boughs thereof are withered, they shall be broken off: the women come, [and] set them on fire: for it [is] a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and he that formed them will shew them no favour.
Isa 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Isa 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
In Judaism the Great Trumpet refers to the shofar that is blown at the closing of the Yom Kippur service and is called the "Nilah". This is not the "last trump".
As you can see....plainly....there is a rapture as shown by the Feast Day terminology. God uses this same pattern throughout the OT prophets....However, usually, in most cases, the sequence goes, Days of Awe, Yom Kippur, and Tabernacles....not very many times does Rosh Hashanah (rapture passages) occur. The question should be...does the rapture happen 7 days before the 2nd coming, or 7 years before...
I tend to think that since Jesus fulfilled the first 4 feasts in short order at his first coming, the same will happen at his second...in other words, at this time, I think the rapture will happen 7 days before the 2nd coming (Yom Kippur).
J
John the Baptist
Guest
What is the thread? 6-6-6 or a rapture before the Time of real trouble??
Forget the Rapture before the Time of Trouble part (unless you missed the rapture?) because it does not take a rocket scientist to open their 'BLIND' eyes and see that we are already in the early start of the acceleration toward the BOMBSHELL!!
Just lay down the Word for a moment and think about it!
I wonder if you guys ever read & watch the world's News?? All of this is happening today!!
THIS IS WHAT BRINGS ON THE MARK OF THE BEAST!! Anything to get out of this 'time of trouble'. And some here have another approach, huh? A 'rapture' :roll:.
OH' and we 'ain't' leaving here yet! :wink:
--John
Forget the Rapture before the Time of Trouble part (unless you missed the rapture?) because it does not take a rocket scientist to open their 'BLIND' eyes and see that we are already in the early start of the acceleration toward the BOMBSHELL!!
Just lay down the Word for a moment and think about it!
I wonder if you guys ever read & watch the world's News?? All of this is happening today!!
THIS IS WHAT BRINGS ON THE MARK OF THE BEAST!! Anything to get out of this 'time of trouble'. And some here have another approach, huh? A 'rapture' :roll:. OH' and we 'ain't' leaving here yet! :wink:
--John
G
Georges
Guest
Judy said:
I have seen the name before...but haven't read any of his material...I will keep my eye out for it, thanks for the tip...the title does sound like it is right up my alley.
G
Georges
Guest
John the Baptist said:What is the thread? 6-6-6 or a rapture before the Time of real trouble??
Forget the Rapture before the Time of Trouble part (unless you missed the rapture?) because it does not take a rocket scientist to open their 'BLIND' eyes and see that we are already in the early start of the acceleration toward the BOMBSHELL!!
Just lay down the Word for a moment and think about it!
I wonder if you guys ever read & watch the world's News?? All of this is happening today!!
OH' and we 'ain't' leaving here yet! :wink:
--John
John you are consistent..... :silly:
another well presented post....You haven't disappointed me in that you probably hadn't read my entire post, and since you don't know anything about the Jewish roots of Christianity, your response is what I would have expected, sad to say. You are correct in that the thread should be about the 6-6-6, and I for one usually hate detouring off the thread subject....however, my friend the preterist (as smug amillennialists do) asked where in the OT the rapture is found, thinking he had won a coup....I presented the possibility of the prewrath rapture using OT prophecy, Feast Day terminology, and logical common sense.
The pattern I had presented is very recognizable in many (quite a few) OT prophecy passages...The Feast Day order and their alignment in each of these chapters are too many to be coincidence.....Using the Feast Day terminology, I have gone from Isaiah through Malachi and underlined in the colors used in the post above each OT passage that deals with prophecy in terms of Feast Day idioms and phraseology. The pattern is the same....Rosh HaShanah, Days of Awe, Atonement, and Tabernacles....
Learn these and go through your own book....the pattern and detail especially when using colored highlights will pop out immediately....of course, I know that will be asking too much of you....after doing that, you may have to admit I may be on to something....can't have that happen, can we? :wink:
Vic C.
Member
That is one of the books that has been on my "want" list. I think it's time to order a copy and scratch it off the list. :-DJudy said:
You take yor time and get everyone healthy. Family first. Come back when you can.goingupupup said:
God bless... prayers and thoughts are on their way. :angel:
G
Georges
Guest
vic said:
I'm in red....
G
Georges
Guest
vic said:Sorry to hear that George. Cut up the credit cards and ask for a raise.Georges said:
:smt102
:
Ah humor......arh...arh....arh.....(mork from ork laugh)
J
John the Baptist
Guest
vic said:Sorry to hear that George. Cut up the credit cards and ask for a raise.Georges said:
:smt102
***
Wow! Thanks Vic, now we know what the Mark is Georges. :wink:
P
preterist
Guest
Of course no Jews ever taught a pre-wrath rapture or a second coming from the OT. If Jews didn't see it why do you? You refuse to admit the NT has influenced your eschatology. Understandable, since you deny the inspiration of the NT.
G
Georges
Guest
John the Baptist said:vic said:Sorry to hear that George. Cut up the credit cards and ask for a raise.Georges said:
:smt102
***
Wow! Thanks Vic, now we know what the Mark is Georges. :wink:
Luv ya John.....The mark of the George :-D, seriously....click on the link I provided above...at least read about the feasts for the historical and prophetical applications...You may not accept what it says, and that's ok....at least you won't have that "deer in the headlights" look " :o "when I bring up the subject concerning those days. It just might click for you..............................naaahhhhhh.:D
John...just having a little fun at your expense as you were at mine.... :smt052
G
Georges
Guest
preterist said:
Sorry Mr. P......I won't engage with you....not productive....didn't you know that Preterism in Greek means "hard headed", or was it "unmoveable"? :P As far as any debate I've been in or was witnessed to...I've never seen a preterist back down, no matter how many ways he's been disproven. It's not my interest to do that anymore... If Jesus Christ himself came riding down on a bolt of lightning to show a preterist where it was written in stone where he was in err, the preterist would say "But, that's not what Josephus said"....or something to that effect.....kinda like a Missouri mule....ain't gonna get a preterist to budge. 8-)
P
preterist
Guest
That’s a laugh. This coming from someone who denies the authenticity of the NT.
Jesus’ words are all over the NT, but again you are the one who refuses to acknowledge them. Jesus has told us of these things. Why do you even believe Jesus is the Messiah? We only know this from the “corrupted†New Testament.
Yet Josephus was one of those Old Covenant Jews you seem to worship.
Since you refuse to debate me, perhaps you can provide Jewish materials for those reading this thread. Please show them where Jewish writing ever interpreted eschatology the way you do. Show them pre-Christ writings of a pre-wrath rapture seven days before a second coming. Who is raptured, Christians or Jews? Who are the 144000 of Revelation? Why weren’t they raptured?
G
Georges
Guest
preterist said:[size=18Since you refuse to debate me, perhaps you can provide Jewish materials for those reading this thread.
There are a lot....you'll have to do your own research, but I will provide some....oh oh....links to those who do have the references you can look up.
Please show them where Jewish writing ever interpreted eschatology the way you do.
[color=red]For a start....[/color]
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ology#1227
and....
http://www.hebroots.com/heb_root.html#S ... tivalsBook
Have....there are quite a few messianic websites that provide the details and Jewish references for such...you crack me up...you use the same line as those who say "yeh but the bible doesn't actually say the word Rapture"...
Show them pre-Christ writings of a pre-wrath rapture seven days before a second coming.
Common Pretereist....I've laid out very eaisly in the breakdown of Joel chapter 2 and the Isaiah chapters in conjunction with the Feast Days....I'm not going to do it again.....Once again, the Ancieint Israel wedding steps become significant in the 7 day period....you really are amazing....as I've said, I posted the info for the others, as I've also said, it was a waste of time for you......and posts like the above prove my point....Study the Feast Days and the Wedding procedure, then get back to me.....then you will have the right to tell me where my logic is wrong.....until then.....buzz off, you have nothing of value here...
Who is raptured, Christians or Jews?
If it is prewrath, Believers in Chirst who obey the Torah of God. Techically, Christiany should be practiced like it was with the Disciples of Christ, and the Apostles of the Church in Jerusalem..They were Torah observent Jews... In the future, the 144000 will be like those early Apostles, they will practice Judaism, and they will preach the Gospel of Christ. It is obvious that through them many will be witnessesed to, and by them the tribulation believers will recognize the beast and his mark when they appear. The 144000 Israelite believers, the believers who refuse the mark I think will be raptured 7 days before the 2nd coming.
Who are the 144000 of Revelation?
12,000 vigrin men from each tribe of Israe who love Christ and obey God's Torahl....at least that's what my Bible says....what does yours say? :wink:
Why weren’t they raptured?[/size]
Why weren't they raptured? Because the tribulation period hasn't started yet....was that a trick question?
Geez......typical....haven't met a pret yet that's disappointed me...that's why the debate wears thin......