6 point proof for the post trib rapture.

[NJBeliever]

May I humbly suggest that the post-tribulation rapture model is completely erroneous under Biblical scrutiny.

Before we get into a battle of posting Scriptures, let's just ask a logical Biblical question:

1) Is the specific time of the Second Coming of Christ an expected or unexpected event?

99% of the time this is why people get their rapture theology incorrect. When you examine this question Biblically, the answer is obvious and that should greatly affect how you view the rapture.

 

[rwbovee]

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Again watchman, you are mixing two trumpets for one, the scriptures does not say that this 7th trumpet blast during the trib is the same one that is blown before the trib. The Trumpet before the trib is for believers. The trumpet blow in the trib is for unbelievers. Which scriptures says: this trumpet makes the whole world angry... after all the trib is for a ungodly world. to put it in words, that at this time it late so I will copy and add link. and of course you get your info from a post trib site, and I will get mine form a pre trib site..
1) It is clear that the last trump (the trump of God) is about believers. More specifically, it is about the removal of believers (the Church) from the earth in the Rapture (I Thess. 4:13-18; I Cor. 15:51-53). The last trump on the trump of God will sound, the deceased believers will be raised (like Jesus, Lazarus and the Old Testament saints who were dead, buried and raised from the dead), the living believers will be changed (like Enoch and Elijah) and the entire Church will be caught up (or Raptured) into heaven at the same time. But the passage about the seventh trumpet is about unbelievers. More specifically, it is about those who are not in the Church (Rev. 11:15-19). When the angel blows the seventh trumpet it will cause anger on earth, lightening, thunder, an earthquake, great hail, and it will lead to the seven last plagues.

This is very innaccurate in whole i just cut it short for the sake of the length of the post. Here are some problems. Firstly it is claimed that the 7th trumpet isnt the same as the " last trump" for several reasons all of which are wrong. We are told a couple things in the 7th trump which show great things for the saints!
Besides the point that we see this happen at the timing of the resurection of the rightous dead we also see this:Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come(1), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, (2)and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
I added the 1 and 2 in there so i can talk about it in sections. First is " the nations were angry and THY WRATH IS COME. The nations are angry becuase NOW is the time of wrath. NOTHING before this in revelation was ever called Gods wrath! not the first 5 seals, not the first 6 trumpets- none of them is called Gods wrath. It is at THIS TRUMPET that God's wrath comes. This fits perfectly with what paul tells us1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
It is only men who want to call the other seals and trumpets Gods wrath and they do that because it sounds bad - to them- not because the word of God says it it is so. And the book of rev is very clear that at the 6th seal and 7th trump wrath BEGINS and all the 7 vials are wrath as well as armegedeon when the wrath is finished. We can see by the timing of rev 11 that this 7th trump happens and wrath comes when the resurection of the dead happens and the rapture. This article put forth the idea that this trump cannot be both of grace and judgement but the word shows it differntly. The word shows the saints praising God and being resurected and it shows the nations angry. WHY? Because we saints will not be in darkness so it comes to us as a thief we will be waiting and expecting and watching and we will be taken when wrath is come while THEY are appointed to wrath so they are angry.

Now to point 2 which is thatRev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

THIS trumpet is the time that WE get our reward!What is our reward? Our eternal life- our innocorruption of the new body- our crowns- our ruling and reigning with Christ! We get this when we go to be with Him. There are saints all over this chapter, being raised from the dead, being caught up to God being given their rewards and just NOW at this trumpet is wrath coming.

What does Jesus say in matt 24 after telling of us goingto Him after the trib?
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 ¶ Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. =REWARD-
and again
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. =REWARD-
and again
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: =REWARD-
and again
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. =REWARD-
1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.


1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?


1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.


1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[watchman F]

May I humbly suggest that the post-tribulation rapture model is completely erroneous under Biblical scrutiny.

Before we get into a battle of posting Scriptures, let's just ask a logical Biblical question:

1) Is the specific time of the Second Coming of Christ an expected or unexpected event?

99% of the time this is why people get their rapture theology incorrect. When you examine this question Biblically, the answer is obvious and that should greatly affect how you view the rapture.

Scripture tells us two specific thing about the timing of the 2nd coming.
#1 It occurs immediately after the Tribulation.
#2 No one knows the day or hour.

So I would say it is expected. Further more I believe we will know when it is near, just as Christ told us to. However just like a pregnant woman with a due date, even though we will know the approximate time we will not know the exact day or hour. Finally the fact that scripture is abundantly clear in more than one place that Christ return is after the tribulation and that the resurrection of the just as well as the gathering of the living are at His return there is no other biblical conclusion, but to accept the fact that the rapture is indeed post tribulational.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

We are ALSO told that

1) Jesus comes as a thief in the night to those in darkness
2) We do not know what hour our Lord comes but we know that He comes and if we are in the light, it will not overtake us as a thief but we will be waiting, watching, and sober.

 

[watchman F]

We are ALSO told that

1) Jesus comes as a thief in the night to those in darkness
2) We do not know what hour our Lord comes but we know that He comes and if we are in the light, it will not overtake us as a thief but we will be waiting, watching, and sober.

Exactly........

The righteous will be able to see the signs of the end and will be eagerly awaiting the soon return of Christ, while on the other hand the wicked and unbelieving will be living their lives as normal and Christ will return suddenly and unexpectedly to them and destroy them.
1st Thessalonians 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, bretheren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
You see that day will not overtake us '' the righteous'' unaware as a thief but only the unbelieving.
Luke 21:26-28
26 Mens hearts falling them for fear, and for looking after those thins that are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
When the tribulation is at it's worse we will know are redemption is drawing near, but the wicked will be going on about their lives.
Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
Noah knew the flood was coming and prepared himself accordingly, but the wicked knew not and were destroyed unaware. So too, will we know Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked and we will be prepared accordingly, but the wicked will be taken off guard, To them he returns as a thief not to us.

 

[NJBeliever]

May I humbly suggest that the post-tribulation rapture model is completely erroneous under Biblical scrutiny.

Before we get into a battle of posting Scriptures, let's just ask a logical Biblical question:

1) Is the specific time of the Second Coming of Christ an expected or unexpected event?

99% of the time this is why people get their rapture theology incorrect. When you examine this question Biblically, the answer is obvious and that should greatly affect how you view the rapture.

Scripture tells us two specific thing about the timing of the 2nd coming.
#1 It occurs immediately after the Tribulation.
#2 No one knows the day or hour.

So I would say it is expected. Further more I believe we will know when it is near, just as Christ told us to. However just like a pregnant woman with a due date, even though we will know the approximate time we will not know the exact day or hour. Finally the fact that scripture is abundantly clear in more than one place that Christ return is after the tribulation and that the resurrection of the just as well as the gathering of the living are at His return there is no other biblical conclusion, but to accept the fact that the rapture is indeed post tribulational.

And you would be correct. The Second Coming is 100% EXPECTED. Anyone with a Bible can just follow the trumpet and bowl judgments in their order and know when Christ is coming. In Revelation 19 when we see the Antichrist gathering the armies of the world, they KNOW Christ is coming. They are preparing to fight Him. The Euphrates river dries up just so the Kings of the east can make it to the designated battleground. So even the heathen knows he's coming.

So why the confusion over these verses? Because CHrist discusses the Day of The Lord and His Second Coming. They are two distinct, separate events. If you do a cursory study of the Day of The Lord in the Old Testament this is abundantly obvious. This is why so many people have flawed rapture models (and all 3 of the big 3 are wrong).

I urge you to just consider that point. The Day of The Lord, which stars the outpouring of God's wrath is completely unexpected. The rapture is preceded by this (and no, it's not at the first seal). This is the "sudden destruction." By the Second COming, everyone knows. You can count 7 porophetic years. You can just read a Bible. It's all laid, sign by sign, plague by plague.

I can explain much more with Scripture but I urge my brothers and sisters to just consider this one point first because it is pivotal to understanding New testament scripture on the rapture and the Second Coming. They are definitely 100% NOT the same event. God bless.

 

[Vic C.]

So why the confusion over these verses? Because CHrist discusses the Day of The Lord and His Second Coming. They are two distinct, separate events. If you do a cursory study of the Day of The Lord in the Old Testament this is abundantly obvious. This is why so many people have flawed rapture models (and all 3 of the big 3 are wrong)

I believe the DOTL and Jesus' advent are both part of what is called, the Parousia. We must also remember when looking at the OT, there are more that one DOTL being written about. An in-depth study of tribulation and wrath in the OT and NT indicates these too are separate events. Many well=meaning teachers teach both events are one in the same.

They would be wrong.

All I am sure about is something extraordinary happens to believers, dead and alive, just prior to God's final wrath on this world.

 

[NJBeliever]

So why the confusion over these verses? Because CHrist discusses the Day of The Lord and His Second Coming. They are two distinct, separate events. If you do a cursory study of the Day of The Lord in the Old Testament this is abundantly obvious. This is why so many people have flawed rapture models (and all 3 of the big 3 are wrong)

I believe the DOTL and Jesus' advent are both part of what is called, the Parousia. We must also remember when looking at the OT, there are more that one DOTL being written about. An in-depth study of tribulation and wrath in the OT and NT indicates these too are separate events. Many well=meaning teachers teach both events are one in the same.

They would be wrong.

All I am sure about is something extraordinary happens to believers, dead and alive, just prior to God's final wrath on this world.

Isaiah 26: 19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

There's the extraordinary thing. It's the rapture. And it precedes the Day of The Lord.

 

[veteran]

Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thess.5, and 2 Thess.2 that Christ's coming, the gathering of the saints, all happen on the day of the Lord, and linked it with Christ coming "as a thief in the night". Peter showed the same thing in 2 Peter 3:10. And our Lord Jesus Himself said He comes "as a thief" in Rev.16:15. That's solid Bible proof that Christ's coming, His gathering of the saints, and His wrath upon the wicked all happen within the same timeframe.

 

[Boanerges]

Just my view but if we are walking with Jesus why should the tribulation be so fearful?
The plagues seem to parallel those God used to judge Egypt, God kept His people from those plagues making a distinction between them and the Egyptians.
If the Lord allows us to see these days He will certainly give us the grace to endure them and the privilege of glorifying His Name. Jesus never promised us a rose garden but instead said we would suffer persecution, tribulation in this world and all manner of trial. The important fact is He promised to be with us through these trials.
I am not trying to side track this thread but I have always been curious as to why so many seem terrified at the thought of going through the end times. Even now there are more Christians being martyred for Jesus Namesake than anytime in history.
And yes, although not dogmatic I am mostly postrib. I do believe when it all wraps up there will be some surprises for all of us though.

 

[watchman F]

Just my view but if we are walking with Jesus why should the tribulation be so fearful?
The plagues seem to parallel those God used to judge Egypt, God kept His people from those plagues making a distinction between them and the Egyptians.
If the Lord allows us to see these days He will certainly give us the grace to endure them and the privilege of glorifying His Name. Jesus never promised us a rose garden but instead said we would suffer persecution, tribulation in this world and all manner of trial. The important fact is He promised to be with us through these trials.
I am not trying to side track this thread but I have always been curious as to why so many seem terrified at the thought of going through the end times. Even now there are more Christians being martyred for Jesus Namesake than anytime in history.
And yes, although not dogmatic I am mostly postrib. I do believe when it all wraps up there will be some surprises for all of us though.

Excellent post boanerges

 

[veteran]

Just my view but if we are walking with Jesus why should the tribulation be so fearful?
The plagues seem to parallel those God used to judge Egypt, God kept His people from those plagues making a distinction between them and the Egyptians.
If the Lord allows us to see these days He will certainly give us the grace to endure them and the privilege of glorifying His Name. Jesus never promised us a rose garden but instead said we would suffer persecution, tribulation in this world and all manner of trial. The important fact is He promised to be with us through these trials.
I am not trying to side track this thread but I have always been curious as to why so many seem terrified at the thought of going through the end times. Even now there are more Christians being martyred for Jesus Namesake than anytime in history.
And yes, although not dogmatic I am mostly postrib. I do believe when it all wraps up there will be some surprises for all of us though.

And that's exactly it, our Lord wants His people prepared to make a 'stand' in the "evil day", the tribulation. And to prepare for His coming and wrath upon the wicked. Many of the Rev. plagues are a direct parallel to the plagues upon Egypt in the days of Moses. That's why our Lord said this about the final deliverance of His people who believe on Him through His Son...

Jer 16:14-15
14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, That brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
15 But, The LORD liveth, That brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither He had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
(KJV)

 

[NJBeliever]

Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thess.5, and 2 Thess.2 that Christ's coming, the gathering of the saints, all happen on the day of the Lord, and linked it with Christ coming "as a thief in the night". Peter showed the same thing in 2 Peter 3:10. And our Lord Jesus Himself said He comes "as a thief" in Rev.16:15. That's solid Bible proof that Christ's coming, His gathering of the saints, and His wrath upon the wicked all happen within the same timeframe.

And this is wrong.

 

[NJBeliever]

Just my view but if we are walking with Jesus why should the tribulation be so fearful?
The plagues seem to parallel those God used to judge Egypt, God kept His people from those plagues making a distinction between them and the Egyptians.
If the Lord allows us to see these days He will certainly give us the grace to endure them and the privilege of glorifying His Name. Jesus never promised us a rose garden but instead said we would suffer persecution, tribulation in this world and all manner of trial. The important fact is He promised to be with us through these trials.
I am not trying to side track this thread but I have always been curious as to why so many seem terrified at the thought of going through the end times. Even now there are more Christians being martyred for Jesus Namesake than anytime in history.
And yes, although not dogmatic I am mostly postrib. I do believe when it all wraps up there will be some surprises for all of us though.

Excellent post boanerges

So what are those who are saved during the Day of The Lord/70th week doing when all these things are happening (i.e., the trumpet and bowl judgments)? We shouldn't be suffering at all since Paul told us "when THEY say peace and safety" sudden destruction will come upon "them."

 

[watchman F]

Just my view but if we are walking with Jesus why should the tribulation be so fearful?
The plagues seem to parallel those God used to judge Egypt, God kept His people from those plagues making a distinction between them and the Egyptians.
If the Lord allows us to see these days He will certainly give us the grace to endure them and the privilege of glorifying His Name. Jesus never promised us a rose garden but instead said we would suffer persecution, tribulation in this world and all manner of trial. The important fact is He promised to be with us through these trials.
I am not trying to side track this thread but I have always been curious as to why so many seem terrified at the thought of going through the end times. Even now there are more Christians being martyred for Jesus Namesake than anytime in history.
And yes, although not dogmatic I am mostly postrib. I do believe when it all wraps up there will be some surprises for all of us though.

Excellent post boanerges

So what are those who are saved during the Day of The Lord/70th week doing when all these things are happening (i.e., the trumpet and bowl judgments)? We shouldn't be suffering at all since Paul told us "when THEY say peace and safety" sudden destruction will come upon "them."

The sudden destruction comes at the end of all of this as Christ returning after He resurrects the just, and translates the living saints.

 

[Vic C.]

I agree, for the most part, Watchman. I'm fairly certain that "sudden destruction" refers to the DOTL, God's Wrath. I'm also pretty certain that removal (rapture) or protection (translation/change) is what takes place just prior to the Wrath. I believe it's fair to say salvation will have ceased by the start of the DOTL.

 

[NJBeliever]

wraps up there will be some surprises for all of us though.

Excellent post boanerges

So what are those who are saved during the Day of The Lord/70th week doing when all these things are happening (i.e., the trumpet and bowl judgments)? We shouldn't be suffering at all since Paul told us "when THEY say peace and safety" sudden destruction will come upon "them."[/quote]The sudden destruction comes at the end of all of this as Christ returning after He resurrects the just, and translates the living saints.[/quote]

So in other words, the global earthquake the moves every island and mountain on Earth and would be the equivalent of 1,000 times the Asian tsunami, AND has every powerful person running into holes for their lives, and screaming that the "the day of God's WRATH has come!!!" is not the "sudden destruction." Interesting....

 

[Mysteryman]

I agree, for the most part, Watchman. I'm fairly certain that "sudden destruction" refers to the DOTL, God's Wrath. I'm also pretty certain that removal (rapture) or protection (translation/change) is what takes place just prior to the Wrath. I believe it's fair to say salvation will have ceased by the start of the DOTL.

Hi Vic

I can agree that the gathering up of the saints takes place prior to the wrath of God. I think were many disagree , is the exact point in time prior to this DOTL, which is his second coming.

I believe that there are two days of the Lord, and not one. This again might not fully clear up when one might think that the church is gathered up. But it does point towards a more precise time at least.


I believe that the first day of the Lord is the gathering up - II Thess. 2:2, and before this gathering up occurs, there first needs to be a falling away first.

I believe that the reason Paul states in I Thess. 5:2 that Christ coming back to gather up the church , as a thief in the night. Is because of the falling away that has taken place. The church is suppose to be looking for the hope. The hope is the expectation of the gathering up of the saints. But what will happen, is that they will fall away from looking for the Lord in their faith. Once this falling away has taken place, Christ will come back as a thief in the night. Which means when we christians least expect his coming to gather up the church. The lights of the world here upon earth are the Christians. Once the lights of the world stop believing , then they stop expressing this truth that Christ is coming to gather up the church, which we are the lights of the world.

Once the lights are gone, darkness remains here upon the earth from a spiritual POV.

This then begins the tribulation period which lines up with the sixth seal. < Here is where things get sticky . At least within discussions such as this. Many go about to make claims using all the different angels that are presented them throughout scripture. Not that looking at all these prophesies as being the wrong thing to do. Indeed this we should do. But many confuse the many things that are said within these prophesies , to the point that the true meaning is lost.

Bless - IN Christ - MM

 

[veteran]

There can be no conflict with what our Lord Jesus said here...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

Both, the resurrection of the just, AND the resurrection of the unjust, happen at the same time per that.

Just because some fail to understand how God can pour His wrath upon the wicked while protecting His servants doesn't mean it's OK to split the those resurrections into two different time periods.