A case for the Trinity

[francisdesales]

This {"Jesus and His Father are equal" is a part of trinity but you guys cannot prove that, and it is flat out unbiblical. It is proven with plenty of verses} is completely false and has been shown to be so.

No, no one did. If you can, then do so. I can refute it.

Really? How about the Shema to Jesus???

How about honoring the Son JUST AS the Father???

Shad, you have never once addressed either of these, for some reason, you mysteriously shut up when these are brought up...

 

[Mysteryman]

Thats funny !

I never have denied the divine nature of Jesus Christ ! In case one forgets, he is the only begotten Son of God, you know !

I thought this thread was about - make a case for the trinity. And not about making a case for the divinity of Jesus Christ !

 

[dadof10]

Quote dadof10 : "Substantiate what? That to be born equates with being created? Common sense "substantiates" what I'm saying. "
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Hi dadof10

Substanciate this statement ! You constantly keep saying this, now substantiate it !

You failed grade school, and I am assuming that within your grade school education, you now are drawing from your so called common sense. Life does not work this way !

Jesus Christ was born, not created.

The Revealed Mystery, where Christ is the head of the body of Christ is a creation. Having neither father nor mother. Adam was created, the woman was made. The first man was created in the image of God, male and female. The Last Adam was also created in the image of God - male and female. Christ the male, the head of the body of Christ, the female. The two are one, in the image of God.

OK. Let me try this another way. MM, Does being born assume a beginning? Did Jesus have a beginning?

 

[Drew]

Thats funny !

I never have denied the divine nature of Jesus Christ ! In case one forgets, he is the only begotten Son of God, you know !

I thought this thread was about - make a case for the trinity. And not about making a case for the divinity of Jesus Christ !

Yes, but I will remind the readers of the unusual sense you ascribe to the concept of divinity:

To be divine or have divinity, means that one has authority.

Well, if you use that definition then, yes, you are not denying Jesus' divinity.

But the real issue here is whether Jesus is in some sense "God", not whether he has "authority".

And I have made a number of arguments, grounded in the Old Testament, that Jesus' life constitutes the very return of YHWH to Zion. These arguments directly challenge this statement of yours:

Jesus is not YAHWAH (YHWH) in the OT

Well? If Jesus is not the embodiment of YHWH, then my arguments must be mistaken. So please engage my arguments and locate the error.

And, regardless of you define the word "divinity", you deny the essential "God-ness" of Jesus with statements like this one:

The NT writings and all the copies, and all the translations, have introduced certain comments / wording changes etc, that would imply two things. 1. the lie that Jesus is God ,

I will continue to point out that you are not engaging detailed arguments that show that, yes, Jesus is the very embodiment of the promised return of God to His people.

I suggest that you engage the arguments. For example, I would be very interested to know how you see Isaiah 52 as not being about how Jesus is the means by which God returns to His people.

And while you're at it, I suggest you need to engage the Daniel 7 and Psalm 110 arguments as well.

 

[dadof10]

Quote dadof10 : "Epistle means letter, as I said in an earlier post. 2Cor. 3:2-3 is metaphorical because a person cannot be a "letter of recommendation" or "a letter of Christ". "
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Hi dad

Who is telling you this stuff ? II Corinth. 3:3 is not a metaphor.

When Paul spoke to the Corinthians, there was no NT to read. The epsitle of Christ is written in our hearts, spiritually, but also liteally. Not on stone, nor on paper with ink. But on our hearts. There is no metaphor here ! Those who have Christ in them, have the epistle of Christ. This is why we cry out Abba, Father. Because we are sons of God, born from above, with the seed of Christ in us, the promise seed. Galatians 3:16.

No one can prove something to someone else if their mind is totally closed. You want me to prove that the NT is corrupted, of which I can show you, but to prove it too you would require your ability and willingness, to reason it out as well.

It is obviously a metaphor.

"Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on your hearts, to be known and read by all men; 3 and you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. (2Corinthians (RSV) 3)

People can only be "letters" metaphorically. Do you really think we can be LITERAL "letters"? Do you think this is what Paul was getting at?

 

[francisdesales]

Hi dad

Who is telling you this stuff ? II Corinth. 3:3 is not a metaphor.

When Paul spoke to the Corinthians, there was no NT to read. The epsitle of Christ is written in our hearts, spiritually, but also liteally. Not on stone, nor on paper with ink. But on our hearts. There is no metaphor here ! Those who have Christ in them, have the epistle of Christ. This is why we cry out Abba, Father. Because we are sons of God, born from above, with the seed of Christ in us, the promise seed. Galatians 3:16.

No one can prove something to someone else if their mind is totally closed. You want me to prove that the NT is corrupted, of which I can show you, but to prove it too you would require your ability and willingness, to reason it out as well.

It is obviously a metaphor.

"Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on your hearts, to be known and read by all men; 3 and you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. (2Corinthians (RSV) 3)

People can only be "letters" metaphorically. Do you really think we can be LITERAL "letters"? Do you think this is what Paul was getting at?

Doctor: Nurse, give me those rib-spreaders...
Nurse: Rib-spreaders.

cracking noise...

Doctor: Thanks. Ok, scalpel.
Nurse: Scalpel.
Doctor: Suction.

Indistinct sucking noise...

Doctor: Ok, here it is, yep, on the left ventricle in really tiny print, I can make out writing... Wow, Mysteryman was right, it IS literal...

:biglol

 

[shad]

Shad, you have never once addressed either of these, for some reason, you mysteriously shut up when these are brought up...

I was talking about my thread "My Father is greater than I". No one could refute my clear plain verses from the Bible.
Please don't confuse the subject.

 

[shad]

Hello Shad:

Consider the following:

1. My boss at work is "greater than me" in some relevant sense.

2. This fact - that my boss is greater than me - does not mean that we do not both share the property of being human beings.

So even if there is indeed a sense that Jesus sets God "above" Himself (that is, above Jesus), this does not mean that Jesus does not share the same fundamental nature as God the Father.

Drew,

Let me put it this way; Can you find any verse saying that Jesus is greater than His Father? Anything? If they are equal, Jesus should have something greater than His Father just like His Father is greater than Jesus in so many ways.

 

[Drew]

Let me put it this way; Can you find any verse saying that Jesus is greater than His Father? Anything?

No, I can find no such verse, but that does no damage to the Trinitarian argument.

If they are equal, Jesus should have something greater than His Father just like His Father is greater than Jesus in so many ways.

Why?

As per my analogy, my boss is "greater than me" in respect to authority. I do not need to be "greater than him" in some other respect in order to claim that we are both human beings.

I do not see how Jesus' setting Himself "under" the Father constitutes a denial of His own essential God-ness.

In a traditional marriage (for good or for bad), the woman is "under the authority" of the man. Does that mean she is not a human being, just like the man?

 

[Mysteryman]

Let me put it this way; Can you find any verse saying that Jesus is greater than His Father? Anything?

No, I can find no such verse, but that does no damage to the Trinitarian argument.

If they are equal, Jesus should have something greater than His Father just like His Father is greater than Jesus in so many ways.

Why?

As per my analogy, my boss is "greater than me" in respect to authority. I do not need to be "greater than him" in some other respect in order to claim that we are both human beings.

I do not see how Jesus' setting Himself "under" the Father constitutes a denial of His own essential God-ness.

In a traditional marriage (for good or for bad), the woman is "under the authority" of the man. Does that mean she is not a human being, just like the man?

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Hebrews 2:7 - 18

Hebrews 3:2 - 6

 

[Drew]

Hebrews 2:7 - 18

Hebrews 3:2 - 6

Neither of these in any way challenge the position that Jesus possesses the attribute of "God-ness" (to use my own term here).

You are (1) not making arguments as to how these texts challenge my position and (2) you seem to feel entirely un-obligated to respond to detailed arguments that I have provide that argue that Jesus is indeed the embodiment of Israel's God.

Do you feel that you have some kind of exemption from dealing with arguments that challenge your position?

 

[Mysteryman]

Let me put it this way; Can you find any verse saying that Jesus is greater than His Father? Anything?

No, I can find no such verse, but that does no damage to the Trinitarian argument.

If they are equal, Jesus should have something greater than His Father just like His Father is greater than Jesus in so many ways.

Why?

As per my analogy, my boss is "greater than me" in respect to authority. I do not need to be "greater than him" in some other respect in order to claim that we are both human beings.

I do not see how Jesus' setting Himself "under" the Father constitutes a denial of His own essential God-ness.

In a traditional marriage (for good or for bad), the woman is "under the authority" of the man. Does that mean she is not a human being, just like the man?

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Hebrews 5:1 - 14

 

[Drew]

Hebrews 5:1 - 14

Please make your own arguments about the texts you post. Then, at least, I will know how you see such texts as supporting your position.

When you simply post references, I have no visibility into the point you are trying to make.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hebrews 5:1 - 14

Please make your own arguments about the texts you post. Then, at least, I will know how you see such texts as supporting your position.

When you simply post references, I have no visibility into the point you are trying to make.

-------------------------

Drew

How do you read Hebrews 2:12 and 13

 

[Mysteryman]

Hebrews 5:1 - 14

Please make your own arguments about the texts you post. Then, at least, I will know how you see such texts as supporting your position.

When you simply post references, I have no visibility into the point you are trying to make.

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Drew

How do you read Hebrews 5:10 ?

 

[Sinthesis]

Hebrews 5:1 - 14

Please make your own arguments about the texts you post. Then, at least, I will know how you see such texts as supporting your position.

When you simply post references, I have no visibility into the point you are trying to make.

Yeah, some of us need help with the scriptures listed because we don't know which are the corrupted parts. ;)

 

[Mysteryman]

Hebrews 5:1 - 14

Please make your own arguments about the texts you post. Then, at least, I will know how you see such texts as supporting your position.

When you simply post references, I have no visibility into the point you are trying to make.

Yeah, some of us need help with the scriptures listed because we don't know which are the corrupted parts. ;)

-----------------------------------

You are correct -

 

[francisdesales]

Shad, you have never once addressed either of these, for some reason, you mysteriously shut up when these are brought up...

I was talking about my thread "My Father is greater than I". No one could refute my clear plain verses from the Bible.
Please don't confuse the subject.

It was answered by Drew, myself, Dadof10, and several other people, Shad. The vast majority of your verses do not speak of "the Father is greater than the Son", and the one that does is readily explained by considering the Divine Economy and its order, which has little to do with the Essence or "God-ness" of the Son, what is known properly as "Theology".

The doctrine of the Trinity refers to the study of "Theology" (Who God is), not "Divine Economy" (How God works in the universe)...

Thus, your confusion.

 

[shad]

No, I can find no such verse, but that does no damage to the Trinitarian argument.

Yes, it does since you guys are claiming that they are equal.

As per my analogy, my boss is "greater than me" in respect to authority. I do not need to be "greater than him" in some other respect in order to claim that we are both human beings.

You are comparing apples and oranges. God is greater than ANYONE INCLUDING JESUS.I

do not see how Jesus' setting Himself "under" the Father constitutes a denial of His own essential God-ness.

I see Jesus' position clearly. Jesus is second in charge. God is in charge.

In a traditional marriage (for good or for bad), the woman is "under the authority" of the man. Does that mean she is not a human being, just like the man?

We are talking about their positions whether they are equal or not.

 

[francisdesales]

I see Jesus' position clearly. Jesus is second in charge. God is in charge.

Jesus IS God. We worship the Father JUST AS the Son, remember? When worshiping, the Father and the Son are equally God.

Their equality is found within their Essence, their Divinity, not the Mission of the Father vis a vis the Son.

Regards