6-6-6 a Jewish number....?

[Georges]

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews], and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

...say they are Jews....Indicates these claim to be Torah observant "Christian" men.
...and are not.....Indicates they do not follow Torah (i.e. They observe Pauline Christianity).
...synagogue of Satan...Indicates they are Jewish believers who have forsaken Torah....perhaps succumbing to Paul's anti Torah philosophy...?

Am I understanding you to say Paul was a false teacher?

[color=red]I don't know if Paul was a false teacher....I do think he had his own adgenda to promote....and that it was different than the Apostolic Church of Jerusalem....a lot of questions are raised concerning Paul. Paul appears to be a Torah observant Jew (Acts 28) but his letters appear to promote non Torah observance....for a start.

Secondly, can Jews get to heaven outside of Christ?

Can't answer that....only God knows....Do the Jews believe in the Messiah? yes (they will recognize and accept Jesus at his 2nd coming). Do they accept Jesus as the Messiah?....some do some do not. The righteous Jews (Torah observant) of all time periods expect to be raised to enter the Messianic Kingdom....do they get to heaven? who knows....are they raised at the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom....yes, if they are righteous.

Question back at you.....Was Lazarus a Christian....or was he a righteous Jew?

 

[Georges]

4. Oh yeah...I can't forget the biggest thorn in the side of preterism....that being Revelation as being written in 90 AD and not pre 70AD.

Still waiting on proof.

Here is the proof....you will have to verify it.......I have the book with it's references in hand.

Book: The End Times Controversy
Editors: Tim LaHaye......yes.....that's right....
Thomas Ice......another man the Preterists love to hate...
Authors: Vary by Chapter

Chapter 6: The Stake in the Heart: The A.D. 95 Date of Revelation....
Pages: 123-150 - Provide the Apology and References for the later date of Revelation.


To all of the posters reading this thread....Preterist's hate this book because it debunks every nuance of the Preterist argument....I've been on other forums, where Preterist's typically come unglued at the mention of this book. Preterist's (the respondent) expected response to this particular post should be along the line of their (Preterist's) typical rebuttal.....If not he will be the first Preterist I've run across who hadn't.

If anyone is interested in Preterism, I would strongly suggest that they review this book (easily obtainable at any bookstore, very affordable) before they commit to that system.....

Here are the Chapters that debunk Preterism....

1. What is Preterism
2. The History of Preterism
3. Hermeneutics and Bible Prophecy
4. Preterist "Time Texts"
5. Signs in the Sky
6. The Stake in the Heart: The AD 95 Date of Revelation
7. The Olivet Discourse
8. How Preterists Misuse History to Advance Their View of Prophecy
9. Was Babylon Destroyed When Jerusalem Fell in AD 70?
10. Revelation and the First Beast
11. The Little Apocalypse of Zechariah
12. The War Over Words
13. The 70 Weeks of Daniel
14. Historical Problems with Preterism's Interpretation of Events in AD 70
15. Historical Problems with a First Century Fulfillment of the Olivet Disc...
16. Why Futurism?
17. Some Practical Dangers of Preterism....


Preterist....the evidence is in the book with chapters and resources contained. I've got it in front of me...I won't type the entire Chapter of each subject....but I guarantee you that in it I've seen every single preterist discussion point debunked. Now, go buy the book and refute it.

 

[preterist]

Well, since we are addressing other posters, I will do the same.

If you will notice George debates not with scripture but with dispie books. Why is that? Can he not go to scripture to prove his views? One has to wonder. But this is now of minor concern considering how he answered my latest questions to him. I first asked him if he thought Paul was a false prophet, here is his very disturbing answer:

I don't know if Paul was a false teacher....I do think he had his own adgenda to promote....and that it was different than the Apostolic Church of Jerusalem....a lot of questions are raised concerning Paul. Paul appears to be a Torah observant Jew (Acts 28) but his letters appear to promote non Torah observance....for a start.

Well, I guess we need to throw out much of the New Testament if George is correct. If he doesn’t know whether Paul was a false teacher or not, then why would you accept as inspired anything he says? I sure wouldn’t. Am I the only one that finds this disturbing? I can promise you all those authors of “The End Times Controversy†agree with me on this and would consider you more of a heretic than me.


Secondly I asked him if Jews could get to heaven outside of Christ, he said this:

Can't answer that....only God knows....

He can’t answer that? Jesus sure could answer it:


Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Could Jesus be any clearer? To answer otherwise is borderline blasphemy. Yet George seems to indicate there may be ways outside of Christ. Again, am I the only one that finds this disturbing? I guarantee your guru, Thomas Ice, doesn’t believe anything close to this.

So according to George, neither Paul nor Jesus’ words can be trusted. Perhaps this is why he doesn’t use scripture to support his views.


Now George says this:

Preterist's hate this book because it debunks every nuance of the Preterist argument....I've been on other forums, where Preterist's typically come unglued at the mention of this book. Preterist's (the respondent) expected response to this particular post should be along the line of their (Preterist's) typical rebuttal.....If not he will be the first Preterist I've run across who hadn't.



I don’t know if preterist hate it as much as they are amused by it. George, what was your theology before this book came out? You must have been completely in the dark. Thomas Ice seems to be your only authority, obviously even above Paul. Who would you consider a better source, Paul or Thomas Ice?

As for all those posters reading this, I also encourage you to get the book and read it. Then with an open mind read what preterist believe about each of these views. There will be a 12 chapter book coming out, hopefully by November, that will give the preterist response to this book.

What is rather amusing is how Ice contradicts himself in other writings.

Here is his quote from one book:

“Because Matthew 24:4-14 cannot happen until after the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation, it is wrong to say such events are prophetically significant in our own day.â€Â(End Times, 167).


This from his “Charting the End Timesâ€Â:

“What are the signs of the end? The first sign Jesus pointed to was war. Not just any war, of which the world has seen over 15,000 to date, but a special war started by two nations and joined by many other nations on either side until all the world is involved. It was to be the greatest war in human history. That occurred with World War I in 1914-1918, Since then there have been a parade of ‘signs’, the most significant one being the recognition of Israel as a nation in 1948. Many other signs have occurred in fulfillment of Matthew 24:8: ‘These are the beginning of sorrows.’†(p. 36)

So which is it George?

How about this one:

The present age is not a time in which Bible prophecy is being fulfilled.†1
1] Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, Prophecy Watch, (Eugene, Ore, Harvest House, 1998) 10

Then he says this:

, “Keep in mind, however, that there are prophecies being fulfilled during the Church Age that relate to God’s prophetic plan for Israel, and not the church.†(Charting, 48)

“Since believers today live in the Church Age, prophetic signs relating to Israel are not being fulfilled in our day. Some prophecy teachers talk about how God is fulfilling dozens of prophecies in our day. This is not the case because the prophecies they cite refer to events that will take place during the tribulation.†2
[2] Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, Fast Facts on Bible Prophecy, (Eugene, Ore., Harvest House, 1997) 197

And this is the guy whom you choose to be your Guru?

And George offers this up for me:

Preterist....the evidence is in the book with chapters and resources contained. I've got it in front of me...I won't type the entire Chapter of each subject....but I guarantee you that in it I've seen every single preterist discussion point debunked. Now, go buy the book and refute it.

You see posters, he thinks by reading Thomas Ice, preterism will crumble. Here is a clue, preterism is growing and dispensationalism is shrinking. That is why these men wrote the book. They are losing their audience by the thousands. No one will be left to buy their books except the George’s of the world. These “scholars†will rarely, if at all, even debate a full-preterist. Why? Because they will lose more followers once they are exposed to preterism. I am a perfect example. I am a Southern Baptist raised in the dispie world of Ice and MacArthur's eschatology. I have left the dispe view for good, never to return. I am one of thousands.

Ice is your proof that Revelation was written in AD95. If you would actually study the subject you would find that the entire late-date position comes down to one paragraph written by Irenaeus. Which by the way no longer exists. And if you had bothered to study the subject you would have found that scholars have been on both sides of the issues for nearly 2000 years. Sorry to disappoint you, but the early-date belief was not a preterist invention. Anyone wishing to actually study the subject should pick up “Before Jerusalem Fell†by Kenneth Gentry. He gives internal and external evidence for both the early and late date views. Then make up you own mind as to what the evidence points to. Don’t just take Thomas Ice’s word for it. By the way, if I’m not mistaken one of the contributors to Ice’s book actually holds to an early writing of Revelation.

Arethas
(On Revelation 7:4) "When the Evangelist received these oracles, the destruction in which the Jews were involved was not yet inflicted by the Romans."

Clement of Alexandria (150-215)
"For the teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius. And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, end with Nero." (Miscellanies 7:17.)

Epiphanies (A. D. 315-403)
States Revelation was written under "Claudius [Nero] Caesar." (Epiphanies, Heresies 51:12,)

Philip Schaff (1877)
"On two points I have changed my opinion -- the second Roman captivity of Paul (which I am disposed to admit in the interest of the Pastoral Epistles), and the date of the Apocalypse (which I now assign, with the majority of modern critics, to the year 68 or 69 instead of 95, as before)." (Vol. I, Preface to the Revised Edition, 1882 The History of the Christian Church, volume 1)

"The early date [of Revelation] is now accepted by perhaps the majority of scholars." (Encyclopedia 3:2036.)

"Tertullian’s legend of the Roman oil-martyrdom of John seems to point to Nero rather than to any other emperor, and was so understood by Jerome (Adv. Jovin. 1.26) (History 1:428.)

"The destruction of Jerusalem would be a worthy theme for the genius of a Christian Homer. It has been called "the most soul-stirring of all ancient history." But there was no Jeremiah to sing the funeral dirge of the city of David and Solomon. The Apocalypse was already written, and had predicted that the heathen "shall tread the holy city under foot forty and two months." (p. 397-398)


F.W. Farrar (1886)
"there can be no reasonable doubt respecting the (early) date of the Apocalypse." (The Early Days of Christianity; NY, NY: A.L. Burt, 1884; p. 387)

"We cannot accept a dubious expression of the Bishop of Lyons as adequate to set aside an overwhelming weight of evidence, alike external and internal, in proof of the fact that the Apocalypse was written, at the latest, soon after the death of Nero." (The Early Days of Christianity; NY, NY: A.L. Burt, 1884; p. 408)

The reason why the early date and mainly contemporary explanation of the book is daily winning fresh adherents among unbiased thinkers of every Church and school, is partly because it rests on so simple and secure a basis, and partly because no other can compete with it. It is indeed the only system which is built on the plain and repeated statements and indications of the Seer himself and the corresponding events are so closely accordant with the symbols as to make it certain that this scheme of interpretation is the only one that can survive. (The Early Days of Christianity; NY, NY: A.L. Burt, 1884; p. 434)

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown (1871)
"The following arguments favor an earlier date, namely, under Nero: (1) EUSEBIUS [Demonstration of the Gospel] unites in the same sentence John's banishment with the stoning of James and the beheading of Paul, which were under Nero. (2) CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA'S story of the robber reclaimed by John, after he had pursued, and with difficulty overtaken him, accords better with John then being a younger man than under Domitian, when he was one hundred years old. Arethas, in the sixth century, applies the sixth seal to the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70), adding that the Apocalypse was written before that event. So the Syriac version states he was banished by Nero the Cæsar. Laodicea was overthrown by an earthquake (A.D. 60) but was immediately rebuilt, so that its being called "rich and increased with goods" is not incompatible with this book having been written under the Neronian persecution (A.D. 64). But the possible allusions to it in Heb 10:37; compare Re 1:4,8 4:8 22:12; Heb 11:10; compare Re 21:14; Heb 12:22,23; compare Re 14:1; Heb 8:1,2; compare Re 11:19 15:5 21:3; Heb 4:12; compare Re 1:16 2:12,16 19:13,15; Heb 4:9; compare Re 20:1-15; also 1Pe 1:7,13 4:13, with Re 1:1; 1Pe 2:9 with Re 5:10; 2Ti 4:8, with Re 2:26,27 3:21 11:18; Eph 6:12, with Re 12:7-12; Php 4:3, with Re 3:5 13:8,17:8 20:12,15; Col 1:18, with Re 1:5; 1Co 15:52, with Re 10:7 11:15-18, make a date before the destruction of Laodicea possible. Cerinthus is stated to have died before John; as then he borrowed much in his Pseudo-Apocalypse from John's, it is likely the latter was at an earlier date than Domitian's reign. See TILLOCH'S Introduction to Apocalypse. But the Pauline benediction (Re 1:4) implies it was written after Paul's death under Nero." (introduction to Revelation)

N.I.V. Study Bible (1923)
"Revelation was written when Christians were entering a time of persecution. The two periods most often mentioned are the latter part of Nero's reign (A.D.54-68) and the latter part of Dominian's reign (81-96).

 

[preterist]

goingupupup,

I've answered your questions where are you? goinggoinggone?

 

[Georges]

P....You didn't disappoint me.....I knew you would be true to Preterism and rebut as such....I will only respond to the posts where I am involved, however the chat is getting a little boring for me....done it too many times.

If you will notice George debates not with scripture but with dispie books.

I debate with scripture often....Yes, the editors and authors of the book are most likely dispensationalist....So What? If they put the proof with references to refute Preterism (quite easily I might add) who cares what they are. You my friend as a Preterists belong to a vast minority in the world of Bible prophecy scholars...so don't act like you've got the market cornered..far from it

Why is that?

Cause they've done the leg work with the research.....You use your preterist sources, I'll use dispie (if it agrees with my studies). As I've said the book has all the references to refute Preterism....By the way good deflection....a common Preterist tack of debate. :wink:

Can he not go to scripture to prove his views?

Anyone on the forums who has debated me knows that I do use scripture most often....sometimes you need commentary on the people of the time to understand passages as written...who do you as a pretereist go to .....Got news for you....the Gospel of Josephus isn't in anybody's NT....

One has to wonder. But this is now of minor concern considering how he answered my latest questions to him. I first asked him if he thought Paul was a false prophet, here is his very disturbing answer:

I don't know if Paul was a false teacher....I do think he had his own agenda to promote....and that it was different than the Apostolic Church of Jerusalem....a lot of questions are raised concerning Paul. Paul appears to be a Torah observant Jew (Acts 28) but his letters appear to promote non Torah observance....for a start.

Well, I guess we need to throw out much of the New Testament if George is correct.

Getting down to Brass tacks....That pretty much sums it up....how much can you trust concerning the NT? Revelation aside, the other books have been edited....that's fact. Now, if items have been added and subtracted, you tell me....how much of it can be trusted.....10%, 50, 95%, 99.5%? If certain parts of the NT doesn't agree with the OT.....can't use it. The way I see it...if the Tanach was good enough for Jesus and the Disciples, it's good enough for me...

If he doesn’t know whether Paul was a false teacher or not, then why would you accept as inspired anything he says? I sure wouldn’t.

I don't really care if anyone agrees with what I write or not.....preferably I would hope for mutual education (except for preterism of course). As for Paul....his motives aren't clear....a good study on his story provides that. I will give Paul some benefit of the doubt as not all of the Letters attributed to him are written by him...another fact. And, I will give Paul some benefit of the doubt that some of his texts may have been edited.

Am I the only one that finds this disturbing?

No...you are not alone....I am kind of a pariah.....I too would have condemned myself years ago for questioning Paul...Now that I'm older and have years of study under my belt....Questions must be raised...and answered.


I can promise you all those authors of “The End Times Controversy†agree with me on this and would consider you more of a heretic than me.

Most certainly the Authors of the "The End Times Controversy" would consider Paul...as the greatest man since Christ...I don't dispute that...That doesn't change the fact that they debunk Preterism with their research...Again nice deflection....almost



Secondly I asked him if Jews could get to heaven outside of Christ, he said this:

Can't answer that....only God knows....

He can’t answer that? Jesus sure could answer it:

I'm not Jesus.....

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Again....sorry...but I'm of the mind that thinks that if someone doesn't know, or ever heard of Jesus...that God judges the Heart....In the case of Jews, Jews love God....period....is God going to condemn them? So...God is going to condemn Jews because they love him and try to keep his commandments? Makes a lot of sense.

Could Jesus be any clearer? To answer otherwise is borderline blasphemy. Yet George seems to indicate there may be ways outside of Christ.

That is for God to Judge.....I've presented the case in the response above....Sorry, but I can't believe a righteous man who hasn't heard of Christ as going to hell.....

Again, am I the only one that finds this disturbing? I guarantee your guru, Thomas Ice, doesn’t believe anything close to this.

Not my Guru....don't know much about him...I tend to stay more with Jewish eschatology studies...

So according to George, neither Paul nor Jesus’ words can be trusted. Perhaps this is why he doesn’t use scripture to support his views.

Jesus...yes....if he agrees with the OT....Paul.....questionable....Still I don't throw the baby out with the bath water....I use Paul if his statements jive with the OT.

Now George says this:

Preterist's hate this book because it debunks every nuance of the Preterist argument....I've been on other forums, where Preterist's typically come unglued at the mention of this book. Preterist's (the respondent) expected response to this particular post should be along the line of their (Preterist's) typical rebuttal.....If not he will be the first Preterist I've run across who hadn't.



I don’t know if preterist hate it as much as they are amused by it. George, what was your theology before this book came out?

My theology is ever evolving as everyones should be....

You must have been completely in the dark.

In the beginning, yes....everyone starts from scratch...except for you of course...sorry couldn't resist... :P

Thomas Ice seems to be your only authority, obviously even above Paul. Who would you consider a better source, Paul or Thomas Ice?

As I've said....Don't know much about him...Here is a strange thing. The ETC Book was given to me by my daughter in law as a birthday gift. She knew I was a bible prophecy buff, saw the title and bought it for me. It sat on my shelf for a year....during that time, I belonged to several prophecy forums and at the time heavily debating pretists. Went on a cruise, packed that book (I just grabbed one out of the book cabinent) and opened it on the boat. My wife walking by asked what I was smiling about. I told her I was reading a book about the short comings of preterism....I didn't know the book was about Preterism...I thought it was an Amil book by the title. The book was giving references for all of the arguments I was in the middle of on the other forums....divine intervention or what?

Anyway back to the question......I didn't know and don't know Ice other than this book and the hatred Preterists have (obviously) toward him as shown on the other forums. You fit the mold....Besides...there are many authors that contribute to that book.

As for all those posters reading this, I also encourage you to get the book and read it. Then with an open mind read what preterist believe about each of these views. There will be a 12 chapter book coming out, hopefully by November, that will give the preterist response to this book.

What is rather amusing is how Ice contradicts himself in other writings.

There are folks who do contradict themselves......

Here is his quote from one book:

“Because Matthew 24:4-14 cannot happen until after the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation, it is wrong to say such events are prophetically significant in our own day.â€Â(End Times, 167).

Of course you are taking this quote out of context....If you read the page, he is stating that he quotes this on radio programs as saying that Mat won't happen until Israel is in it's Tribulation period....That hasn't happened yet. He is simply trying not to date set.. According to his opinion, the Rapture will happen before that. In mine...it will happen during. But I approach it from a Jewish viewpoint.

This from his “Charting the End Timesâ€Â:

“What are the signs of the end? The first sign Jesus pointed to was war. Not just any war, of which the world has seen over 15,000 to date, but a special war started by two nations and joined by many other nations on either side until all the world is involved. It was to be the greatest war in human history. That occurred with World War I in 1914-1918, Since then there have been a parade of ‘signs’, the most significant one being the recognition of Israel as a nation in 1948. Many other signs have occurred in fulfillment of Matthew 24:8: ‘These are the beginning of sorrows.’†(p. 36)

Frankly, I do have the book and thank you for the quote....Honestly, I don't know why he would have said that since even WW2 was more devestating....I don't agree with the War statement here, but generally agree the dispensationalist view....agreeing with some statements, disagreeing with others...Still, if I see something in Ice's work that I don't agree with I'll admit it.

So which is it George?

What is what....? I personally believe that there will be a prewrath rapture, 7 days before the 2nd coming....obviously I don't agree with Ice on some things...but that doesn't mean he is wrong on everything....I'm sure he wouldn't agree with me on many things...Why am I talking about Ice...?

How about this one:

The present age is not a time in which Bible prophecy is being fulfilled.†1
1] Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, Prophecy Watch, (Eugene, Ore, Harvest House, 1998) 10

Generally a true statement....concering Christians....

Then he says this:

, “Keep in mind, however, that there are prophecies being fulfilled during the Church Age that relate to God’s prophetic plan for Israel, and not the church.†(Charting, 48)

Generally a true statement....Israel returning to the land is the onset of the promised return to the land. The Messianic kingdom will show the Jews having returned to the land....So the re-introduction of the Nation of Israel isn't so much a Christian prophecy as it is an Israeli prophecy.

“Since believers today live in the Church Age, prophetic signs relating to Israel are not being fulfilled in our day. Some prophecy teachers talk about how God is fulfilling dozens of prophecies in our day. This is not the case because the prophecies they cite refer to events that will take place during the tribulation.†2

Also generally a true statement....So far the beginning of the regathering is occurring...and as far as I can see it is the only prophecy to be fulfilled post temple destruction, so far. The beginning of the rest of the end time prophecies do occur with the future beginning of the 70th week.

[2] Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, Fast Facts on Bible Prophecy, (Eugene, Ore., Harvest House, 1997) 197

And this is the guy whom you choose to be your Guru?

Well....obvious as to your disposition....Guru...don't know him, but you obviously do. As I've stated, I perceive Bible prophecy from a Jewish eschatological view...and that lines up closer to Dispensationalism than Preterism....

And George offers this up for me:

Preterist....the evidence is in the book with chapters and resources contained. I've got it in front of me...I won't type the entire Chapter of each subject....but I guarantee you that in it I've seen every single preterist discussion point debunked. Now, go buy the book and refute it.

You see posters, he thinks by reading Thomas Ice, preterism will crumble. Here is a clue, preterism is growing and dispensationalism is shrinking. That is why these men wrote the book.

I will admit that Preterists are very clever and put up a seemingly convincing argument....but everyone can decide for themselves. They hate Ice because he's put them in their place...and exposed them for the fraud's they are.....Preterism is a Satanic deception....They claim that Christ already returned at 70AD right? He's not coming back again physically is he....?

They are losing their audience by the thousands. No one will be left to buy their books except the George’s of the world. These “scholars†will rarely, if at all, even debate a full-preterist. Why? Because they will lose more followers once they are exposed to preterism. I am a perfect example. I am a Southern Baptist raised in the dispie world of Ice and MacArthur's eschatology. I have left the dispe view for good, never to return. I am one of thousands.

Yeh...right....perfect example....You are the exception to the Southern Baptist rule....so....quit blowing smoke....take my advice....study eschatology from a Jewish viewpoint, the change in perspective may be eye opening.


All for now.... it's off to bed for me...I'll get back to the rest of your post tomorrow....

 

[goingupupup]

goingupupup,

I've answered your questions where are you? goinggoinggone?

Hi, No I am not gone just watching and reading all the post that are being presented here, I didn't answer your post because I stand by what I stated, I've already been through this argument and know that the preterist view don't and cannot hold water or truth it is always left wanting when it comes to explaining and putting scripture up to scripture.
The bible says exactly what it means, It is our road map given to us by God to know what his plans are for our future if it was just for the people of 70AD then what is the good of us reading and teaching of his word? It's all over according to you guys so really now what's the use? I am going to post a link here and I really hope and pray that you will take a look at it and then come back on here and tell me you still know it all and your preterist view/theology is correct, as anyone eyes to see and a little common sense can get what the bible is telling and showing, I will quote from this book and present argument after argrument as the truth can be found here.

http://www.ellisskolfield.com/downloadable-books.shtml

all I ask is that you take sometime and read what this book is telling us, I will warn you ahead of time if you are the least bit anti-semenitic don't bother to read it as will upset you, but then the truth should stir the spirit inside you out of a stupor.

 

[Vic C.]

Can we please refrain from attacking each other? Thank you.

N.I.V. Study Bible (1923)
"Revelation was written when Christians were entering a time of persecution. The two periods most often mentioned are the latter part of Nero's reign (A.D.54-68) and the latter part of Dominian's reign (81-96).

Pre, what is you source for your info, particularly the quote above?

There was no NIV in 1923. (hey, it rhymes-lol)

 

[preterist]

....That pretty much sums it up....how much can you trust concerning the NT? Revelation aside, the other books have been edited....that's fact. Now, if items have been added and subtracted, you tell me....how much of it can be trusted.....10%, 50, 95%, 99.5%? If certain parts of the NT doesn't agree with the OT.....can't use it. The way I see it...if the Tanach was good enough for Jesus and the Disciples, it's good enough for me..

.

That says it all about you as far as I’m concerned.

As for Paul....his motives aren't clear

So he wasn’t inspired.

Again....sorry...but I'm of the mind that thinks that if someone doesn't know, or ever heard of Jesus...that God judges the Heart....In the case of Jews, Jews love God....period....is God going to condemn them? So...God is going to condemn Jews because they love him and try to keep his commandments? Makes a lot of sense.

Unbelievable statement. Read Matt 23. Oops I forgot, Jesus’ words mean nothing to you.

Sorry, but I can't believe a righteous man who hasn't heard of Christ as going to hell....

Christ is how one becomes righteous. Darn it, I did it again. I assumed you believe Paul was inspired. That makes the entire book of Romans meaningless.

Jesus...yes....if he agrees with the OT....Paul.....questionable....Still I don't throw the baby out with the bath water....I use Paul if his statements jive with the OT.

So if Jesus and Paul “jive†with your warped view then you accept it if not you throw it out. Nice exegesis.

Anyway back to the question......I didn't know and don't know Ice other than this book and the hatred Preterists have (obviously) toward him as shown on the other forums. You fit the mold....Besides...there are many authors that contribute to that book.

Other than eschatology, I agree with Ice more than you do. I don’t hate the man, I’ve never met him. You seem to be the one full of hate for preterist.

What is what....? I personally believe that there will be a prewrath rapture, 7 days before the 2nd coming...

Since you don’t use Paul as a source, then where in the OT can I find this? OT, not web-site. Find me, rapture, a 7 day pre-wrath rapture, and a second coming in the OT. After all, it the OT was good enough for Jesus it's all you need as well.

Yeh...right....perfect example....You are the exception to the Southern Baptist rule....so....quit blowing smoke...

As I say, this is changing. Many Baptist pre-Darby were post-mill. More and more today are A-mill.

take my advice....study eschatology from a Jewish viewpoint, the change in perspective may be eye opening.

I’ll stick with Biblical eschatology.

 

[preterist]

I didn't answer your post because I stand by what I stated,

I've already been through this argument and know that the preterist view don't and cannot hold water or truth it is always left wanting when it comes to explaining and putting scripture up to scripture.

Of course I wouldn’t know that since neither of you use scripture to defend your positions. You, like George, point me to web-sites instead of scriptures.

The bible says exactly what it means,

It sure does:

Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

if it was just for the people of 70AD then what is the good of us reading and teaching of his word?

So I guess you ignore much of the Old Testament.

I am going to post a link here and I really hope and pray that you will take a look at it and then come back on here and tell me you still know it all and your preterist view/theology is correct, as anyone eyes to see and a little common sense can get what the bible is telling and showing

Gee, I just wanted the scripture reference that told us modern Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy. Yet you seem not to be able to do the simplest of requests.

I will quote from this book and present argument after argrument as the truth can be found here.

I’ll stick with the Bible. Other books and commentaries can be helpful, but if you can’t make your case from scripture, then you don’t have much of a case.

I will warn you ahead of time if you are the least bit anti-semenitic don't bother to read it as will upset you

Already you assume I’m anti-Semitic. Yet it is your group that is transporting Jews back to Israel so that two-thirds will be slaughtered by anti-christ.

 

[goingupupup]

if you read the link I supplied(it even agrees with some of what you profess) you'd understand or maybe you know it all and cannot learn anything new.
No the Old Testament is just as relevant today as the day it was written, Gods word is his word no matter what the time is, you can't take the bible and pick out the parts that only appeal to what you want it to say and be, you must take it all or put it down and walk away as the old interprets the new and vise versa. I believed in the pre-wrath and after I read the book the I posted for you to read, I now have to go and research that, so, here I am still learning from the word of God. I don't think anyone can say my doctrine is perfect and the right one, I feel if they did they would be lying to themselves and others because with Gods word more is always revealed and theologies are disproved by the word of God by itself.
I have no problem starting to quote scripture with you, I would start in Romans and I am sure you know what verse I will be quoting, as I am sure you already had the arguments that I would be putting before you, but if you want to we can go there. I am happy to oblige.

 

[preterist]

Pre, what is you source for your info, particularly the quote above?

There was no NIV in 1923. (hey, it rhymes-lol)

I think it should actually read 1973. I'll try to verify that quote.

 

[preterist]

No the Old Testament is just as relevant today as the day it was written, Gods word is his word no matter what the time is, you can't take the bible and pick out the parts that only appeal to what you want it to say and be, you must take it all or put it down and walk away as the old interprets the new and vise versa.

Very good, now you know why Preterist study the NT.

Now let me help you out. In skimming the book he uses Ezek 37 as his proof that modern Israel fulfills prophecy.: page 96.


Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O my people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.

He says this was fulfilled in 1948. He then says: “Armageddon follows closely at the heels of this prophecy.†Well, its been almost 60 years. Where is Armaggedon?

Do you wonder why he doesn’t continue on in his exposition of Ez 37? Like you said, you just can’t pick and choose with scriptures you wish to use. Lets go ahead and deal with the next verses which he conveniently skipped over. I wonder why?

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, O my people.

So is this what happened in 1948? Do they know now that He is Jehovah? Most in modern Israel are not only not Jewish in faith but are atheist and agnostics. Please explain this verse to me in light of being fulfilled in 1948.

Eze 37:14 And I will put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land: and ye shall know that I, Jehovah, have spoken it and performed it, saith Jehovah.

It seems the Spirit would be put in them and then they would live. Then they would recognize it was Jehovah. 1948? Please explain this fulfillment.


Perhaps also he doesn’t want to deal with verse 26 and following:

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the nations shall know that I am Jehovah that sanctifieth Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Notice how Paul interprets this:

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Paul quotes Ez. and says it is fulfilled. So unless you are like George and deny Paul’s inspiration what do you do with it? You now understand why George hates Paul. He quotes a lot of OT passages that George doesn’t like.

We are this sanctuary where God dwells:

Eph 2:20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord;
Eph 2:22 in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

 

[goingupupup]

please read Cht 10-17 I really don't want to have to try and copy the text as there is so much it says and it is all very relevant.

 

[preterist]

please read Cht 10-17 I really don't want to have to try and copy the text as there is so much it says and it is all very relevant.

I really don't want to read an entire book on the internet. I took a portion of what I found and showed you the problems I have with his interpretation. Can you explain to me where I am wrong or not?

How would you like it if I debated you by pointing to a book on the net and telling you to read it.

Here you go, read all this and get back with me:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/russell.html

 

[goingupupup]

sorry but I was going to cut, copy and paste, but it is too long of an article for here so I thought it would be better if I got you to read it from the link.
I don't have time tonight to post so tomorrow I will get my coffee on early and share with you my views on things, I will even supply the scriptures.

 

[Georges]

Um.....back to the original subject......

anyone have a serious.....reason....... why the mark will not be a false shin, as that provides the best explanation of what it is?

False Messiah.......True Messiah (Jesus)
False Prophet........True Prophet (Elijah)
False mark...........Legitimate mark

It's a battle of counterfeits......Satan, the master counterfeiter?


Anyone out there with any Jewish studies in their background?

 

[John the Baptist]

Um.....back to the original subject......

anyone have a serious.....reason....... why the mark will not be a false shin, as that provides the best explanation of what it is?

False Messiah.......True Messiah (Jesus)
False Prophet........True Prophet (Elijah)
False mark...........Legitimate mark

It's a battle of counterfeits......Satan, the master counterfeiter?


Anyone out there with any Jewish studies in their background?

*****
John here:
You use the one verse from Eccl. at your ending of your posts, why not use both of history repeats, & then go find the First application to the Mark of the Beast final testing? If one believes what they post & what God's Word says?
See both Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. Then take the 666 last testing before Christians enter their land of Canaan & see what the first 'exact' test was before the children of Israel were to enter their land of Canaan

You know, God is creditable!! So then it has got to be found in times past!:wink:

 

[Georges]

Um.....back to the original subject......

anyone have a serious.....reason....... why the mark will not be a false shin, as that provides the best explanation of what it is?

False Messiah.......True Messiah (Jesus)
False Prophet........True Prophet (Elijah)
False mark...........Legitimate mark

It's a battle of counterfeits......Satan, the master counterfeiter?


Anyone out there with any Jewish studies in their background?

*****
John here:
You use the one verse from Eccl. at your ending of your posts, why not use both of history repeats, & then go find the First application to the Mark of the Beast final testing?

The Mark of the Beast doesn't apply to Israel...only those who follow the beast....so there doesn't need to be precedence set...Ezekiel 8,9 sets a precedence of the mark of God on the 144000, it also speaks about the future desolation of the temple by Antiochus and/or the future abomination of the temple by the future False messiah. I will research to see if any had received the mark of God during Antiochus' time.

As far as "History repeating itself", obviously it will not be exact but in type it will. However, Antiochus' desecration of the Temple in History past will (according to Jesus) happen again in the future...personally I wouldn't be surprised if it happens on the same day as it had in the past. Another example of history repeating itself, the 1st and 2nd Jewish Temples being destroyed on the same day (different years). If we live long enough we may see Israel split into 2 states just like in history past, and that the battles fought in Israel will be repeated again.


If one believes what they post & what God's Word says?

See both Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. Then take the 666 last testing before Christians enter their land of Canaan & see what the first 'exact' test was before the children of Israel were to enter their land of Canaan

Huh....? Please restate....doesn't make sense...

You know, God is creditable!! So then it has got to be found in times past!:wink:

Common JB, history isn't finished yet so your statement is bogus.... :wink:

 

[John the Baptist]

Um.....back to the original subject......

anyone have a serious.....reason....... why the mark will not be a false shin, as that provides the best explanation of what it is?

False Messiah.......True Messiah (Jesus)
False Prophet........True Prophet (Elijah)
False mark...........Legitimate mark

It's a battle of counterfeits......Satan, the master counterfeiter?


Anyone out there with any Jewish studies in their background?

*****
John here:
You use the one verse from Eccl. at your ending of your posts, why not use both of history repeats, & then go find the First application to the Mark of the Beast final testing?

John here: You have everything messed up friend. (are you Jewish?)
That is like Adam was a Jew, or that S.& G. is not an example for all, or Revelation 17:5 ones are all Gentile, yet we see Revelation 3:9 call this Synagogue the ones calling them self Jews, but do lie. And on & ON! Way TOO MANY ALL INCLUDED ones to mention. Other tongues of Acts, Leviticus 17:8-9 Day of Atonement!!!
*****

The Mark of the Beast doesn't apply to Israel...only those who follow the beast....so there doesn't need to be precedence set...Ezekiel 8,9 sets a precedence of the mark of God on the 144000, it also speaks about the future desolation of the temple by Antiochus and/or the future abomination of the temple by the future False messiah. I will research to see if any had received the mark of God during Antiochus' time.

As far as "History repeating itself", obviously it will not be exact but in type it will. However, Antiochus' desecration of the Temple in History past will (according to Jesus) happen again in the future...personally I wouldn't be surprised if it happens on the same day as it had in the past. Another example of history repeating itself, the 1st and 2nd Jewish Temples being destroyed on the same day (different years). If we live long enough we may see Israel split into 2 states just like in history past, and that the battles fought in Israel will be repeated again.

****
There is not scripture backing up 'your' theory, just words! Ezekiel 9 & the Matthew 25:1-12 finds the second history will find [again] a shut door, (Matthew 23:38 again ='s Revelation Revelation 3:9) a Midnight Cry & an ALL SLEEPING church! Also another [TWO TIME} REJECTION OF CHRIST.

Who Awakened these ones is the question? Only one way to know, and it DOES NOT GET AWAKENED FROM THE INSIDE YOKED MEMBERSHIP, huh? :wink: (with you too appearing asleep! )
Even down to the 70 AD Slaughter of Ezekiel 9's REPEAT of Israel which we find in the counterpart of 666 for the whole world this time around, all those who [again] claim to be God servers. : But few are.
****

If one believes what they post & what God's Word says?

See both Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. Then take the 666 last testing before Christians enter their land of Canaan & see what the first 'exact' test was before the children of Israel were to enter their land of Canaan

Huh....? Please restate....doesn't make sense...

****
Doesn't make sense??? Again are you Jewish??? Blind. Read it in their Bible if the K.J. is not clear enough? Both chapters state the same BOTTOM LINE TRUTH!
****

You know, God is creditable!! So then it has got to be found in times past!:wink:

Common JB, history isn't finished yet so your statement is bogus.... :wink:

****
What you just said above here is not what I said, it is what God said in these Eccles. verses! READ IT AGAIN, THE GODHEAD DOCUMENTS BOTH FORWARD AND BACKWARD REPEATS!! You check His last few verses of His Book for [our] Warnings! The real trouble with your 1/2 understanding of the Eccl. verses is that you limit God's road map for understanding! Just one case in point: What was before the rebellion on earth? And what was before Adam?? :fadein: [God DOCUMENTS] this in the Eccl. verses for only some? :roll: But these some had included Pauls 'Gentile' believers as seen in his penned 'Inspiration' quote, of Romans 10:15-18. Paul & these were surely familier with the hope for Christ's PROMISED RETURN as seen in Matthew 24:14, huh? (For Forum awake ones only! :wink
****

 

[Georges]

[quote="John the Baptist":2f8b5]

Um.....back to the original subject......

anyone have a serious.....reason....... why the mark will not be a false shin, as that provides the best explanation of what it is?

False Messiah.......True Messiah (Jesus)
False Prophet........True Prophet (Elijah)
False mark...........Legitimate mark

It's a battle of counterfeits......Satan, the master counterfeiter?


Anyone out there with any Jewish studies in their background?

*****
John here:
You use the one verse from Eccl. at your ending of your posts, why not use both of history repeats, & then go find the First application to the Mark of the Beast final testing?

John here: You have everything messed up friend. (are you Jewish?)

No, I'm not Jewish....I'm pushing 50 and up until I was in my early 40's I was a lifelong Lutheran (very involved) Trinitarian. In my quest of my Lutheran heritage and interest in Christian history and doctrine origin, I stumbled upon the Jewish roots of Christianity....Been studying that for almost 10 years now. So, I've been on both sides of the coin and know the arguments for each side. Fortunately for me (grace of God?) the Jewish roots perspective have made a lot of things very clear, so believe me I'm not confused on the issues.

That is like Adam was a Jew, or that S.& G. is not an example for all, or Revelation 17:5 ones are all Gentile, yet we see Revelation 3:9 call this Synagogue the ones calling them self Jews, but do lie. And on & ON! Way TOO MANY ALL INCLUDED ones to mention. Other tongues of Acts, Leviticus 17:8-9 Day of Atonement!!!

That is like what, and what? What in the world are you talking about? With all due respect I can't answer your post here because it is very muddled and incoherent...


*****

The Mark of the Beast doesn't apply to Israel...only those who follow the beast....so there doesn't need to be precedence set...Ezekiel 8,9 sets a precedence of the mark of God on the 144000, it also speaks about the future desolation of the temple by Antiochus and/or the future abomination of the temple by the future False messiah. I will research to see if any had received the mark of God during Antiochus' time.

As far as "History repeating itself", obviously it will not be exact but in type it will. However, Antiochus' desecration of the Temple in History past will (according to Jesus) happen again in the future...personally I wouldn't be surprised if it happens on the same day as it had in the past. Another example of history repeating itself, the 1st and 2nd Jewish Temples being destroyed on the same day (different years). If we live long enough we may see Israel split into 2 states just like in history past, and that the battles fought in Israel will be repeated again.

****
There is not scripture backing up 'your' theory, just words! Ezekiel 9 & the Matthew 25:1-12 finds the second history will find [again] a shut door, (Matthew 23:38 again ='s Revelation Revelation 3:9) a Midnight Cry & an ALL SLEEPING church! Also another [TWO TIME} REJECTION OF CHRIST.

Yikes......You are going to be a hard cookie to deal with....but not because of an intellectual basis....it's just that I'm not sure I can unravel your post and organize it in a cohesive manner. You appear to be rambling with no direction. I mean no disrespect, maybe I'm the one with the problem of trying to figure out what you are getting at....but here goes.

It is just theory as you say....it may be coincidence that there is a mark placed on the foreheads of the righteous in Eze 9 and the mark on the foreheads of the 144000 in the future...etc. As to your ref of Mat 25:1-12, go study the Jewish roots especially, the connection between the ancient Jewish wedding ceremony and Rosh Hashanah. You will have a different perspective (somehow I doubt it though) of that passage. I will be glad however to present it to you if you wish..

A future occurence of Eze 9 will happen before the prophetical events of Mat 25.

Who Awakened these ones is the question? Only one way to know, and it DOES NOT GET AWAKENED FROM THE INSIDE YOKED MEMBERSHIP, huh? :wink: (with you too appearing asleep! )

Yeh....sure....OK..... :silly:


Even down to the 70 AD Slaughter of Ezekiel 9's REPEAT of Israel which we find in the counterpart of 666 for the whole world this time around, all those who [again] claim to be God servers. : But few are.
****

The 70's Slaughter of Ezekiel 9's repeat of Israel????? I don't even know what to say....and be kind.....I'm perplexed at how to continue responding in a serious manner.


If one believes what they post & what God's Word says?

See both Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. Then take the 666 last testing before Christians enter their land of Canaan & see what the first 'exact' test was before the children of Israel were to enter their land of Canaan

Huh....? Please restate....doesn't make sense...

****
Doesn't make sense???

NO.....I would like to hear someone else make sense of what you are writing about....maybe it is just your style of writing.....but I have trouble (and that doesn't occur too often with any others) in deciphering what you are getting at.

Again are you Jewish??? Blind.

Not Jewish......and because I present a different perspective than what you are used to....I'm Blind?.....maybe....but if your interpretation is the alternative....please furnish me with a good looking seeing eye dog, cause I prefer not to look through your eyes....all due respect of course...

Read it in their Bible if the K.J. is not clear enough? Both chapters state the same BOTTOM LINE TRUTH!
****

Yes...they do....

You know, God is creditable!! So then it has got to be found in times past!:wink:

Common JB, history isn't finished yet so your statement is bogus.... :wink:

****
What you just said above here is not what I said, it is what God said in these Eccles. verses! READ IT AGAIN, THE GODHEAD DOCUMENTS BOTH FORWARD AND BACKWARD REPEATS!! You check His last few verses of His Book for [our] Warnings!



The real trouble with your 1/2 understanding of the Eccl. verses is that you limit God's road map for understanding!

Whatever.....

Just one case in point: What was before the rebellion on earth? And what was before Adam?? :fadein: [God DOCUMENTS] this in the Eccl. verses for only some? :roll:

The only thing I can say is...... :silly:

But these some had included Pauls 'Gentile' believers as seen in his penned 'Inspiration' quote, of Romans 10:15-18.

The only thing I can say is .....:silly:

Paul & these were surely familiar with the hope for Christ's PROMISED RETURN as seen in Matthew 24:14, huh? (For Forum awake ones only! :wink

The only thing I can say is ....:silly:

****

[/quote:2f8b5]

My response in green....

Sorry for those in posterland....I really don't know how to respond to Jabs post and was getting a little frustrated. I tried to respond in a coherent manner to an incoherent rebuttal. JB, if you want to try again with an easier to understand post, I will engage. If they are like this....it is a waste of time.