A Blended Gospel

[NIGHTMARE]

The Mosaic law says thou shalt not steal,,,,,is this still in effect????

No it is not. At least not as a "rule". The picture that Paul gives us is one where the believer is given the Holy Spririt, and is to be guided by that. To think in terms of "living by rules" is to miss the point of one of the great aspects of covenant renewal - the writing of the law on the heart. Now what I am saying here is a little bit of a simplification, and I am not suggesting that we should look to the Old Testament for "guidance". But, the life of the believer this side of the cross should not be primarily "rule driven". Now I can understand a number of objections to this answer, even from those who share my view that Torah is retired. I would need to write much more to fully express my position on this. But one thing I think is beyond scriptural doubt - the Law of Moses, as a written code, has been done away with.

And please do not ask me if this means that I believe its ok to rob a bank.

Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves."

If you do not know the law,,,then you use common sense....So in truth common sense becomes the law,,,this is why they are a law to themselves.....Most people have some idea of right and wrong, even if they dont know the law....So by nature (common sense) they do things contained in the law.....

Romans 2:15 "Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)"

Even people and nations that dont have the law have common sense and a conscience.....

I think you have misunderstood these verses. Paul is not talking about "people in general" here, he is talking about Gentile Christians in particular. Big difference. I will post a detailed argument for this tomorrow.

Alright,,,,but the word is simple.....

You say the Mosiac law is retired,,,,,

Here are a couple things from the Mosaic law,,,,please tell me,,,YES or NO,,,,are these laws retired?????

13 You shall not murder.

14 You shall not commit adultery.

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor

Ok now tell me,,,YES or NO,,,,are these laws retired??????

If you say yes,,,,,,,then I will ask you what keeps people from murdering and killing other people and stealing and coveting??????? I say the law keeps people from doing it,,,which means the law is not retired,,,,You say the spirit (or maybe grace or something like that) keeps people from breaking the law.....

But thats a joke to me,,,because I know people,,,I have friends that dont believe in GOd at all,,,I mean not one single bit,,,,,,,but they dont steal,,,and murder and covet,,thinking its alright.....

For the most part,,,people understand the law is still in effect,,,,thats why paul was able to say,,,

Romans 2:14
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves."

But are the laws retired (yes) or (no)..... :dunno

 

[Drew]

Alright,,,,but the word is simple.....

You say the Mosiac law is retired,,,,,

Here are a couple things from the Mosaic law,,,,please tell me,,,YES or NO,,,,are these laws retired?????

13 You shall not murder.

14 You shall not commit adultery.

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor

Ok now tell me,,,YES or NO,,,,are these laws retired??????

Yes, they are retired.

But please do not commit the error of logic of concluding that this means that I think it is OK to murder, commit adultery, steal, or bear false witness.

If you say yes,,,,,,,then I will ask you what keeps people from murdering and killing other people and stealing and coveting??????? I say the law keeps people from doing it,,,which means the law is not retired,,,,You say the spirit (or maybe grace or something like that) keeps people from breaking the law.....

Indeed, I say, following Paul, that the Holy Spirit guides the believer.

But thats a joke to me,,,because I know people,,,I have friends that dont believe in GOd at all,,,I mean not one single bit,,,,,,,but they dont steal,,,and murder and covet,,thinking its alright.....

The fact that people who have never read the 10 commandments, or otherwise dismiss them, do not murder and covet is not evidence that the law is in effect. And as per the next post, I believe you have misunderstood the stuff in Romans 2.

For the most part,,,people understand the law is still in effect,,,,

Well, most people need to read their Bibles more carefully - the Law of Moses is retired.

 

[Drew]

In Romans 2, there is a statement about the “law†being written on the heart of the Gentile:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Although this text is widely seen as suggesting that God’s “law†is written on the hearts of human beings in general, Paul here is instead describing the writing of the “law†on the hearts of believers (and in this context, specifically Gentile believers).

The entire discussion turns on the Greek word that has been translated here in the NASB as “instinctively†in verse 14. I am going to argue that this rendering does not properly express Paul’s intent. I will argue that Paul basis assertion is not this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively do the things of the Law…â€Â

…but instead this:

"when Gentiles who do not have the Law by birth, do the things of the Law….

The reader should note that while the first rendering indeed suggests that pagan Gentiles have a form of law written on their hearts, the second rendering in no sense preferentially supports such a reading over a reading where it is only believing Gentiles that have the law written on their heart (the position that I hold).

The greek root word at issue is “fuseiâ€Â, which is often translated as “by nature†(although not in the NASB rendering of 2:14 where it is rendered as “instinctivelyâ€Â). The western reader should be careful to understand this properly. Paul uses this very same word, in other contexts, to denote what is true of someone by virtue of the circumstances of their birth. One example is Ephesian 2:3:

We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles

Clearly, Paul means "by birth" here. He is not asserting that Jews are born with fundamentally different inner constitutions than Gentiles.

Perhaps more tellingly, we have this same root “fusei†used just a few verses further on in Romans 2:

27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

The same Greek root “fusei†is rendered here as “physically†and as “instinctively†in verse 14. Note how the word is rendered in the YLT translation of 2:27:

and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, [art] a transgressor of law.

Clearly the term “fusei†should be understood as having a “by birth†meaning here in verse 27 – being uncircumcised is a circumstance of birth for the Gentile. It seems only reasonable that Paul uses this same greek root in the same “by birth†sense only a few verses back in 2:14.

Thus, it is highly plausible that what Paul is saying in about the law in verse 14 is that the Gentiles do not possess it by the circumstances of their birth, and not that the unregenerate Gentile has an innate, or instinctive sense of the law.

In fact, note how Jeremiah, uses very same “law written on the heart†concept:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

Note how the prophet uses “law written on the heart†language to describe something that willhappen in the future and will which will be effective only for believers. Paul is deeply knowledgeable of Old Testament concepts and would more likely than not use “law written on the heart†language in the same way it was used in the Old Testament.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Alright,,,,but the word is simple.....

You say the Mosiac law is retired,,,,,

Here are a couple things from the Mosaic law,,,,please tell me,,,YES or NO,,,,are these laws retired?????

13 You shall not murder.

14 You shall not commit adultery.

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor

Ok now tell me,,,YES or NO,,,,are these laws retired??????

Yes, they are retired.

But please do not commit the error of logic of concluding that this means that I think it is OK to murder, commit adultery, steal, or bear false witness.

If you say yes,,,,,,,then I will ask you what keeps people from murdering and killing other people and stealing and coveting??????? I say the law keeps people from doing it,,,which means the law is not retired,,,,You say the spirit (or maybe grace or something like that) keeps people from breaking the law.....

Indeed, I say, following Paul, that the Holy Spirit guides the believer.

But thats a joke to me,,,because I know people,,,I have friends that dont believe in GOd at all,,,I mean not one single bit,,,,,,,but they dont steal,,,and murder and covet,,thinking its alright.....

The fact that people who have never read the 10 commandments, or otherwise dismiss them, do not murder and covet is not evidence that the law is in effect. And as per the next post, I believe you have misunderstood the stuff in Romans 2.

For the most part,,,people understand the law is still in effect,,,,

Well, most people need to read their Bibles more carefully - the Law of Moses is retired.

G mornig Drew,,,,,,

Im kinda anxious to read you next post,,,so I will keep this one short......It kinda seems like your playing both sides here.....

You say that the mosiac law is retired,,,meaning that,,,,Thou shalt not steal and Thou shalt not murder are retired.....But then you say you dont believe it is ok to murder or steal.....

Is it the spirit that keeps you from muredering and stealing or is it the law???????

I can say for many it is the law,,,so then how is the law retired.......

 

[Drew]

You say that the mosiac law is retired,,,meaning that,,,,Thou shalt not steal and Thou shalt not murder are retired.....But then you say you dont believe it is ok to murder or steal.....

I am not sure why you find this confusing. There is probably no "law" against many things that we otherwise know we should not do.

Is it the spirit that keeps you from muredering and stealing or is it the law???????

I would say that it is the Spirit.

I can say for many it is the law,,,so then how is the law retired.......

But NM, do you not understand that the Law was only ever for Jews? So it never applied to the vast swathe of humanity anyway.

I get this sense that when you read "Law", you think in terms of some kind of global moral law. That is not what the Torah - the Law of Moses - is. It is a law for Jews and Jews only.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

You say that the mosiac law is retired,,,meaning that,,,,Thou shalt not steal and Thou shalt not murder are retired.....But then you say you dont believe it is ok to murder or steal.....

I am not sure why you find this confusing. There is probably no "law" against many things that we otherwise know we should not do.

Is it the spirit that keeps you from muredering and stealing or is it the law???????

I would say that it is the Spirit.

I can say for many it is the law,,,so then how is the law retired.......

But NM, do you not understand that the Law was only ever for Jews? So it never applied to the vast swathe of humanity anyway.

I get this sense that when you read "Law", you think in terms of some kind of global moral law. That is not what the Torah - the Law of Moses - is. It is a law for Jews and Jews only.

Ok pause in program,,,,,,,,we need to cover something,,,because you keep throwing this word "Jew " out there and,,, I am totally convinced that you dont understand what it means.......Please read casrefully:::

In the book of Kings the nation of Israel split into 2 seperate nations........

Because of there Idolatry and man worship,,,,God split them,,,,,,,from this period the 10 tribes are Israel they will later go into captivity from the Assyrians,,,when they are free they go north over the mountains (caucus) and settle in the americas.....These are not Jews!!!!

The other 2 tribes (Benjamin and Judah) go into captivity from the Babylonians,,,but when they are freed they return with some of the priests from the Levites......

Get it Judah = Jew ,,,,,,,The Jews come from the tribe of Benjamin Judah and some Levi.....

SO when you say

the Law of Moses - is. It is a law for Jews and Jews only.

But NM, do you not understand that the Law was only ever for Jews

But Drew,,,
There was no such thing as a Jew when Moses was alive,,,Israel had not split until around 920 bc,,,,just food for thought......

No returning to Blended Gospel......

 

[Drew]

Ok pause in program,,,,,,,,we need to cover something,,,because you keep throwing this word "Jew " out there and,,, I am totally convinced that you dont understand what it means.......Please read casrefully:::

You keep telling me that I do not understand things. With all due respect, I think the shoe is on the other foot.

In the book of Kings the nation of Israel split into 2 seperate nations........

Because of there Idolatry and man worship,,,,God split them,,,,,,,from this period the 10 tribes are Israel they will later go into captivity from the Assyrians,,,when they are free they go north over the mountains (caucus) and settle in the americas.....These are not Jews!!!!

Settle in the Americas? I would like to see any evidence of that.

I am well aware of the split - it is not relevant. When the Law - the Torah was given - the 12 tribes were one. My point remains - the Torah was given to the the 12 tribes. So what if they later fractured. That is not relevant to the matter on the table.

But Drew,,,
There was no such thing as a Jew when Moses was alive,,,Israel had not split until around 920 bc,,,,just food for thought......

All right then - the Law was for the 12 tribes only. Trust me NM, you will find no one who really knows their Bible who thinks that the Law of Moses was intended for all the nations. It is only for "Israel".

 

[Drew]

By the way, Paul certainly thought in terms of the Law being for the "Jew":

Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law;

And lest there be any misunderstanding, Paul also is clear that the law is not for the Gentile:

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

This can be read as stating that the Gentile is "apart from the law" and the Jew is "under the Law".

Now since I am continually agreeing with Paul, do you really think it is me who is mistaken about the status of the law and who it is for?

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Ok pause in program,,,,,,,,we need to cover something,,,because you keep throwing this word "Jew " out there and,,, I am totally convinced that you dont understand what it means.......Please read casrefully:::

You keep telling me that I do not understand things. With all due respect, I think the shoe is on the other foot.

In the book of Kings the nation of Israel split into 2 seperate nations........

Because of there Idolatry and man worship,,,,God split them,,,,,,,from this period the 10 tribes are Israel they will later go into captivity from the Assyrians,,,when they are free they go north over the mountains (caucus) and settle in the americas.....These are not Jews!!!!

Settle in the Americas? I would like to see any evidence of that.

I am well aware of the split - it is not relevant. When the Law - the Torah was given - the 12 tribes were one. My point remains - the Torah was given to the the 12 tribes. So what if they later fractured. That is not relevant to the matter on the table.

But Drew,,,
There was no such thing as a Jew when Moses was alive,,,Israel had not split until around 920 bc,,,,just food for thought......

All right then - the Law was for the 12 tribes only. Trust me NM, you will find no one who really knows their Bible who thinks that the Law of Moses was intended for all the nations. It is only for "Israel".

You keep telling me that I do not understand things. With all due respect, I think the shoe is on the other foot.

aennn I dont think so,,,,but time is a great tester..........

Settle in the Americas? I would like to see any evidence of that.

I am well aware of the split - it is not relevant. When the Law - the Torah was given - the 12 tribes were one. My point remains - the Torah was given to the the 12 tribes. So what if they later fractured. That is not relevant to the matter on the table.

Well if your posting from the americas,,,look around......But surely if you know what a "Jew" is then you understand the other 10 tribes came out of captivity and went north (This is just plain ol history) They traveled over the mountains and settled....Where do you think Brits Celts Saxon's come from?????

Just research the tribes,,, they traveled north.....

All right then - the Law was for the 12 tribes only. Trust me NM, you will find no one who really knows their Bible who thinks that the Law of Moses was intended for all the nations. It is only for "Israel".

Ok well then we are clear so your not addressing "Jews" you are refering to the whole nation of Israel/Jews.......

Trust me NM, you will find no one who really knows their Bible who thinks that the Law of Moses was intended for all the nations

That cant really be judged,,,I could present someone,,,,, and you could dismiss them because they dont hold your view......Does that person know there bible,,,,To you,,,im thinking not....

But The gentiles were grafted in,,,,that means they are under the same order,,,,,unless you believe the law is retired for Israel also?????

Romans 11:17 "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

 

[AAA]

Well, most people need to read their Bibles more carefully - the Law of Moses is retired.

What do you make of Matthew 5:17-20?

 

[Drew]

Well, most people need to read their Bibles more carefully - the Law of Moses is retired.

What do you make of Matthew 5:17-20?

Good question.

This is a repost of something I have written in this thread already:

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, Torah has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Torah, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€Â.

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Torah do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Torah was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal (building, of course, on the ideas of others – I am no Bible scholar) hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Torah was retired.

Of course, the argument here is only sketch, but I present the above as a plausibility argument that there may be a way to legitimately read Jesus here as not declaring that the Torah will remain in force basically to the end of time.

 

[Drew]

]Trust me NM, you will find no one who really knows their Bible who thinks that the Law of Moses was intended for all the nations

That cant really be judged,,,I could present someone,,,,, and you could dismiss them because they dont hold your view......Does that person know there bible,,,,To you,,,im thinking not....

It can be judged. And that other person you talk about would not be Biblically literate. The scriptures are clear that the Law of Moses was for the nation of Israel only. This is one of those things that there really should be no debate about. Here, from the book of Leviticus, we have a clear statement about the function of the Law of Moses:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

These food laws are part of the Law of Moses. And what is God saying about the Law? He is saying that it serves to set the nation of Israel apart from the other nations.

I do not wish to be rude, but anyone who knows Paul's writing would never doubt for a minute that the Law of Moses was given to the nation of Israel only. You talk about people having "other opinions" about this. That may be so, but their opinions are clearly incorrect.

The Law of Moses is for Israel only. Shall I give you the Paul position on this?

 

[Drew]

But The gentiles were grafted in,,,,that means they are under the same order,,,,,unless you believe the law is retired for Israel also?????

Romans 11:17 "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

I think I have been clear - the Law is retired. Period. It is done, done, done. When it was in effect, it was for the nation of Israel. Now it is retired. And, yes, the Gentiles have been grafted in.

 

[AAA]

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Torah was retired.

Of course, the argument here is only sketch, but I present the above as a plausibility argument that there may be a way to legitimately read Jesus here as not declaring that the Torah will remain in force basically to the end of time.

I respect your clear reasoning (as I have in all of your posts that I have come across in my brief time here), but I don't personally find that explanation plausible. Jesus' words are perfectly clear. It doesn't make sense to me that he would only want people to observe/respect the Torah while he was alive, and then link his "It is accomplished" quote with the "until all is accomplished" quote so that they could end up recognizing that the Torah was, in fact, retired at that moment, despite the rest of his words (see below). That's too much of a stretch to justify ignoring the plain meaning of his words for me.

Why not explicitly state that the Torah is retired while he was alive if that was his intention? Short of that, why would he bother saying: "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven". It seems to me that he put a very fine point on it indeed.

Personally, I would take a quote from Jesus as carrying more weight than the opinions of his disciples.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

But The gentiles were grafted in,,,,that means they are under the same order,,,,,unless you believe the law is retired for Israel also?????

Romans 11:17 "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

I think I have been clear - the Law is retired. Period. It is done, done, done. When it was in effect, it was for the nation of Israel. Now it is retired. And, yes, the Gentiles have been grafted in.

I dont understand how you dont see your err......

You say the law is retired.......Ok fine.....

The law says you cannot murder and steal......you say this is retired,,,,then you say you follow it....

Its simple,,,either there is a law against stealing and murdering or there isnt,,,,,,you say there isnt....... But Americas laws and principles were founded off the bible.......As a matter of fact The law for Murdering,,Stealing,,,,Sleeping with anothers mans wife is pretty much the same,,,,if you do it you will get in trouble.....

These concepts are the law,,,,,and weather a person believes in God or not they probably hold these views....

See you can over-think and over-analyize scriptures,,,but and the end of the day your point makes no sense..... But we gotta just agree dis-agree......

 

[Drew]

Why not explicitly state that the Torah is retired while he was alive if that was his intention?.

There are other things I should respond to in your post, but I do not have time now. This one, though, I think I can address. Jesus clearly does declare the end of Torah in his Mark 7 encounter with the Pharisees over the Torah food laws. Torah forbids eating of certain foods - if eaten, one is rendered "unclean". Now what does Jesus say?:

"Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: 15there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him

How is this not an overturning of the Torah, at least in respect to the food laws, which were indeed part of the Torah?

 

[Drew]

You say the law is retired.......Ok fine.....

The law says you cannot murder and steal......you say this is retired,,,,then you say you follow it....

I have never said anything of the sort.

I am only following Paul and Jesus - the written code of Torah is retired. But this no more mean thats OK to murder and steal than it would be OK to murder and steal if, for some strange reason, the government of the United States repealed all laws against theft and murder.

You are in a very difficult spot - Paul and Jesus declare that the written code of Torah is retired. Why you disagree with them is your business.

But please do not tell me and the other readers that because I think the Torah is retired, I have no sensible basis to not murder and steal. As I have just said, even if all the laws of the Land were immediately repealed, you and I both know that its not "OK" to murder and steal.

 

[AAA]

Torah forbids eating of certain foods - if eaten, one is rendered "unclean". Now what does Jesus say?:

"Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: 15there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him

How is this not an overturning of the Torah, at least in respect to the food laws, which were indeed part of the Torah?

Thanks for that Drew. I agree with the latter part of your rhetorical question, and I would say that between the quote you provided and Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus is clearly contradicting himself.