6 point proof for the post trib rapture.

[watchman F]

The main two foundational scriptures used by rapture believers of any stance pre,mid or post are 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Here we see the concept of the rapture in scripture. When the dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living caught up, both to receive their new immortal, heavenly bodies. Although these scriptures are used by both pretrib and post trib believers alike as fundamental to their belief. The pretrib believer can not use them to support their opinion on the timing of the rapture, and post trib believers can, as we will find out in the following chapters. For now lets look at some scriptures the pretrib believer does use to try and support the belief on the timing of the rapture.



Luke 21:36 Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
At first glance this seems to be a compelling argument for the pretrib rapture, until you take time to read what it is actually saying. Pray always that you may be able to ''ESCAPE'' the things that shall come to pass. This actually disproves the pretrib rapture. You can not escape anything you have not first taken part in. You can not escape a abusive relationship if you were never in a abusive relationship. You can not escape prison without first being incarcerated and so on and so one. We will not be able to escape the things happening during the tribulation if we are never going to be in the tribulation. Another problem with their interpretation of this verse is that they ignore the rest the Luke 21. Verses 8-35 make it obvious that we will be here during the tribulation. Going as far as to say in verse 22-28 that not until the worse of the tribulation has begun, should we begin to lift our heads and look for our redemption.
Luke 21:22-28
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great stress upon the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall upon the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentile be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and waves roaring;
26 Mens hearts falling them for fear, and for looking after those thins that are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Once the tribulation has started, and these things begin to happen, that is when we will really know that Jesus' return is close, that are redemption is drawing near. We will indeed escape evil, but not by missing the tribulation, nor by being snatch into Heaven, but by divine protection here on earth.


John 14:2-3
2 In my Fathers house there are many mansions: if it were not so, I would not have told you so, I go and prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you into myself, that were I am there ye may be also.
Pretribbers want you to believe the place he prepared for you is some mansion in heaven and when He come to receive you into Himself He will then take you to that mansion. This is a wonderful story to tell but it is not good doctrine, it just doesn't fit with what we know about Christ's return. When Jesus returns from Heaven, He is on His way to earth. When He reveives us into Himself we will be with Him where He is, not where He was or where He went, but where He is going to, which is here on earth for the millennium. The place Jesus goes to prepare us is New Jerusalem Hebrews 12:22 and we will not go there until it comes down from heaven at the end of the Millennium after the White throne Judgment Revelation 21(the whole chapter). Jesus does not come before the tribulation to take us to Heaven. He comes after the tribulation to receive us into Himself so we can be one with Him and with each other has He has promised through oput scriptures.




1st Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which has delivered us from the wrath to come.
To get a pretrib view out of this verse you would first have to make two assumptions, neither of which are scriptural. #1 That the wrath to come is the tribulation, and # 2 that the deliverance from this wrath is the rapture. As for the first assumption, you can believe the wrath to come to be many things. You can believe it to be a seven year tribulation, you can believe it to be the three and a half years of great tribulation, you can believe it to be the judgment of God when He separates the sheep from the goats, you can believe that it is Hell, or the lake of fire. As for me, I believe it is the judgment of God, when Jesus destroys the wicked with fire, which occurs at the post trib second coming, and later in this book I will prove as much biblically. What you can not do is, arbitrarily proclaim that the wrath equals the seven year tribulation period. The second assumption, needed to be made is that the deliverance from the wrath is the rapture, which is completely false. The scripture says that He ''has delivered us'' from the wrath to come past tense, the rapture is still in the future. Therefore the only way scripture could possibly refer to the rapture is if it read, who ''will deliver us'' from the wrath to come future tense. Conclusion, both assumption are unbiblical. The wrath is the judgment of God upon the wicked and the deliverance is the death of Jesus on the cross. We are not delivered from the tribulation by the rapture, but from judgment by the cross. That is the true meaning of this verse.




1st Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Once again to get the pretrib rapture from this verse you must assume that the wrath is the tribulation, and our salvation is the rapture. Our Salvation is Jesus Christ, not the rapture, and we are saved from Hell, not the tribulation. This verse has been grossly misrepresented by the pretrib supporters.
Let me ask this, if our salvation is from the tribulation, what about the tribulational saints? If they are saved by the same blood of Christ as we are, then why are they not ''raptured'' the moment of their salvations, why are they appointed to wrath? If we are not appointed to wrath then no believer of any age is appointed to wrath. It is obvious that this verse has nothing to do with the rapture, tribulation ect...




Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation, which will come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
This is by far the best scripture the pretrib movement has, yet it does not even come close to inferring that we will be snatched into Heaven before the tribulation to elude God's wrath upon the world. Anyone that believes this some how proves the pretrib rapture can be easily corrected. Remember verse 10 says that because we have kept his word he will keep us from the hour of temptation but verse 11 tells us to hold fast until his return.
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold fast to what thou hast, that no man take your crown.
We know that He returns after the tribulation because in Revelation 2:16 Jesus tells the church to repent or else He will come and fight against them with the sword from His mouth. We see in Revelation chapter 19 that this event is after the tribulation.
Revelation 19:11-15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon it was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doest judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dripped with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. ( by the way the armies clothed in white are the dead in Christ returning from heaven to receive immortal bodies and or the angels, not the raptured saints)
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp two edge sword, that he should smite the nations: and he should rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
All are in agreement that this happens after the tribulation, and again in Revelation 2:16 He says He is coming quickly to fight against the unrepentant with the sword from his mouth.
Revelation 2:16 Repent: or else I will come unto thee quickly and fight against thee with the sword of my mouth.
So if the coming quickly in Revelation 2:16 is post tribulational, then the coming quickly in Revelation 3:11 is post tribulational as well.
So if we are to believe that Revelation 3:10 is saying that Jesus is going to rapture us out of the world before the tribulation. Then we must accept the in one verse he tells us that we will be rapture before the tribulation '' Rev 3:10'', and then in the very next verse he tell us to hold to our faith until after the tribulation is over '' Rev 3:11''. How could this be, there must be something wrong, so what is it? Jesus would not contradict Himself.
John 17:15 tells us that Jesus actually prays to the Father, that He would not remove us from the world, but that he would keep us from evil.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but thou should keep them from the evil.
We know that Jesus was not just praying for the disciples only, but for all believers because of what it says in John 17:20.
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also that shall believe on me through their word;
So now we know not only can God keep us from evil, and keep us from the hour of temptation, without removing us from the world, but that it would actually be against the prayer of Jesus Himself if we were raptured out of the world. We are kept from the hour of temptation through divine protection not the pretrib rapture. This does not mean that we will be immune to the wrath of man, but just as the apostles, that are faith would not fail.
Luke 22:31-32a
31 And then the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you , that he may sift you as wheat:
32a But I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not.
We will not be removed from the earth before the tribulation. Yet if we keep the word of God's patience, and hold fast to our faith in Him. Jesus has promised us that He will keep us from falling.
Revelation 2:24-26
24 But unto you I say,and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, ( fornication and eating things sacrificed to idols ) and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you no other burden.
25 But that which you already have, hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
You see it is not those that keep his works to the start of the tribulation, or those that hold fast to the pretrib rapture that are rewarded. It is those that keep his works until the end and hold fast to their faith until His post trib second coming that will rule the nations.




The next scripture I will address is Revelation 4:1, there is no reason anyone to ever use this verse to support any rapture view. Yet the pretrib ''Theologian'' insists that this verse somehow refers to the rapture of the church before the start of the tribulation.
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and behold, a door was open in heaven: and the first voice I heard was as it were a trumpet talking with me; which said, come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be here after.
For the sake of context I will also quote verse 2.
Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
This is a vision John was having and that is all it is and nothing more. If someone is teaching this represents the pretrib rapture, then you must second guess every thing that person has ever said, they are obviously twisting scripture to fit their belief. In 2nd Corinthians chapter 12 Paul speaks of a man caught up into paradise.
2nd Corinthians 12:3-4
3 And I knew such a man, ( whether in body or out of the body I can not tell: God knoweth; )
4 How he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which are not lawful for a man to utter.
This is not the rapture of the church and Revelation 4:1 is no more the rapture the church that the man in 2nd Corinthians. Although obviously untrue, to any reasonable person, pretrib teachers still assert that this is representative of the pretrib rapture. Although I understand them grabbing at straws, seeing as how they can not use scripture to support their belief. What they should do rather than twisting scripture to teach their belief is twist their beliefs to line up with scripture.

 

[watchman F]

Now with the final verse that the pretrib users use, I will once again touch on the teaching of imminence ( the any day, any moment return of Christ), although I touched on it in Chapter One, I will now show you the scripture they get this teaching from.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day or hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels in heaven, but my Father only.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' teach that this is proof that Jesus could return at any second of any day. Further more they teach that if the rapture were post tribulational that we would be able to calculate out the exact day of the rapture mathematically, by adding seven years to when the tribulation started. What they seem to be willfully ignorant of is that this is not referring to the rapture per se, but of the greater event of the second coming of Christ which include the resurrection of the just, rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked. There are two things that are evident when we start reading at Matthew 24:27 and read through verse 36. #1 that verse 36 is indeed referring to the second coming and not the rapture and, #2 that there is no doubt that it takes place after the tribulation.
Matthew 24:27-36
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn the parable of the fig tree; when the branch is yet tender, and putteth forth it leaves, you know that summer is nigh.
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see these things, know that it is near ( the 2nd coming is near ) even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, ( the generation that sees these things, not the generation that was living when he was speaking) till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass way, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels, but my Father only.
Remember this entire text is talking about the second coming. In verse 27 it say ''so shall the coming of the Son of man be'' and in verse 30 it says '' they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven''. However pretribbers say that in verse 31 when it refers to the gathering together can not be talking about the rapture because it takes place after the tribulation. Yet they also say that verse 36 is referring to the rapture, even though it is obvious when you read the passage in context that it is referring to the same event. So if they admit this event, which no man knows the day or hour of, is the second coming, then it renders their argument mute, but if they say it is the rapture then they are then admitting the rapture is immediately after the tribulation. So either way they can not use this scripture as proof of the imminent return of Christ before the tribulation to catch away the church.

Another teaching of imminence by the pretrib believer is that Jesus returns as a thief taking the world off guard. Once again it seems they are willfully ignorant of what scripture actually teaches. Jesus does not return as a thief to the righteous taking us off guard , but to the wicked. The righteous will be able to see the signs of the end and will be eagerly awaiting the soon return of Christ, while on the other hand the wicked and unbelieving will be living their lives as normal and Christ will return suddenly and unexpectedly to them and destroy them.
1st Thessalonians 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, bretheren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
You see that day will not overtake us '' the righteous'' unaware as a thief but only the unbelieving.
Luke 21:26-28
26 Mens hearts falling them for fear, and for looking after those thins that are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
When the tribulation is at it's worse we will know are redemption is drawing near, but the wicked will be going on about their lives.
Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
Noah knew the flood was coming and prepared himself accordingly, but the wicked knew not and were destroyed unaware. So too, will we know Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked and we will be prepared accordingly, but the wicked will be taken off guard, To them he returns as a thief not to us.




Lastly they claim that the church is not mentioned after chapter 3 of Revelation showing that we will have already been taken to Heaven, but this too is ridiculous. Believers are mention all through the book of Revelation
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 3:7a And it was given to him to make war with the saints.
Revelation 3:10b Here is the patience of the saints.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
There are more, but you get the point. The teaching of the pretrib rapture opposes God's word. That is why they need to grab at straws, create secondary false doctrines, and twist the true meaning of scripture to try and prove a belief that is unprovable by using the natural meaning of the scriptures. The pretrib rapture is a false teaching and anyone actively and overtly teaching it, is promoting Satan's lie, and needs to repent and discontinue their actions.

 

[watchman F]

Scripture that prove the second coming is after the tribulation

You can actually prove that the rapture is after the tribulation by proving two other things. #1 that the second coming is after the tribulation, #2 that the rapture is at, and or on the same day as the second coming. If you can show that the second coming is after the tribulation and that the rapture is at the second coming, then that in itself proves that the rapture is indeed post tribulational. In this chapter I will address the first point, that the second coming is after the tribulation. I will show that the rapture is at the second coming in chapter four. The main text I will use to show that the second coming is after the tribulation is one I have already quoted in this book, Matthew 24:29-31. I will also use it's sister scripture Mark 13:24-27.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that this is the Jewish elect not the church, but we have already shown the deception behind this teaching. Others argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows
Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now in the next chapter I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.





Scriptures that show that the resurrection of the just and the catching away or rapture of the living saints, is at the post trib 2nd coming

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Here is one of our two foundational scriptures that I eluded to earlier. There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.
Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop the book right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.




1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrection at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.




2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth and then the anti christ will be revealed and then the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.




1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.



I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming. Yet believe it or not there is more.

 

[watchman F]

Scripture that shows the rapture is at the end, at the last day, and at the last trump.

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved. Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation. In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very in shall be saved.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium.



Another verse referring to remaining unblameable until the end, until Jesus returns is 1st Thessalonians 3:13
1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns. Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints. Although if He catches us up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints.
1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies. Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.




We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.




At the last trump, we will now look at the other foundational rapture scripture of any view pre, mid, or post and see that it tell us that we will not be raptured until after the tribulation is over.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
It is universally understood that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.
Some will argue that the trumpet sounded in 1st Corinthians 15:52 is the seventh trumpet from Revelation, I disagree. However it is irrelevant to my point because regardless if it is the seventh trumpet or not we know this, it is the last trump. I would submit that the trumpet sounded in 1st Corinthians 15 is the same as the one sounded in Matthew 24, but once again it is irrelevant to my point. Whether they are the same or not. The trump in 1st Corinthians can not be before the one in Matthew because the one in 1st Corinthians is the very last trump. Therefore if the trumpet sounded in 1st Corinthians 15:52 can not be before the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 so the rapture can not be before the tribulation is over much less before it even begins.




The final passage I will quote in this chapter in Revelation 20:4-6. Although it does not use the phrases ''until the end'', ''at the last day'', or ''at the last trump'' it irrefutably shows that the resurrection of the just as well as the rapture can not be until after the tribulation.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs. There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.








Scriptures that show that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked at the post trib second coming of Christ

I will now show through the words of John the Baptist what the wrath to come spoken of in 1st Thessalonians 1:10 really is.
Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.




1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.





2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.
When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.





Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.





2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.
This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.



I have shown in this chapter that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. In the next chapter I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

 

[watchman F]

Scripture that shows the second coming, the rapture, and the destruction of the wicked are all one the same day.

Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.




Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken, and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.





Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.






2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

 

[watchman F]

Conclusion

I have given plenty of biblical proof, that not only is the post trib view obvious, but that all other views are biblically impossible. Either you believe in the pretrib rapture or you believe God's word, you can not do both. God's word tells us that the second coming is after the tribulation, that the resurrection of the just, as well as the rapture of the living saints, are both at the second coming. It tells us that the first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation and that the rapture comes after the resurrection. Further more the Bible tells us that the rapture is at the last trump and on the last day. We are also told for our need to endure until the very end.
So for you to continue to hold onto the pretrib view, you must insist that immediately after the tribulation actually means right before it starts. You also have to say that the first resurrection is not really the first resurrection, that the last trump isn't really the last trump, and that the same day means seven years apart. Sound funny when put that way, but believe or not there are those that teach just that, when confronted with the truth.
Call me crazy but I believe the Bible means what it says. When it says immediately after the tribulation, I believe it. When it says first resurrection, I believe it is talking about the first resurrection. When it says the last trump, I believe there will be no more trumpets sounded after that one. When the Bible says the rapture is on the same day as the second coming and that Jesus does not return until after the tribulation, I have no choice but to take God's word for it.
So why is the pretrib view taught, why is the church so deceived? What will happen to the preacher, pastor, and teachers that continue to deceive God's people? The pretrib rapture is taught because that is what people want to hear. It is what tickles their ears. No one wants to stand firm for God any more.
2nd Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lust they shall heap together teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn their ears from the truth, and unto fables.
Yet the truth is we ought to stand firm for Christ in the face of all adversity, and overcome evil with good. We were never promised that we would avoid hardships, or even persecutions. Just the opposite, we are told we will have to go through many trials, tribulations, and pursecutions. We are commanded by Jesus to be faithful even unto death.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that ye might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those thing which thou shall suffer: behold the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried, and you shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
People who continually and regularly teach the pretrib rapture trying to convince others of it's validity are deceitful and subverted, following after their own bellies, rather than the will of God. They deceive many that know no better than to trust their word, and will have to stand before God one day and give an account. They will have to answer as to why they opposed God's word and promoted Satan's lie. They will not be found innocent in His sight.
Ezekiel 13:1-10
1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, hear ye the word of the Lord;
3 Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made a hedge around the house of Israel to stand in battle in the day of the Lord.
6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, the Lord saith: and the Lord hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm their word.
7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken lying divination, whereas ye say, the Lord saith it, albeit I have not spoken?
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold I am against you, saith the Lord God.
9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall their name be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God.
10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying peace; and there was no peace, and built up a wall, and lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
This is exactly what the pretrib teachers have done. They say God has sent them, He has not. They say He has promised to rapture the church out before the tribulation, He has not. They have made other to hope, who confirm their word, but their word can not be confirmed. They teach and prophesy out of their own hearts, bellies, and spirits, and then say it is of God, it is not. They refuse to build up the church enabling us to stand in the day of the Lord. They have built a foundation with false beliefs, that others build upon with more inaccuracies. Therefore God is against them, they will not be in the assembly of His people, when He returns to gather His elect. They will not be with the righteous in all eternity, but will suffer with the wicked and unbelieving unless they repent and start teaching the truth of God's word.
Many will fall away from the faith during the tribulation because of the pretrib teaching and the bible prophesies this event.
Matthew 24:48-51
48 But and if the evil servant shall say in his heart, my lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservant, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him assunder, and give him his potion with the hypocrites: there will be weeping and nashing of teeth.
The reason people believe that the Lord has delayed His coming, is because they have been taught the church is going to be removed before the tribulation. When the tribulation starts and they are still here many will believe God has broken His promise to remove them and turn from their faith. The blood of these people will be required at the hands of the pastors, and teachers that actively promote the pretrib agenda. Not every preacher that believes in the pretrib rapture will have to answer for those that turn from their faith because of the teaching. It is those that are actively teaching deceiving the masses that receive the judgment. Believing the pretrib rapture is not the sin, deceiving others with the teaching causing their faith to fail is the sin. I actually had a Sunday school teacher that said she would not serve a God that would leave her behind during the tribulation. If this is the case she does not serve the God of the Bible, and will one day stand before Him and have to answer for that statement. Those type of attitudes are one of many of the problems with the pretrib rapture belief.
Jesus laid down His life for us, shouldn't we be willing to lay ours down for Him? Most of the people in American churches today will not even live for God much less die for Him. We all need to rethink our commitment to God. We need to decide how dedicated we truly are. The time is coming when we will be either in or out, there will be no more middle ground. You will either be willing to die for Christ, or you will end up denying Him. The time for playing church is over. It is time to start getting serious about serving God. It is time for us to stop believing, and spreading Satan's lies, and start learning and teaching God's truth. It is time we stop worshiping an idea '' the escapism cult know as the pretrib rapture'', and start worshiping the true God of the Bible. It is time that we put away our ''religious Christianity'' and start renewing a real relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Have you ever been kicked, punched, or hit in the stomach when you were not expecting it? That is what is going to happen to the pretrib believer. The tribulation is going to hit them like an unexpected kick to the gut. If you have to get kicked in the gut, you would at least like to be warned first right? Well, the fact is Christians will have to go through the tribulation, the Bible is clear on this fact. There really should not be any more debate about it. So here is your warning, brace yourself, The Sword is Coming.

 

[freeway]

Oh my Lord, you talk about long post,, maybe could cut them down a little. I have to admit after a couple of paragraphs I loose interest in reading...

I have one question for watchman F.
If we Christians are raptured at the second coming ie end of the age, after the 7 yr trib. As you say we will, If we are all changed into immortal bodies... Then who re-populates the world for the 1000 yr reign?
"please keep it short"

 

[watchman F]

Oh my Lord, you talk about long post,, maybe could cut them down a little. I have to admit after a couple of paragraphs I loose interest in reading...

I have one question for watchman F.
If we Christians are raptured at the second coming ie end of the age, after the 7 yr trib. As you say we will, If we are all changed into immortal bodies... Then who re-populates the world for the 1000 yr reign?
"please keep it short"

Jewish people and some (very few) Gentiles that realize Christ is Messiah and repent as He is returning. They would have missed the rapture, but be spared the wrath as well.


Remember God has a plan


P.S. Google Historical Premillennialism. What I believe is exactly what John the Apostle taught his disciple ploycarp, and Ireanius, and what was believed by the entire 1st Century church before false doctrines started taking hold in the church.

 

[freeway]

But wait.. watchman you posted verses that say "all". Now my understanding of all is everyone. So if everyone is changed.. The Jew has to become a Christian, thus changed at the second coming. The Christians that are living in the trib, well they to should be changed..Who again re populate the world?

watchman F. said: followed by these verses note verse 51 the word "all" this does not say some, a certain few, be Jew or Christian. But "all"
this is part of your proof:

#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

 

[watchman F]

But wait.. watchman you posted verses that say "all". Now my understanding of all is everyone. So if everyone is changed.. The Jew has to become a Christian, thus changed at the second coming. The Christians that are living in the trib, well they to should be changed..Who again re populate the world?

watchman F. said: followed by these verses note verse 51 the word "all" this does not say some, a certain few, be Jew or Christian. But "all"
this is part of your proof:

#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

The all in this sentence you should know are Christians. Not sinners nor those that have repented after the translation. All who are in Christ when He departs Heaven will be changed.

 

[freeway]

Watchman says:
The all in this sentence you should know are Christians. Not sinners nor those that have repented after the translation. All who are in Christ when He departs Heaven will be changed.

Then my question would be? Where is this partial rapture at in the bible, also the one about those that has not repented after the "translation?"

 

[watchman F]

Watchman says:
The all in this sentence you should know are Christians. Not sinners nor those that have repented after the translation. All who are in Christ when He departs Heaven will be changed.

Then my question would be? Where is this partial rapture at in the bible, also the one about those that has not repented after the "translation?"

I do not believe in a partial rapture, however as far as the Jews repenting at the site of their Messiah that is all over scripture.

Zechariah
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Romans 11
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

When the Jews see Jesus returning they will repent. It will be too late for them to be rapture seeing as the last trump would have laready sounded. However they will be spared the wrath, and enter the millennium in mortal bodies.


Like I said google Historical Premillenniumism, and find out what John the Apostle taught his disciples Polycarp, and Ireanius. I am pretty sure John knew what he was talking about seeing as he had receive revelation straight from Jesus Himself.

If you want to know the truth then go back to the root of the teaching and that is where the truth usually lies.

 

[XTruth]

May God give me the time to reply to all your "points".... nothing left me pondering. You made good points for your cause, though wrong in all of them. I may be able to squeeze a couple hours out Monday and teach you some things i.e. 2 Pt.3:10 is happening at the end of the Millennium. theres just so much to correct... Monday

 

[freeway]

Again watchman, you are mixing two trumpets for one, the scriptures does not say that this 7th trumpet blast during the trib is the same one that is blown before the trib. The Trumpet before the trib is for believers. The trumpet blow in the trib is for unbelievers. Which scriptures says: this trumpet makes the whole world angry... after all the trib is for a ungodly world. to put it in words, that at this time it late so I will copy and add link. and of course you get your info from a post trib site, and I will get mine form a pre trib site..
1) It is clear that the last trump (the trump of God) is about believers. More specifically, it is about the removal of believers (the Church) from the earth in the Rapture (I Thess. 4:13-18; I Cor. 15:51-53). The last trump on the trump of God will sound, the deceased believers will be raised (like Jesus, Lazarus and the Old Testament saints who were dead, buried and raised from the dead), the living believers will be changed (like Enoch and Elijah) and the entire Church will be caught up (or Raptured) into heaven at the same time. But the passage about the seventh trumpet is about unbelievers. More specifically, it is about those who are not in the Church (Rev. 11:15-19). When the angel blows the seventh trumpet it will cause anger on earth, lightening, thunder, an earthquake, great hail, and it will lead to the seven last plagues.

2) The last trump (the trump of God) will be an act of grace. It will call the undeserving Church into heaven. But the trumpet blown by the seventh angel during the Tribulation Period will be an act of wrath. It will signal divine judgment upon those on earth.

3) The last trump (the trump of God) will probably be blown by God (I Thess. 4:16). The seventh trumpet will be blown by the seventh angel (Rev. 11:15).

4) Concerning the events that will take place at the last trump (the trump of God), God tells the Church to “Comfort one another with these words†(I Thess. 4:18). Concerning the sounding of the seventh trumpet by the seventh angel, God said, “the nations will be angry†(Rev. 11:18). They will be angry because the first trumpet will be followed by the destruction of one-third of the plants (Rev. 8:7); the second trumpet will be followed by the destruction of one-third of the sea creatures and ships (Rev. 8:8-9); the third trumpet will be followed by the destruction of one-third of the fresh water (Rev. 8:10-11); the fourth trumpet will be followed by changes in one-third of the sun, moon and stars (Rev. 8:12); the fifth trumpet will be followed by the release of demon possessed locusts (Rev. 9:1-12); the sixth trumpet will be followed by the death of one-third of those on earth (Rev. 9:13-21); and the seventh trumpet will be followed by the seven vial judgments (Rev. 11:15-12:12). This is a far cry from the comforting message of the last trump (the trump of God).

5) When the last trump (the trump of God) sounds Jesus won’t be in heaven. Jesus will descend with a shout and remain in the clouds above the earth to meet the Church (I Thess. 4:16-17). There’s no mention of Jesus descending or shouting or remaining in the clouds when the seventh angel blows the seventh trumpet during the Tribulation Period. Jesus will probably still be on the throne in heaven.

6) The voice of God is not the sound of a trumpet blown by an angel (Rev. 11:15). It is a voice that sounds like a trumpet (Rev. 1:10; 4:10). There is a difference between the sound of a trumpet and a voice that sounds like a trumpet.
Some believe the ascension of the Two Witnesses is a picture of the Rapture. But the Church will be Raptured at the last trump (the Trump of God). On the other hand, the Two Witnesses will be raised from the dead and they will ascend before the seventh angel blows the seventh trumpet during the Tribulation Period. The Church will be Raptured in the twinkling of an eye. But the Two Witnesses will stand on their feet and the whole world will see them. Apparently, instead of being removed in the twinkling of an eye they will remain on earth after they are raised from the dead long enough for the television cameras to view them.

http://raptureready.com/featured/duck/dd11.html

 

[veteran]

Both trumpets, the one in 1 Thess.4 and the "last trump" in 1 Cor.15, are the same one. Watchman F is correct on that because both trumps are about the dead being raised, and that's the specific subject Paul was teaching in 1 Cor.15.

What many tend to miss from 1 Cor.15, is that as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly, meaning the change to the "spiritual body". How many have borne the image of the earthy? Does that include the unjust too? Yes, it does.

Paul makes a distinction that for death to be swallowed up in victory through Christ, 2 changes must occur, 1) change from the image of the earthy to the image of the heavenly ("spiritual body"), AND 2) "this mortal" must put on "immortality". All will be changed, for our Lord Jesus showed at the sound of His voice there will be two different types of resurrections, one for the just and another for the unjust. The resurrected unjust will not have put on "immortality", and will still... be subject to the "second death", which is the casting into the "lake of fire".

It's on that "last trump" when ALL will be changed from the image of the earthy to the image of the heavenly. ALL will see Christ's coming. But not all will be gathered to Christ.

Many also tend to forget the Rev.20:7-9 event of Satan being loosed after Christ's thousand years reign with His elect, when Satan will lead the deceived of the nations upon the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city", upon the "breadth of the earth". That has to mean, the gathering to Christ will be to that area on the earth where that "camp of the saints" will be located. That is where the last nine chapters of Ezekiel become important for study, which is about Ezekiel's temple on earth where those in Christ will reign from during the Milennium.

What's the picture? On the "last trump", all alive on earth will be changed to the image of the heavenly. This is HOW every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds. And the asleep saints will return with Christ, and His saints still alive on earth will be gathered with Him and the asleep saints at that time. That's the 1 Thess.4 event. Christ's return with His saints is to be in Jerusalem on earth (Zech.14). The Heavenly is going to be revealed on the earth, for everyone. But there will be a place of separation between the wicked and Christ's saints on the earth, and that's what that "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" of Rev.20:9 is about. The place of separation He called the "outer darkness", and He showed us in Rev.22:14-15 it is outside the gates of the beloved city.

 

[watchman F]

Thank you veteran for trying to shed the light of God's truth into this dark world. I just hope they will some how be able to see.

 

[freeway]

Both trumpets, the one in 1 Thess.4 and the "last trump" in 1 Cor.15, are the same one. Watchman F is correct on that because both trumps are about the dead being raised, and that's the specific subject Paul was teaching in 1 Cor.15.

Watchman, let me ask you, the christians from all races that are killed during the 7yr trib, are they not raised at the coming of Jesus? So this being true, then both resurection does not have to be at the end of the age.

What many tend to miss from 1 Cor.15, is that as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly, meaning the change to the "spiritual body". How many have borne the image of the earthy? Does that include the unjust too? Yes, it does.

Bible says when we are born again, become children of God, we pass from death to life, from darkness to light, from spiritually dead to alive.

Paul makes a distinction that for death to be swallowed up in victory through Christ, 2 changes must occur, 1) change from the image of the earthy to the image of the heavenly ("spiritual body"), AND 2) "this mortal" must put on "immortality". All will be changed, for our Lord Jesus showed at the sound of His voice there will be two different types of resurrections, one for the just and another for the unjust. The resurrected unjust will not have put on "immortality", and will still... be subject to the "second death", which is the casting into the "lake of fire".

Agreed.. we will live forever somewhere.

It's on that "last trump" when ALL will be changed from the image of the earthy to the image of the heavenly. ALL will see Christ's coming. But not all will be gathered to Christ.

Again the last trump you are talking about is at the judgment of God upon a sinners world, Antichrist, false religion, one world government, battle of Armageddon, etc, Christian that have died will be resurrected and given gloried bodies. The trump at the rapture of the Bride "Church" is for Christians alone, the wedding of Lamb.

Many also tend to forget the Rev.20:7-9 event of Satan being loosed after Christ's thousand years reign with His elect, when Satan will lead the deceived of the nations upon the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city", upon the "breadth of the earth". That has to mean, the gathering to Christ will be to that area on the earth where that "camp of the saints" will be located. That is where the last nine chapters of Ezekiel become important for study, which is about Ezekiel's temple on earth where those in Christ will reign from during the Milennium.

Not sure where you are going with this..

What's the picture? On the "last trump", all alive on earth will be changed to the image of the heavenly. This is HOW every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds. And the asleep saints will return with Christ, and His saints still alive on earth will be gathered with Him and the asleep saints at that time. That's the 1 Thess.4 event. Christ's return with His saints is to be in Jerusalem on earth (Zech.14). The Heavenly is going to be revealed on the earth, for everyone. But there will be a place of separation between the wicked and Christ's saints on the earth, and that's what that "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" of Rev.20:9 is about. The place of separation He called the "outer darkness", and He showed us in Rev.22:14-15 it is outside the gates of the beloved city.

All alive at the time of the second coming will not be changed into gloried bodies, but will enter into the 1000 yr reign of Christ. The Great White Throne judgment is the final judgment and the wicked "non believers along case into outer darkness, the end... watchman I feel this is going nowhere, so I am bowing out, thank you for your post on this matter. I will let someone else carry on if so needs. freeway

 

[watchman F]

Watchman, let me ask you, the christians from all races that are killed during the 7yr trib, are they not raised at the coming of Jesus? So this being true, then both resurection does not have to be at the end of the age.

The two resurrection are of the just and then of the unjust. The just are resurrected at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ followed by the translation of the living saints. The unjust are resurrected after the Millennium. There will be no resurrection or rapture of ''church age'' saints before the post trib return of Christ.

All alive at the time of the second coming will not be changed into gloried bodies, but will enter into the 1000 yr reign of Christ. The Great White Throne judgment is the final judgment and the wicked "non believers along case into outer darkness, the end

Actually scripture tells us believers are translated into immortal bodies after the Tribulation and enter the Millennium into immortal bodies.

watchman I feel this is going nowhere, so I am bowing out, thank you for your post on this matter. I will let someone else carry on if so needs. freeway

What you should do is open your heart to the truth. I pray one day you will set aside you false, pretrib, man made doctrine and accept the truth of God's word.

 

[freeway]

watchman f hopes:
What you should do is open your heart to the truth. I pray one day you will set aside you false, pretrib, man made doctrine and accept the truth of God's word.

What you should do is not be so judgmental. I have opened my heart to the Truth, His name is Jesus and yes I believe He layed His life down for me. All this other stuff, pre- mid- or post, is not going to change one thing with my walk with Christ. as I said before I can not and no one can know everything about the second coming "day or hour." but it's fun to speculate.

 

[watchman F]

watchman f hopes:
What you should do is open your heart to the truth. I pray one day you will set aside you false, pretrib, man made doctrine and accept the truth of God's word.

What you should do is not be so judgmental. I have opened my heart to the Truth, His name is Jesus and yes I believe He layed His life down for me. All this other stuff, pre- mid- or post, is not going to change one thing with my walk with Christ. as I said before I can not and no one can know everything about the second coming "day or hour." but it's fun to speculate.

I hope you are right and that it wont change your walk with Christ, but Jesus said about peopel who during the Trib believe He delayed His coming will turn from Him

Matthew 24
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I believe because they have been taught pretrib, and when the trib starts and they are not gone they are going to believe the Lord has broken His promise top remove them. They are going to say in their heart my Lord has delayed His coming. The false teaching of the pretrib rapture will shake the faith of many during the Trib. I pray you either come to the knowledge of this truth or at least will not waiver in your faith if we should face the Trib in our lifetime