6 point proof for the post trib rapture.

[freeway]

Watchman says:
#2 1st Thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the resurrection of the just/rapture is at the 2nd coming.

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
This does not infer that this coming of the Lord is after the tribulation but simply saying that the dead shall be raised and changed into their immortal bodies before we Christians are.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
This is Christ coming for His bride “church†little history lesson. Did you know that in a Jewish wedding when the couple where set or arranged to be married the Groom would leave and go prepare the place, home for the bride. While the bride is getting herself ready and waiting for the Groom to return. Then When the Father gave the word the Groom would go and get his Bride and bring her back to his home.. Christ said I go to make a place for you, if I go I will return and receive you to myself that where I am you may be also. “my paraphrasing’. Now if you are saying this is proof of a post rap, then we the church bride will not go to the home that Christ has prepared in heaven. Then after the 1000 yr reign of Christ the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, still we have not gone to the home He has prepared.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
We which are alive, does not mean it has to be after the trib. “caught up†in the Greek is harpazo, the strongest word for taken, forcibly removed. If we are to meet the Lord in the air and then come right back down again we did not go to the home He Jesus promised us. Yes we will always be with the Lord, that point is clear.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.

will not let me highlight this part in red to long.
"""No problem here, simply saying that through Adam’s death sin had entered the world and we became slaves to it. But through Christ and His resurrection “ firstfruit†Him being the first to be raised in a new gloried body. That we will receive a gloried body, be it pre, mid or post rapture."""

 

[freeway]

watchman says:
#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
True Jesus will return and there will be Christians alive. But at the second coming after the 7 yr trib, those believers are gather and will enter into the 1000 yr millennium. There is no changing here in a blink of an eye. Those believers will re-populate the world. But here He Jesus is coming in the clouds, and those believer that are alive will be changed into immortal bodies just has the saints of old has at this time. In a blinking of an eye. Two separate times two comings.
More on the history of a Jewish wedding. The bible writer is taking into account that the reader knows about the Jewish wedding and all customs that come along with it.. Tradition has the bridegroom arriving to collect his bride at night and the bride’s unmarried friends who attend to the bride provide light for the groom who comes at night. This is a traditional custom and for friends bridesmaids to light candles in the processional or during the veiling ceremony. “ the ten virgins with there lamp fullâ€
(Matthew 25:1-13)
Also, the bridegroom did not know when he would return…only his father did. Sound familiar. When the bridegroom’s father was satisfied with the work on the new home done by the bridegroom he would release his son to gather up his bride…he did this with the sounding of trumpets. The groomsmen would run ahead of the groom, sound the Shofar, and shout that he was coming. While the father’s of the bride’s head was turned, the groom would steal his bride and carry her back to his father’s house where he prepared the bridal chamber.
(John 3:29; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Matthew 24:36) This coming says we do not know when the Groom is coming. But if you are referring these verse to the end of the age ie 7yr trib. Then all you need to do as a Christian is when you see the antichrist desecrate the Jewish temple is add 1260 days and look up for the sign of the coming Messiah. Also Jesus talks about coming as a thief in the night, and for us to keep an eye out because no one knows when He is coming ie only the father knows. If a thief is coming in the night he will not turn on flood lights to the house he is going to break into, “rapture†but at the second coming Jesus is giving the world a sign letting them know He is Coming… So the trumpet you see here are of the wedding feast, not the trumpet of judgment in the 7yr trib on a non believing world.
Footnote, I am trying to keep this as short a possible…
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

True very true we will be changed, but everyone at the second comein will re-populate the world.

 

[freeway]

watchman says:
#4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.
Luke 17:26-30

26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The days of Noah, Jesus is giving us an example of times past. They were laughing and marring having children life was as it had always been “normal†then destruction can upon them. No warning other than Noah building an Ark, Also it is believe at the time of Noah it did not rain, so when God shut Noah and his family in the Ark the rain began to fall. Note Noah did not have to tread water like the rest of the populist but God took in out of the Judgement “A preview of the rapture?†and placed him securely in the ark. Up until then life was normal “ie before the rapture and the 7yr trib begins. Now at the end of the 7yr trib life is far from normal, Three quarters of the population is dead. The oceans have turned to blood. There is no green vegetation it has all been destroyed by locust, fire and I believe nuclear bombs. Demons from the pit of hell has torchered men, etc etc..Life is far from normal.

28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

freeway says:
"""""Again here it is showing how God provided a way out. The angels came and hurried Lot and his family out. You can say “Harpazo†forceably rushed, do not look back kind of thing. But God delivered them out, then the fire and brimstone fell, note Lots and his family did not have to take refuse in a building in the middle of the out pouring of the judgement of God."""""

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

freeway says:
No where here is it said that we the “church†are in the mix of the judgements of God. True there is Christian that have come to Christ during the trib. These believers are the ones that are going to re-populate the world, the ones that don’t get beheaded in the tribulation away. Do you not find it strange that the church is not mentioned at all after chapter 4 until we come back with Jesus on horses and white robes in chapter 19 . If the church is here, my question to you would be the reason for the two witness that converts 144,000 Jews to preach the gospel and the angels flying overhead toward the end to the trib shouting the Gospel of the Kingdom and to not take the mark of the beast. Why would this duty fall to others. Why because I believe we are in heaven at our home that Jesus has prepared for us for the wedding feast.

 

[freeway]

Watchman says:
#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

freeway says"
Again true no argument here, here to is showing that anyone calls on Jesus, Jesus will save them, The Father sends us to Jesus, then Jesus brings us to the Father.. The last day here and the resurrection here is all saints, all will receive a gloried body. No problem here for me. These verses in no way say we as believer will go through the great tribulation.

 

[freeway]

watchman says:
#6 Rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

freeway says:
This is not talking about the judgement of the believer which will happen at the berma seat of Christ, where the rewards are given out to the saints. The judgement of saints and sinners alone are given to Jesus. This is “notice thrones and they†are we not to reign with Christ for a thousand years here on earth. This is Christians before the second coming of Christ that has been either raptured or killed for their belief in Jesus.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

These are those who rejected Christ. The Great White Throne.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Here again it is Christians throughout the ages.. No judgement in Jesus only life. Whether we all reign on thrones I don’t know or a select few I don’t know. This in no way implies the rapture has to be after the 7 yr trib, again those believer will re-populate the world.


Therefore the pretrib rapture as well as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible

freeway says:
This is a small sample of what I believe points to a pre trib rapture, and in no way can I say with 100% proof that it is going to happen this way. All I can do is pray for a pre trib rapture, and prepare for a 7 yr tribulation.

I could not put everything I wrote in red but you can see my answers...

 

[XTruth]

The word rapture simply means to transport from one place to another. The Scriptural expressions equated with rapture are "caught up" (1 Thess. 4:17; 2 Cor. 12:4); "receive you unto myself" (John. 14:3); and "come up hither" (Rev. 4:1; Rev 11:12). When we use the term, we mean the "catching up" of Christians to meet the Lord in the air, who then go to the planet heaven with Christ to become settled in their eternal mansions that He has gone to prepare for them who serve Him until death-or until the time of the rapture (1 Thess. 2:19;1 Thess 3:13;1 Thess 4:13-18; Phil. 3:20-21; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 4:1).

When we refer to the rapture we do not mean the second coming of Christ, or any part, stage, or phase of it. The rapture is a distinct and separate coming of the Lord with at least seven years between the two comings out of heaven.

Sorry but if you had read the O.P. with open eyes and an open heart would weould have seen the fiirst two point

#1 The rapture is at the coming of Christ.
#2 The coming of Christ is after the Trib.
guess when that puts the rapture?

Use wisdom with your rebuttals watchmanf... I could just as easily say your eyes, ears and heart are closed as you read my reply to you. Everyone believes an opposing doctrinal belief is teaching another gospel and/or another Jesus.... so use wisdom...

Focussing on ALL verses concerning BOTH events will let you SEE that they ARE (2) two separate events at (2) two separate times...

His Coming = 7 yrs after Rapture when He comes to earth WITH the saints (Isa.63:1-6; Dan.2:44-45; 7:13-14, 18, 27; Joel 3; Zech.14:1-5, 9, 16-21; Mat.24:29-31; 25:31-46; 2 Thes.1:7-10; 2:8; Jude 14-15; Rev.1:7; 19:11-16; 20:1-3). Rapture = Before the 7 Yr Trib. When He comes back FOR the saints (1 Cor.15:23, 51-54; Jn.14:1-3; Lk.21:34-36; 2 Cor.5:1-8; Eph.5:27; Phil.3:11, 20-21; 1 Thes.2:19; 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:9, 23; 2 Thes.2:1, 7; Col.3:4; Jas.5:7-8; 1 Jn.2:28; 3:2; 1 Pt.5:4; Rev.4:1).

These two comings should not be confused. The scriptures that apply to one do not apply to the other. Not one passage refers to both events as if they were one. These two distinct comings are separated by several years, so they aren't two stages or phases of one coming.

The rapture is the first of the two comings, not a coming to earth but in the air. It could not be the second coming because Christ does not come to the earth to live here and fulfill a mission as He did at the first coming. When Christ meets the saints in the air He takes them back to heaven with Him and presents them before the Father's throne where they remain during the time the tribulation is running its course on the earth (1 Thes. 3:13; John 14:1-3). Christ does not remain in the air with the saints when they meet Him as in 1 Thes. 4:13-17. The marriage supper and the judgment of saints take place in heaven, then at the second coming after the tribulation Christ and the saints leave heaven together to come down to the earth (2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 19). The rapture is the time Christ comes for the saints to take them to heaven.

The second coming is the time He comes to the earth to live here and fulfil a mission. This is the time He comes from heaven with the saints, having raptured them at least seven years before. The second coming cannot take place until all of Rev. 1:1-19:21 is fulfilled while the rapture can take place any moment without anything being fulfilled.

Scriptures on the Rapture-Christ's Coming FOR the Saints:

1. Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things ... and to stand before the Son of man (Luke 21:34).

2. In My Father's house are many mansions ... I go to prepare a place for you ... I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also (John 14:1-3).

3. We shall not all sleep (die physically), but we shall all be changed. In a moment ... at the last trump ... the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (the living) shall be changed ... put on immortality ... then ... death is swallowed up in victory (1 Cor. 15:51-56).

4. Christ loved the church ... that He might present it to Himself (Ephes. 5:25-27).

5. From whence (heaven) also we look for ... Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body (Phil. 3:11,20-21; 2 Cor. 5:1-9).

6. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven ... the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (note on earth, to go back to heaven with Him; 1 Thes. 4:13-18; 1 Thes. 2:19; 1 Thes. 3:13; 1 Thes. 5:9,23).

7. We beseech you ... by our gathering together unto Him ... until he be taken out of the way (2 Thes. 2:1,7-8, notes).

8. When Christ ... shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory (Col. 3:4; 1 John 2:28; 1 John 3:2; 1 Peter 5:4).

9. Be patient ... unto the coming of the Lord... until He receive the early and latter rain (James 5:7-8).

Scriptures on the Second Coming-Christ's Coming WITH the Saints:

1. One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages shall serve Him (Daniel 2:44-45; Daniel 7:13-14; Daniel 18; Daniel 27).

2. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations ... His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which ... shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west ... the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee (Zech. 14:1-5,9,16-21).

3. Immediately after the tribulation ... then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matthew 24:29-31).

4. When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. And before Him shall be gathered all nations (Matthew 25:31-46).

5. When the Lord shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God (2 Thes. 1:7-10; 2 Thes. 2:8).

6. The Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all ... that are ungodly (Jude 1:14-15).

7. He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him ... all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him ... the armies of heaven followed Him upon white horses (Rev. 1:7. See 1 Thes. 19:11-21; 1 Thes. 20:1-3; Isaiah 63:1-6; Joel 3).

 

[watchman F]

The word rapture simply means to transport from one place to another. The Scriptural expressions equated with rapture are "caught up" (1 Thess. 4:17; 2 Cor. 12:4); "receive you unto myself" (John. 14:3); and "come up hither" (Rev. 4:1; Rev 11:12). When we use the term, we mean the "catching up" of Christians to meet the Lord in the air, who then go to the planet heaven with Christ to become settled in their eternal mansions that He has gone to prepare for them who serve Him until death-or until the time of the rapture (1 Thess. 2:19;1 Thess 3:13;1 Thess 4:13-18; Phil. 3:20-21; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 4:1).

When we refer to the rapture we do not mean the second coming of Christ, or any part, stage, or phase of it. The rapture is a distinct and separate coming of the Lord with at least seven years between the two comings out of heaven.

Sorry but if you had read the O.P. with open eyes and an open heart would weould have seen the fiirst two point

#1 The rapture is at the coming of Christ.
#2 The coming of Christ is after the Trib.
guess when that puts the rapture?

Use wisdom with your rebuttals watchmanf... I could just as easily say your eyes, ears and heart are closed as you read my reply to you. Everyone believes an opposing doctrinal belief is teaching another gospel and/or another Jesus.... so use wisdom...

If you believe that anyone that teaches any false doctrine at all is teaching another gospel or another Jesus, then I suggest you denounce the false belief of the pretrib rapture and truly search out the truth of God's word, instead of appeasing your heart with a false promise.

 

[XTruth]

Use wisdom with your rebuttals watchmanf... I could just as easily say your eyes, ears and heart are closed as you read my reply to you. Everyone believes an opposing doctrinal belief is teaching another gospel and/or another Jesus.... so use wisdom...

If you believe that anyone that teaches any false doctrine at all is teaching another gospel or another Jesus, then I suggest you denounce the false belief of the pretrib rapture and truly search out the truth of God's word, instead of appeasing your heart with a false promise.

Do you research your Bible like you've researched the verses from my reply? I see you've quoted me by leaving out ALL that Scripture ... I don't hold a belief and then find Scripture to back it up. As Ive said and shown, I bring EVERY SINGLE verse to a grouping and then shape my belief around the Word. If the Word said the Rapture was at the end of the Tribulation and ALL saints would go through it, then I would say okay so be it Lord.

 

[XTruth]

Focussing on ALL verses concerning BOTH events will let you SEE that they ARE (2) two separate events at (2) two separate times...

His Coming = 7 yrs after Rapture when He comes to earth WITH the saints (Isa.63:1-6; Dan.2:44-45; 7:13-14, 18, 27; Joel 3; Zech.14:1-5, 9, 16-21; Mat.24:29-31; 25:31-46; 2 Thes.1:7-10; 2:8; Jude 14-15; Rev.1:7; 19:11-16; 20:1-3). Rapture = Before the 7 Yr Trib. When He comes back FOR the saints (1 Cor.15:23, 51-54; Jn.14:1-3; Lk.21:34-36; 2 Cor.5:1-8; Eph.5:27; Phil.3:11, 20-21; 1 Thes.2:19; 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:9, 23; 2 Thes.2:1, 7; Col.3:4; Jas.5:7-8; 1 Jn.2:28; 3:2; 1 Pt.5:4; Rev.4:1).

These two comings should not be confused. The scriptures that apply to one do not apply to the other. Not one passage refers to both events as if they were one. These two distinct comings are separated by several years, so they aren't two stages or phases of one coming.

The rapture is the first of the two comings, not a coming to earth but in the air. It could not be the second coming because Christ does not come to the earth to live here and fulfill a mission as He did at the first coming. When Christ meets the saints in the air He takes them back to heaven with Him and presents them before the Father's throne where they remain during the time the tribulation is running its course on the earth (1 Thes. 3:13; John 14:1-3). Christ does not remain in the air with the saints when they meet Him as in 1 Thes. 4:13-17. The marriage supper and the judgment of saints take place in heaven, then at the second coming after the tribulation Christ and the saints leave heaven together to come down to the earth (2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 19). The rapture is the time Christ comes for the saints to take them to heaven.

The second coming is the time He comes to the earth to live here and fulfil a mission. This is the time He comes from heaven with the saints, having raptured them at least seven years before. The second coming cannot take place until all of Rev. 1:1-19:21 is fulfilled while the rapture can take place any moment without anything being fulfilled.

Scriptures on the Rapture-Christ's Coming FOR the Saints:

1. Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things ... and to stand before the Son of man (Luke 21:34).

2. In My Father's house are many mansions ... I go to prepare a place for you ... I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also (John 14:1-3).

3. We shall not all sleep (die physically), but we shall all be changed. In a moment ... at the last trump ... the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (the living) shall be changed ... put on immortality ... then ... death is swallowed up in victory (1 Cor. 15:51-56).

4. Christ loved the church ... that He might present it to Himself (Ephes. 5:25-27).

5. From whence (heaven) also we look for ... Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body (Phil. 3:11,20-21; 2 Cor. 5:1-9).

6. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven ... the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (note on earth, to go back to heaven with Him; 1 Thes. 4:13-18; 1 Thes. 2:19; 1 Thes. 3:13; 1 Thes. 5:9,23).

7. We beseech you ... by our gathering together unto Him ... until he be taken out of the way (2 Thes. 2:1,7-8, notes).

8. When Christ ... shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory (Col. 3:4; 1 John 2:28; 1 John 3:2; 1 Peter 5:4).

9. Be patient ... unto the coming of the Lord... until He receive the early and latter rain (James 5:7-8).

Scriptures on the Second Coming-Christ's Coming WITH the Saints:

1. One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages shall serve Him (Daniel 2:44-45; Daniel 7:13-14; Daniel 18; Daniel 27).

2. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations ... His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which ... shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west ... the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee (Zech. 14:1-5,9,16-21).

3. Immediately after the tribulation ... then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matthew 24:29-31).

4. When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. And before Him shall be gathered all nations (Matthew 25:31-46).

5. When the Lord shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God (2 Thes. 1:7-10; 2 Thes. 2:8).

6. The Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all ... that are ungodly (Jude 1:14-15).

7. He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him ... all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him ... the armies of heaven followed Him upon white horses (Rev. 1:7. See 1 Thes. 19:11-21; 1 Thes. 20:1-3; Isaiah 63:1-6; Joel 3).

 

[watchman F]

Use wisdom with your rebuttals watchmanf... I could just as easily say your eyes, ears and heart are closed as you read my reply to you. Everyone believes an opposing doctrinal belief is teaching another gospel and/or another Jesus.... so use wisdom...

If you believe that anyone that teaches any false doctrine at all is teaching another gospel or another Jesus, then I suggest you denounce the false belief of the pretrib rapture and truly search out the truth of God's word, instead of appeasing your heart with a false promise.

Do you research your Bible like you've researched the verses from my reply? I see you've quoted me by leaving out ALL that Scripture ... I don't hold a belief and then find Scripture to back it up. As Ive said and shown, I bring EVERY SINGLE verse to a grouping and then shape my belief around the Word. If the Word said the Rapture was at the end of the Tribulation and ALL saints would go through it, then I would say okay so be it Lord.

I do not believe you. I believe you were a pretribbers and then were told what scripture taught it. On the contrary I was raised pretrib, and believe it all my life, until I truly got saved and started studying scripture for myself. It wasn't I that formed the scriptures to become post trib, but it was the scriptures that formed me to become post trib. Anyone that studies the Bible with no preconceived ideas only searching for the truth no matter what that truth may be would all reach the post trib conclusion.

 

[XTruth]

Interesting theory... but obviously incorrect

 

[XTruth]

20 CONTRASTS BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND ADVENT

1. The rapture is a going up to heaven of all saved men of all past ages (John. 14:1-3; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), whereas the second advent is a coming down from heaven to earth of the same people (Rev. 19:11-21; Jude 14-15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 16:27; Mt 24:29-31; Mt 25:31-46; Zech. 14:1-9).

2. The rapture is a coming of Christ from heaven to the clouds (not to the earth) for the saints-both dead (who will be resurrected) and alive-to take them to heaven (1 Thess. 4:16), while the second advent is a coming from heaven with the previously raptured saints to set up a kingdom and rule eternally (Zech. 14:1-9; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11-21; Rev 22:4-5; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 25:31-46; Isa. 9:6-7; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-15,18,22,27; Lk. 1:32-36).

3. Our goal in the rapture is heaven to live with Christ in our mansions (John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8), while the goal in the second advent is to leave heaven for the earth to reign forever (Zech. 14; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11 - Rev 20:10).

4. At the rapture Christ does not come to destroy the Antichrist or any other wicked man but to remove the hinderer of lawlessness (the church, Chapter 10, Proof 1), so that the Antichrist can come (2 Thess. 2:7-8), while at the second advent Christ comes back to the earth with all saints of all ages to destroy Antichrist and multitudes of wicked men (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 7:11; Jude 14-15; Rev. 19:11-21; see also Mt. 24:37-42;Mt 25:31-46; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14).

5. At the rapture Christ comes from heaven to the clouds only (not to the earth) to take the good from among the bad (John. 5:28-29; John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:16-18; Jas. 5:7-8), while at the second advent-years later-He comes to the earth with His raptured saints to take the bad from among the good (Mt. 13:30,39-43,49-50;Mt 24:29-31,37-42; Jude 14-15; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14; Rev. 19:11-21).

6. At the rapture only those qualified for heaven will be raptured (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 20:4-6); only those who are born again will be changed from mortality to immortality and go to heaven. At the second advent, on the other hand, any and all men qualified to live on the earth as citizens will be permitted to continue as natural people into the next age, without any change from mortality to immortality (Mt. 25:31-46; Zech. 8:23;Zech 14:1-21; Isa. 2:2-4;Isa 66:19-21; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-14; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 2:27-28; Rev 11:15; Rev 20:4-6).

7. At the rapture there will be no battle of Armageddon (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16), while at the second advent Armageddon will be fought (Zech. 14; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Jude 14-15; Rev. 16:13-16; Rev 19:11-21; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39).

8. At the rapture there will be no change of home lands on earth among the nations (John. 14:1-3), while at the second advent there will be a general separation of nations back to their original home lands, including Israel (Isa. 11:11-12; Deut 32:8; Ezek. 37; Mt. 24:31; Acts 17:26).

9. At the rapture no man will be sent to hell, but all saints will be taken to heaven (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), while at the second advent millions of men will be sent to hell and none taken to heaven (Mt. 13:30,43-50;Mt 25:31-46; Isa. 14:9-15; Rev. 14:9-11; Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10).

10. At the rapture all saints will "escape all these things that shall come to pass" during the tribulation, and will "stand before the Son of man" (Lk. 21:34-36; John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 4:16;1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; see Chapter 10), whereas at the second advent no man who is subject to punishment will escape (Rev. 19:1-21; Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

11. The rapture will take place before the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:7-8) and before the tribulation and fulfillment of Rev. 4:1 - Rev 22:21, while the second advent will take place after these events (Mt. 24:29-31; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:11-21). See Chapter 10.

12. At the rapture there will be a resurrection of all the righteous dead (1 Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21), while at the second advent there will be no resurrection of any righteous man, for the first resurrection will then be over (Rev. 20:4-6).

13. At the time of the rapture no man on earth will know who the Antichrist is (2 Thess. 2:7-8), whereas at the second advent all men on earth in the civilized parts will know who he is (Rev. 13:16-18).

14. At the rapture the church and all others who are redeemed saints at that time will be presented to God in heaven (Eph. 5:27; 1 Thess. 3:13;1 Thess 5:23), while at the second advent all raptured saints will be presented to men on earth as their new rulers (Rev. 2:27; Rev 5:10; Rev 20:4-6; Dan. 7:9-27).

15. Before the rapture there will be no marriage supper of the Lamb, whereas just before the second advent there will be such a supper of Christ with all the redeemed of all ages past (Rev. 19:1-21).

16. There will be a seven-year period of tribulation after the rapture (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21), whereas there will be no tribulation at all after the second advent, for the second coming of Christ ends all tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; Rev. 19-20).

17. There will be no end of the world (age) at the time of the rapture, while the age will definitely end at the time of the second advent of Christ to the earth (Mt. 24:1-3,29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 19:1 - Rev 20:10).

18. The rapture is an event that can take place any day without any prophecy being fulfilled or any sign coming to pass (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:21; Tit. 2:13; 1 Thess. 1:10), while the second advent cannot take place until all of the predictions in Mt. 24 - Mt. 25; Mk 13; Lk. 21:1-11,25-33; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; and Rev. 4:1 - Rev 19:10 have been fulfilled.

19. There will be no reign of the Antichrist before the rapture, but there will be such a reign before the second advent (Dan. 9:27; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21).

20. There will be no martyrdoms of saints after the second advent, while there will be multitudes of martyrs after the rapture and between the time of the rapture and the second advent (Rev. 6:9-11; Rev 7:9-17; Rev 13:7; Rev 14:9-13; Rev 15:1-4; Rev 17:6; Rev 18:24; Rev 20:4-6).



We conclude then, that if the church and all other raptured saints are to eat a marriage supper with Christ in heaven (as in Rev. 19:1-10), which happens just before the second advent begins (as in Rev. 19:11-21), then the church cannot remain on earth through the tribulation period. It must arrive in heaven prior to the time of the second advent. Furthermore, if the saints are to leave with Christ at the second advent they must already be up in heaven before that time so as to be able to return with Him. And since the rapture can take place at any moment (as taught in 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Phil. 3:21 and Tit. 2:13)-since it could have happened even in Paul's day according to these passages of Scripture-then we can be certain that the rapture will not take place at a specified time as in the case of the second advent which is predicted to happen at a particular time-that is, at the end of the tribulation period (Mt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21). This, to us, is truly conclusive proof that the rapture of the church and O.T. saints will take place before the tribulation begins.

 

[watchman F]

Once again you have just went to pretrib site copied and pasted their propaganda. I choose to believe God and His Word, not doctrines of man.

 

[watchman F]

Pretrib ''Theologians'' teach that Jesus comes before the tribulation, secretly in the clouds, to snatch the church from the earth, and take us to Heaven. So that we will miss the tribulation period, spending it in Heaven, celebrating the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. While the unbelievers are left behind to suffer the wrath of God here on earth.
Sounds real nice, only problem is, the Bible never teaches that Jesus comes before the tribulation. It doesn't say there will be a secret return of Christ at all. It never teaches us that we go to Heaven after the resurrection and/ or ''rapture'' of the just. The Bible does not say that we will miss the tribulation period, nor does it say when or where the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place. You will not find any aspect of the pretrib teaching in scripture.
The Bible does teach however that Jesus will come to the earth twice, once to be the sacrifice for our sins and secondly to set up his Kingdom here on earth. He came the first time 2,000 years ago and fulfilled His obligation as the sacrificial Lamb of God, and He is returning a second time after the tribulation, before the Millennium, to resurrect the just, catch away the living saints, bring judgment to the wicked, and declare his Kingship here on earth.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear a second time without sin unto salvation.
There is no mention in scripture of a partial coming or secret coming (where He doesn't really return because His feet didn't touch the ground, but instead He just came in the clouds to get the church and go back to Heaven) nor is there any mention of a third coming of Christ.
This entire belief system is based on conjecture, speculation, and false hope created by Satan to keep the church unaware and unprepared for the perilous times to come. Which we will have to face all types of persecutions even martyrdom for Christ sake (yes even here in America). However if we suffer for Christ we shall also reign with him during the Millennium.
2nd Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him, if we deny Him, He will also deny us.
Another teaching of the pretrib ''Theologian'' is that of ''imminency''. They stake their whole belief of the thought that Jesus could return any moment of any day. They teach that the Apostles believed this, and taught it, but that is not true. Jesus told Peter in front of John in John 21:18 that he would live to be old, then die and he told him how he would die.
John 21:18-19b
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, when thou wast young, thy girdedst thyself, and walkedst where thy wouldest: but when thou shall be old, thou shall strech forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thou where thou wouldest not.
19b This spake He signifying by what death he should glorify God.
So either Jesus was a false prophet or He was not returning until after Peter's death. I guarantee you Peter neither believed nor taught in the any moment return of Christ, Peter knew it would not be in his life time. Jesus taught of many other things that must come to pass before He can return that have yet to occur. Paul states in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 that the anti christ must be revealed before the second coming or the gathering together (resurrection of the just and rapture of the saints) could take place.
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
So either Jesus Himself as well as Paul are both false prophets, or the imminent, any day, any moment return of Christ is a false teaching.
Pretribbers also teach that the Church and Israel are two entirely separate entities. That God dealt with Israel before the cross, but since the cross He has been dealing with the Church, but after the rapture He will once again turn His attention toward Israel. This is also a false teaching, but it is desperately needed by pretrib believers to support their theory. It helps them to explain the need for the church to be removed before the tribulation, why there are ''saints'' here on earth during the Tribulation, and why there is going to be a gathering of God's people after the tribulation. The problem is not only do they have no scripture to corroborate this belief, but it directly opposes what the Bible does teach on the matter. Here are a few passages on what God does have to say about the union between Israel and the Church.
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord is rich unto all that call upon his name.

Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into there own olive tree?

Romans 12:5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one member one of another.

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 6:15-16
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.
12 That at times past you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonweath of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandment in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you that were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of us all, who is above all, and through us all, and in you all.

We can clearly see that scripture teaches, the Jew and Gentile/Israel and the Church have become one new man. That there is only one Faith, and that we are all apart of the same body in Christ. That a Jew is not one that is a Jew outwardly, but a Jew is one that is one inwardly circumcised in the heart by the Spirit, regardless of blood line. Scripture tells us that believing Gentiles have been grafted into the good Olive Tree which is Israel, who's root is Christ, and whoever has been baptized into Christ, have become citizens of the true Israel of God with the saints, being seeds of Abraham, heirs according to the promise. We have not replaced Israel at all, but we are included with them in all the promises of God, being one with and equal to them, not separate from them in any way.
Have you ever told a lie and then had to tell another lie to cover up the first one? Well, that is what pretribbers have done here. They have made up the separation of the Church and Israel doctrine to support the false teaching of the pretrib rapture.

 

[XTruth]

Once again you have just went to pretrib site copied and pasted their propaganda. I choose to believe God and His Word, not doctrines of man.

It's from the Dakes notes in my Bible... AS IF IT mattered whether I did the research or another as to whether it be the truth. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel... I couldn't have said what I posted better myself. What makes a doctrine the one of man or the one of God is whether or not God has said it... I see 2 separate events with at least 7 yrs separating the 2 events...

This is my own gathering... as if it mattered concerning the truth of Scripture...

His Coming = 7 yrs after Rapture when He comes to earth WITH the saints (Isa.63:1-6; Dan.2:44-45; 7:13-14, 18, 27; Joel 3; Zech.14:1-5, 9, 16-21; Mat.24:29-31; 25:31-46; 2 Thes.1:7-10; 2:8; Jude 14-15; Rev.1:7; 19:11-16; 20:1-3). Rapture = Before the 7 Yr Trib. When He comes back FOR the saints (1 Cor.15:23, 51-54; Jn.14:1-3; Lk.21:34-36; 2 Cor.5:1-8; Eph.5:27; Phil.3:11, 20-21; 1 Thes.2:19; 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:9, 23; 2 Thes.2:1, 7; Col.3:4; Jas.5:7-8; 1 Jn.2:28; 3:2; 1 Pt.5:4; Rev.4:1).

 

[XTruth]

Paul states in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 that the anti christ must be revealed before the second coming or the gathering together (resurrection of the just and rapture of the saints) could take place.
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
So either Jesus Himself as well as Paul are both false prophets, or the imminent, any day, any moment return of Christ is a false teaching.
Pretribbers also teach that the Church and Israel are two entirely separate entities. That God dealt with Israel before the cross, but since the cross He has been dealing with the Church, but after the rapture He will once again turn His attention toward Israel. This is also a false teaching, but it is desperately needed by pretrib believers to support their theory. It helps them to explain the need for the church to be removed before the tribulation, why there are ''saints'' here on earth during the Tribulation, and why there is going to be a gathering of God's people after the tribulation. The problem is not only do they have no scripture to corroborate this belief, but it directly opposes what the Bible does teach on the matter. Here are a few passages on what God does have to say about the union between Israel and the Church.
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord is rich unto all that call upon his name.

Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into there own olive tree?

Romans 12:5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one member one of another.

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 6:15-16
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.
12 That at times past you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonweath of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandment in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you that were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of us all, who is above all, and through us all, and in you all.

We can clearly see that scripture teaches, the Jew and Gentile/Israel and the Church have become one new man. That there is only one Faith, and that we are all apart of the same body in Christ. That a Jew is not one that is a Jew outwardly, but a Jew is one that is one inwardly circumcised in the heart by the Spirit, regardless of blood line. Scripture tells us that believing Gentiles have been grafted into the good Olive Tree which is Israel, who's root is Christ, and whoever has been baptized into Christ, have become citizens of the true Israel of God with the saints, being seeds of Abraham, heirs according to the promise. We have not replaced Israel at all, but we are included with them in all the promises of God, being one with and equal to them, not separate from them in any way.
Have you ever told a lie and then had to tell another lie to cover up the first one? Well, that is what pretribbers have done here. They have made up the separation of the Church and Israel doctrine to support the false teaching of the pretrib rapture.

Rapture before Antichrist

The church will continue to hinder lawlessness until the rapture. And then the Antichrist will be revealed. This is conclusive proof that the rapture takes place before Daniel's 70th week and the tribulation of Rev. 6:1-19:21. According to Daniel 9:27, Antichrist will be here for 7 years, for he makes a 7-year covenant with Israel. If he is here for 7 years, which will be the last 7 years of this age, and if he who hinders lawlessness refers to the church and is taken out of the way before he comes, then the rapture will take place before the last 7 years of this age and before the Antichrist comes at the beginning of those 7 years.

 

[XTruth]

7 PROOFS OF THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION

Proof 1

In 2 Thess. 2:1-12 we have a clear proof that the church and O.T. saints will be raptured before the day of the Lord, that is before the second advent, and before the Revelation of the Antichrist, before Daniel's 70th week, before the future tribulation, and before the last seven years of this age which ends with the second advent of Christ to the earth.

In 2 Thess. 2:1-4 Paul beseeches saints not to be deceived by any means or by anybody, as to the coming of the day of the Lord, or the second advent. The two things that were to precede the day of the Lord are:



1. "A great falling away" and

2. "That man of sin be revealed" (2 Thess. 2:3).



Besides these two things Paul revealed that a third great event would take place, this one to precede the day of the Lord or second advent, and also precede the revelation of the man of sin. He said, "he who now letteth [hinders] will let [hinder] until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed" (2 Thess. 2:7-8). Thus it is clear that the hinderer of lawlessness will be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come. "Our gathering together unto him" of 2 Thess. 2:1 and the hinderer of lawlessness being "taken out of the way" of 2 Thess. 2:7-8 refer to the same event-the rapture of the church and O.T. saints before the Revelation of the Antichrist. And then-when he who hinders lawlessness is taken out of the way-shall that Wicked be revealed.

Two Comings of the Lord From Heaven,But Only One Coming to the Earth

1. A coming of the Lord out of heaven for the saints to meet them in the air and to take them to heaven without coming to the earth (1 Thess. 1:10; 1 Thess 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; 2 Thess. 2:1,7-8; John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; Col. 3:4; Eph. 5:27; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10).

2. A coming of the Lord out of heaven with His previously raptured saints to bring them to the earth to fight at Armageddon and to set up a kingdom in the world forever (Rev. 19:1-21; Jude 14-15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2 Thess 2:7-8; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Mt. 16:27; Mt 24:29-31; Mt 25:31-46; Zech. 14:1-5; Dan. 2:44-45; Dan 7:9-14,18,22,27).

Twelve Truths of 2 Thess. 2:1-12 That the Thessalonians Knew About

1. That it was possible to be deceived about the rapture and the second advent (2 Thess. 1:1-3).

2. That the day of the Lord, or the second advent, was not at hand and therefore, it was not the time for the Lord to be here reigning on earth (2 Thess. 2:3).

3. That they were not to permit themselves to be deceived (2 Thess. 2:3).

4. That the day of the Lord would begin only at the second advent (2 Thess. 2:3; Zech. 14:1-5).

5. That this day of the Lord, or the second advent, could not have already come because the great apostasy and the Revelation of the man of sin had not yet come (2 Thess. 2:3).

6. That the man of sin will take over the Jewish temple at Jerusalem and declare himself to be God (2 Thess. 2:4). See Rev. 13;Rev 14:9-11; Rev 15:1-4; Rev 20:4-6; Dan. 9:27; Mt. 24:15-22,29-31.

7. That the man of sin (the Wicked one or Antichrist) has a definite time to be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

8. That "he" who hinders lawlessness and holds back the man of sin will be entirely removed before he will fully come (2 Thess. 2:5-8).

9. That the mystery of lawlessness is already at work in the world (2 Thess. 2:7).

10. That Paul's doctrines had not changed regarding the rapture and the day of the Lord, as false teachers had reported, even forging a letter in his name (2 Thess. 2:2,5).

11. That the man of sin (Antichrist) would be destroyed by Christ at the second advent when the day of the Lord begins (2 Thess. 2:7-8). See Dan. 7:11; Rev. 19:20;Rev 20:10.

12. That Antichrist will come after the working of Satan with all power and great deceptions (2 Thess. 2:8-12). See Mt. 24:24; Rev. 13:1-18; Dan. 8:24-25; Dan 11:37-45.

Seven Other Facts About the Rapture in 1&2 Thessalonians

1. The church waits for Jesus to come from heaven (1 Thess. 1:10).

2. The church will be taken to glory (1 Thess. 2:12; cf. Col. 3:4).

3. Soul winners will have great joy at this coming (1 Thess. 2:19-20).

4. The saints will be established unblameable before God in heaven (1 Thess. 3:13).

5. Both the dead and living in Christ will be raptured to heaven to live with Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18; cf. John. 14:1-3; Phil. 3:21).

6. God has appointed all saved men to escape His latter-day wrath on men (1 Thess. 5:1-11; cf. Lk. 21:34-36).

7. Saints will be made whole in body, soul, and spirit at the rapture (1 Thess. 5:23; cf. Phil. 3:21).

Who Or What Is the Hinderer of Lawlessness?

Paul definitely said that the hinderer of lawlessness would continue to hinder lawlessness "until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed," whom the Lord shall destroy at His second advent (2 Thess. 2:7-8). If the question of who or what the hinderer of lawlessness is can be settled, the time of the rapture will be automatically settled.

Three Things Hindering Lawlessness in the World Today

1. Human governments (Gen. 9:1-8; Rom 13; 1 Peter 2:14)

2. The Holy Spirit (John. 14:16;Jn 15:26;Jn 16:7-11)

3. The church (Mt. 5:13-16; 1 Cor. 12:28; Rom 12:3-8; 1 Peter 4:10-19)



In no scripture in the two books to the Thessalonians did Paul mention governments or the Holy Spirit as being taken out of the world, but he repeatedly referred to the church as being raptured out of the world and from the earth (1 Thess. 1:10;1 Thess 2:19-20; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; 2 Thess. 2:1,7-8). We must, therefore, conclude that the church is the hinderer of lawlessness, and for the following reasons.



1. Human governments will never be taken out of the world to permit the Revelation of the Antichrist. He himself will even reign over ten kingdoms when he comes (Rev. 17:8-17). And many other governments will be here in other parts of the earth throughout all the days that the man of sin (Antichrist) will be here (Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-14; Rev. 16:13-16; Zech. 14:1-5).

2. The Holy Spirit will never be taken from the world, for Jesus promised that He would abide with us forever (John. 14:16). In Acts 2:16-21; Zech. 12:10 - Zech 13:1,Mt. 24:14; Rev. 7:14; Rev 19:10 and other scriptures we have much proof that the Holy Spirit will still be here throughout the tribulation and the reign of Antichrist. Therefore, He could not be the hinderer of lawlessness that will be taken out of the way.

3. The church will be taken out of the world by rapture, as stated in the above references. It is the only one of the above mentioned three hinderers of lawlessness that is to be taken out of the world, so it must be the hinderer of 2 Thess. 2:7-8.



That this hinderer of lawlessness will literally be taken out of the world is clear from the Greek statement, ek mesou genetai, which means, "out of the midst be gone" (2 Thess. 2:7-8). The Greek phrase ek mesou literally means "from among" and is so translated in Mt. 13:49; Acts 17:33;Acts 23:10; 1 Cor. 5:2; 2 Cor. 6:17; Col. 2:13-14; 2 Thess. 2:7. Whatever is referred to as the hinderer is being taken out of the way, not being brought into the midst of men.

Out of 25 versions examined by this author, not one reads "born out of the midst of men" as said by some who teach that instead of referring to the revelation of Antichrist, this passage (2 Thess. 2:7-8) speaks of his birth. These versions render the passage in 13 different ways, and the thought in every one is not the birth of Antichrist but rather the fact that the hinderer of lawlessness is to be literally removed from the earth, from among men, before the revelation of that Wicked one.

The renderings of these versions are: "be removed" from the midst (4 times); "be gone"-not here (once); "be gotten out of the way" (3 times); "taken from the midst" not born into the midst (once); "coming to be out of the midst" (once); "is taken out of the way" (twice); "gone from the midst" (once); "the restraining power removed" (once); "disappear from the scene" (once); "be out of the way" (once); "steps out of the way" (once); "becomes out of the way" (once); "taken out of the way" (7 times).

Even if we believed that the Holy Spirit would be taken out of the world to permit the revelation of the man of sin, we could not possibly believe that He would abandon the church (the body of Christ), leaving it in the world to go through terrible sufferings without Him. Therefore, the church would be taken out of the world with Him, and thus the rapture of the church before the tribulation is proved either way.

Men have stumbled over the use of the pronoun "he" in 2 Thess. 2:7 for a long time and a great many teachers have not been able to bring themselves to the fact that a masculine pronoun could refer to the church when it has been universally taught that the church is the bride of Christ, a woman, a lady, and a virgin. If the pronoun "she" had been used in 2 Thess. 2:7 every Bible scholar who teaches that the church is the bride of Christ would have automatically believed and taught that this "she" identified the church as the hinderer of lawlessness and would have used this as proof of the church being taken out of the world before the tribulation and Revelation of the Antichrist.

The Church Is Not the Bride of Christ

That the church is not the bride of Christ is clear from many scriptures and facts about the church and about the bride of Christ. First, in no scripture is the church ever called the bride of Christ, though the fallacy can be found universally in commentaries, Bible textbooks, doctrine books, song books, and other Christian writings. Never once is this idea stated in the Bible itself, though it does mention the bride of Christ and tells us exactly who it is. Rev. 21:9-10 the angel who said "I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife," showed it to be "that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God." See also Rev. 21:2 and Rev 22:17. The inhabitants of the Heavenly Jerusalem are called "his wife" in Rev. 19:1-10. The idea is that all the redeemed of all ages who will go to live in that city will become a part of the Holy City, which is the bride. But to call any individual, or any company of saints, or any group of Christians "the bride" is unscriptural. As a whole they can be a part of the bride, but no single one of them and no one company of saints in any age can be said to be the bride of Christ. See John. 14:1-3; Heb. 11:11-16; Heb 12:22-23; Heb 13:14.

Second, it is plain in Eph. 2:14-15 and Eph 4:13 that the church is a man and not a woman. Being the body of Christ who was a man and the head of the church, it is only to be expected that His body (the church) would be referred to as a man and not a woman. It cannot be that the head would be that of a man and the body that of a woman. And so, since the church is the body of Christ as stated in 1 Cor. 12:13, 27; Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18,24, then the church is not to be considered a woman. Therefore, the masculine pronoun in 2 Thess. 2:7 is proper and the only one to use of the N.T. church. It is perfectly scriptural to use the pronoun "he" when referring to the whole body of Christ. The Bible uses it many times when referring to whole companies or nations of people made up of both men and women. For example, all the nation of Israel is called "he" (Deut 32:15; Isa. 11:16; Josh. 22:22).

Third, not once is the N.T. church called a woman, a lady, or a virgin. Furthermore, the church is never referred to by a feminine pronoun. Some think that Eph. 5:22-31 would be an exception to this, but a closer reading of the passage will make the meaning clear. Paul illustrates the headship of Christ to the church and His relationship with it by comparing this headship and relationship to a similar headship and relationship which exist between a man and his wife. Christ and His church are one thing and the man and his wife are another, with the feminine pronoun referring to the woman who is the wife of the man, not to the church as the wife of Christ.

 

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Fourth, some teachers use 2 Cor. 11:1-2 to make the woman a symbol of the church, but Paul is not emphasizing the femininity of the church here. He is simply expressing his desire for his own converts to be pure like a virgin, so that they may be presented in all purity before God. The whole church is not referred to here at all.

Fifth, others use Gal. 4:26 hoping to prove that the church is symbolized by a woman, but again, this is not the intention of the passage. The apostle expresses the idea that the Holy City is the headquarters and the source of all blessings, comparing the City to a mother as the source of blessings to her children. Using the woman of Rev. 12 as a symbol of the church is missing the mark completely, for this woman is a symbol of Israel as a nation-and not the church (Gen. 37:9-10). Israel is clearly shown to be the wife of God in Isa. 54:4-9; Hos. 2:14-18.



Proof 2

Another proof of the rapture of the church and O.T. saints before the tribulation is found in Rev. 1:19 and Rev 4:1. All the dead and living in Christ at this point in time will be raptured to meet the Lord in the air to be taken to heaven to live in mansions, in the Father's house with Christ eternally (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-56; Eph. 5:27; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; Jas. 5:7-8; Heb 11:10-16; Heb 12:22-23; Heb 13:14; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10).

Christ made it clear to John in t and Rev. 4:1 that all the details of every prophecy in Rev. 4:1 -Rev 22:21. This is confirmed without controversy in the three-fold division of the book of Revelation.

The Three Divisions of Revelation

1. "Write the things which thou hast seen." That is, as the first division of this book write the vision that you saw of me (Christ) in the midst of the candlesticks in Rev. 1:11-18 (Rev. 1:19). This John did in the first chapter of the book.

2. "Write the things which are." That is, in the second division of the book of Revelation write the things that I (Christ) will tell you to write about concerning the churches, or concerning the church on earth. This John did in Rev. 2:1 - Rev 3:22(Rev. 1:19).

3. "Write the things which must be hereafter." That is, as the third and last division of the book of Revelation write the things that I (Christ) will show you after you have completed things concerning the churches. These last things do not concern the things of the churches-they concern events after the church age. These things to happen after the church age were recorded by John in Rev. 4:1 - Rev 22:21 (Rev. 1:19).

The Key to the Book of Revelation

If one will accept this simple three-fold division of Revelation, as in the above, and keep every detail of the events in the proper division as revealed, this will truly serve as the key to an understanding of the entire book. All that is required for an understanding of these events is to take them literally as things to happen on the earth from John's day forward into all eternity to come, making sure above all else that each event is put in its proper place or order of events as they are revealed-each in its own division, not mixing those things concerning the church with those things which must be after the churches.

We have in the things concerning the churches, and the events which must be after the churches two separate and distinct series of happenings that cover two separate and distinct periods of time-one period covering the church age (Rev. 2:1 - Rev 3:22), and the other covering the time from the end of the church period, or church age, into all eternity to come (Rev. 4:1 - Rev 22:5). Whenever we see that "the things which are" belong to the church age, and that "the things which must be after the things which are" belong to the period from the close of the church age on into all eternity, then the entire book becomes as simple to understand as John. 3:16. The main thing to keep in mind is that Rev. 4:1 - Rev 22:21 will be fulfilled after the church age, and, therefore, after the rapture of the church. Not one of these latter-day details has anything to do with the church age.

Summary of Things After the Rapture-After the Church Age

1. Events in heaven that John saw after he arrived there, as in Rev. 4:1, including the raptured church and O.T. saints who were seen in heaven by this time, being a fulfillment of things revealed here, for the first time, as happening after the churches (Rev. 4:1 - Rev 5:14). The raptured church saints are definitely pictured as being in heaven at this point (Rev. 5:8-10).

2. Events of Daniel's 70th week, or the last seven years of this age between the events which John saw in heaven in Rev. 4 and Rev 5 and the second advent in Rev. 19:11-21. This period covers all the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials, and all other details regarding the two witnesses (Rev. 11:3-12), the woman and the manchild (Rev. 12), the two beasts (Rev. 13:1 - Rev 14:20); and the great whore (Rev. 17).

3. The marriage supper of the Lamb and the second advent (Rev. 19:1-21).

4. The Millennium-1,000-year reign of Christ to put down all rebellion on earth (Rev. 10:1-6; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Eph. 1:10).

5. Events ending the 1,000-year reign of Christ including the renovation of the heavens and the earth by fire (Rev. 20:7-15; 2 Peter 3:10-13; Heb. 1:10-12;Heb 12:26-29).

6. Events of the eternal new heaven and the new earth (Rev. 21-22; Isa. 65:17;Isa 66:22-24; 2 Peter 3:10-13).

 

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From the above we can see that it would be erroneous to make various details of history a part of things yet to happen which are the seven seals, seven trumpets, seven vials, and other events including the woman and the manchild of Rev. 12. For instance, it would be erroneous to say that the ascension of Christ 65 years before John wrote the book of Revelation was actually the ascension of the manchild (Rev. 12:5) in the middle of events which must be after the churches. In comparing 25 versions with the King James Version, the author has found that every one is in agreement with the fact that the prophecies of Rev. 4:1 on through the 22nd chapter of the book are to be fulfilled in detail after the churches, that is, after the church age-and this is in agreement with the three-fold division of Revelation as stated above.

To quote various renderings of Rev. 4:1 one says, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place hereafter"; another says, "what must come to pass after this"; and others say, "which are to happen in the future"; and, "what things must come to pass"-all referring to what should happen after the churches which John had just completed writing about in the second division of his book (Rev. 2:1 - Rev 3:22).



Proof 3

Another proof of a rapture of the church and O.T. saints before the tribulation lies in the literal fulfillment of Lk. 21:34-36. Christ personally promised all true believers who would meet the conditions that they would "escape all these things" and "stand before the son of man." The things that the "worthy" ones were to escape are those listed in Lk. 21:1-11,25-33; Mt. 24:1 -Mt 25:46; Mk. 13 and Rev. 4:1 - Rev 18:24. The only way they could do this would be to be raptured before these events took place. To escape means that they would not suffer or have to endure these things, and to stand before the Son of man means that they would be raptured bodily so as to be able to stand before Him in bodily presence. They will therefore literally rise "to meet him in the air" and be received by Christ to go up to heaven to live with Him (John. 14:1-3; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Eph. 5:27; Phil. 3:21; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; 2 Thess. 2:1,7-8; Jas. 5:7-8; 1 John. 2:28;1 John 3:1-3; Rev. 1:19; Rev 4:1; Rev 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10).

The Greek word for "escape" in Lk. 21:36 is ekpheugo, meaning to flee out of the way (Acts 19:16); to get away (Acts 16:27); and to escape danger and even hell (Lk. 21:36; Rom. 2:3; 2 Cor. 11:33; 1 Thess. 5:1-4; Heb. 2:3;Heb 12:25).



Proof 4

A proof of a rapture of the church and O.T. saints before the tribulation is found in Rev. 5:8-10. Here we have the raptured saints of all past ages up to this point already in heaven having been already redeemed and raptured to heaven. They are the "kings and priests" from "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" who will reign on the earth. They are in heaven at this point in the fulfillment of Rev. 4:1 - Rev 22:21, all of which must be fulfilled after the churches. The fact that they are here revealed as already having been redeemed and raptured cannot be denied. They are pre-tribulation saints and they are in heaven at the very beginning of the tribulation which starts in the first seal and continues throughout the entire seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials of Rev. 6:1 - Rev 16:21; Rev 18:1-24. The tribulation saints are those that are martyred in this 70th week of Daniel (Rev. 6:9-11; Rev 7:9-17; Rev 14:9-13; Rev 15:1-5; Rev 20:4-7; Dan. 7:21;Dan 9:27). There is a special song of redemption related to the pre-tribulation saints (Rev. 5:8-10) that is entirely different from the song sung 3 ½ years later by the 144,000 (Rev. 14:1-5), and the one sung seven years later by the tribulation saints (Rev. 15:1-5).



Proof 5

In 1 Thess. 5:1-11 Paul makes it plain that the wrath of God that begins in the sixth seal of Rev. 6:12-17 in the first 3 ½ years of Daniel's 70th week is not "appointed" for the church, but for the ungodly world. He said, "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation [deliverance] by our Lord Jesus Christ," so that both the dead and the living in Christ can live together in the rapture (1 Thess. 5:9-11). In view of this deliverance for both the dead and the living in Christ at the rapture, we are to be comforted (1 Thess. 4:18;1 Thess 5:11). And, since this wrath begins in the first part or in the first 3 ½ years of Daniel's 70th week, at the point of the sixth seal, then the church will be raptured before that. Furthermore, since the raptured saints are seen in heaven-in Rev. 5:8-10-before the first seal begins, we must then conclude that the rapture takes place before any of the seals begin.



Proof 6

The enthroned elders of Rev. 4:4,10; Rev 5:5-8,11,14; Rev 7:11,13; Rev 11:16; Rev 14:3; and Rev 19:4 being seated on 24 thrones around the throne of God as representatives of the raptured saints of Rev. 5:8-10 is proof that they are not only redeemed, but that they are also raptured by this time, that is, before the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials begin. The fact that they are seen in heaven in Rev. 5 at a time before the rapture of the 144,000 (Rev. 14:1-5) and before the rapture of the tribulation saints (Rev. 15:1-4) makes it clear that the enthroned elders are representatives of the church and O.T. saints, and not representatives of these other groups raptured later.



Proof 7

The fact that Rev. 1:1 - Rev 3:22 deals only with the church on earth, and Rev. 4- Rev 19 deals with Israel gives us another proof of a rapture of the church and O.T. saints before the tribulation. Every individual is identified and recognized by his own features and characteristics. Even so, in this case a body of individuals is identified by its many features, characteristics, and peculiarities. If the church is seen on earth and is being dealt with by God during the tribulation in chapters Rev 4- Rev 19 in the book of Revelation, then we must see its earmarks. But they are not to be found there. The terms "church" and "churches" are not found once in this part of the book of Revelation. On the other hand, there are evidences of Israel everywhere in this section. And this fact is most striking: Israel is not mentioned at all in Rev. 1:1 - Rev 3:22 which deals only with the church on earth. This fact shows that the two different institutions are dealt with in different parts of the book of Revelation: first, the church until its rapture in Rev. 1:1 - 3:22; then Israel after the rapture of the church, in Rev. 4:1 - Rev 22:5.

The Hebrew Character of Revelation After Rev. 1-3

1. The word "Lamb" is used of Christ 27 times after Rev. 1-3 (which deals with the church age) and not once in these first three chapters of the book. It is never used by Paul in his epistles to the churches; and outside the book of Revelation it is used only in John. 1:29,36; Acts 8:32; 1 Peter 1:19. The Lamb is the antitype of all Jewish sacrifices.

2. "The Lion of the tribe of Juda" and "the Root of David" (Rev. 5:5) show a Jewish connection.

3. The 144,000 of Rev. 7:1-8; Rev 9:4; Rev 12:5; Rev 14:1-5 are Jewish as well as the woman and her remnant.

4. The events of the seals, trumpets, and vials are a partial repetition of the plagues in Egypt which took place at a time when the Gentiles were seeking to destroy Israel (Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21).

5. The tribulation of Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21 concerns Israel in particular (see Chapter 2).

6. Daniel's 70th week will be fulfilled in Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21 which definitely concerns "thy people" (Israel) and "thy city" (Jerusalem) as indicated in Dan. 9:24-27. The middle and last 3 ½ years of this Week are mentioned many times in connection with Israel but not in connection with the church (Dan. 7:21,25;Dan 9:27;Dan 12:1-7; Mt. 24:15-22; Rev. 11:1-12; Rev 12:5,14; Rev 13:5).

7. The ministry of the angel around the altar (Rev. 8:2-5) and the horns of the altar (Rev. 9:13; Rev 11:1; Rev 14:19; Rev 16:7) are familiar only to Israel.

8. The temple and its worship, the altar, the court of the Gentiles, the Holy City, olive trees, the candlesticks (Rev. 11:4), the ark of the covenant (Rev. 11:1-19; Zech. 4:14; Mal. 4:5-6) and other details here are Jewish-not details related to church worship.

9. "The kingdoms of this world" becoming those of God and of Christ is strictly Jewish in prediction and in fulfillment, being mentioned hundreds of times in the Jewish O.T. as well as in the N.T. (Lk. 1:32-33; Acts 1:6-7; Rev. 11:15, etc.).

10. The dragon, the beast, and the false prophet (Rev. 13:1 - Rev 19:21) are referred to many times in Jewish prophecies in O.T. books whereas the church is not once mentioned as being here when these prophecies are being fulfilled.

11. Michael (Rev. 12:7-12) is truly Jewish as he is the prince of Israel (Dan. 10:13-21;Dan 12:1-9). He is never mentioned in connection with the church.

12. Literal Babylon of Rev. 14:8; Rev 16:17-21; Rev 18:1-24 is solely a Jewish reference and the predictions will be fulfilled when many other Jewish predictions are fulfilled (Isa. 13-14; Zech. 5; Jer. 50-51). Babylon was the place where Israel was held captive for many years (Jer. 25).

13. Armageddon of Rev. 19 is Jewish (Zech. 14:1-14).

 

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If you think I haven't read all of the things I've posted several times as well as looking up EVERY SINGLE verses (as well as those around for context)... and you believe I ignorantly believe every thing the church has told me since I was a child... then you are sorely mistaken If you wanna know my study time on just the subject of salvation alone... then you can read my book here... www.conditionalsalvation.com/free_book ... most of the info there I was not taught as a child... I was actually taught a hyper grace and a mere acceptance of a historical fact as enough to go from initial salvation to eternal salvation at death and/or rapture... haha to that theory

I recommend taking more time to research the Scriptures given and less time trying to argue