A case for the Trinity

[francisdesales]

how could jesus only being an angel say that for if you have seen me you have seen the father.

Because Jesus is Father's representative and doing the will of His Father. Jesus does nothing by His own. Jesus is His Father's right hand Son.

So you pray to angels, JUST AS THE FATHER, do you, Shad?

 

[Drew]

As I have repeatedly pointed out, the telling thing here is that those who would deny that Jesus is God in "essence" have not addressed any of the detailed Biblical arguments that I suggest clearly show that Jesus has to be understood as meeting the Old Testament picture of God.

I suggest that the reason these arguments are being ignored is that the arguments are sound, and those who are denying that "Jesus is God" know that they cannot deal with those arguments.

So they get ignored. Same old, same old.

Here is yet another such argument: The Old Testament story is clear: the temple is the place where God's presence is actually manifested. Fine. Now we have Jesus saying this about Himself:

"Have you not even read this Scripture:
'(THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;

What is Jesus saying? He is saying that He - Jesus - is the new temple!

And what is the temple, if the Old Testament is taken seriously? It is the place where God's presence dwells.

Clearly, Jesus is making the shocking and seemingly blasphemous claim that He (Jesus) is the place where "the presence of God" dwells.

Am I, Drew, makng this up? No. What happens next?

And they were seeking to seize Him,....

Clearly, Jesus' audience knew exactly what He meant.

 

[shad]

how could jesus only being an angel say that for if you have seen me you have seen the father.

Because Jesus is Father's representative and doing the will of His Father. Jesus does nothing by His own. Jesus is His Father's right hand Son.

So you pray to angels, JUST AS THE FATHER, do you, Shad?

We (my family) pray to God the Father in Jesus' name but I dont think anything is wrong with asking Jesus like Stephen did.

I am talking about God the Father being greater than Jesus, just like Jesus says. So please don't try to distract from my point or try to put your words in my mouth.

 

[shad]

As I have repeatedly pointed out, the telling thing here is that those who would deny that Jesus is God in "essence" have not addressed any of the detailed Biblical arguments that I suggest clearly show that Jesus has to be understood as meeting the Old Testament picture of God.

I suggest that the reason these arguments are being ignored is that the arguments are sound, and those who are denying that "Jesus is God" know that they cannot deal with those arguments.

So they get ignored. Same old, same old.

Here is yet another such argument: The Old Testament story is clear: the temple is the place where God's presence is actually manifested. Fine. Now we have Jesus saying this about Himself:

"Have you not even read this Scripture:
'(THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;

What is Jesus saying? He is saying that He - Jesus - is the new temple!

And what is the temple, if the Old Testament is taken seriously? It is the place where God's presence dwells.

Clearly, Jesus is making the shocking and seemingly blasphemous claim that He (Jesus) is the place where "the presence of God" dwells.

Am I, Drew, makng this up? No. What happens next?

And they were seeking to seize Him,....

Clearly, Jesus' audience knew exactly what He meant.

So what is your question for me, Drew?

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Drew : "I suggest that the reason these arguments are being ignored is that the arguments are sound, and those who are denying that "Jesus is God" know that they cannot deal with those arguments.

So they get ignored. Same old, same old."
---------------------------------------------------------

:rolling I can not tell you how many times you have ignored what myself and others have tried to explain to you. :rolling

You flatter yourself with pride. :biglol

 

[Sinthesis]

Hi

There is no such phrase - "God the Son" in the scriptures !

For all you know it was included in the 15% you now find corrupted.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi

There is no such phrase - "God the Son" in the scriptures !

For all you know it was included in the 15% you now find corrupted.

That means that you would be able to read it , and you don't , and can't :biglol

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today , and tomorrow. Which simply means, that he is the Son of God yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

 

[francisdesales]

We (my family) pray to God the Father in Jesus' name but I dont think anything is wrong with asking Jesus like Stephen did.

I am talking about God the Father being greater than Jesus, just like Jesus says. So please don't try to distract from my point or try to put your words in my mouth.

Shad,

You yourself told me you honor Jesus with your whole mind and heart. Isn't that something given to God ALONE? Haven't I said this about the Shema enough??? We are to honor the Son JUST AS the Father.

So which is it, Shad? Which part of Scriptures are you ignoring? The Shema or John 5?

Jesus is God. Equal to the Father in Essence. That's the only way out of this paradox.

 

[shad]

Shad,

You yourself told me you honor Jesus with your whole mind and heart. Isn't that something given to God ALONE?

And God tells Jesus' followers to listen to Jesus.

So which is it, Shad? Which part of Scriptures are you ignoring? The Shema or John 5?

What is shema?

Jesus is God. Equal to the Father in Essence. That's the only way out of this paradox.

Jesus is not equal to His Father. Just as Jesus says. You are adding your own idea.

 

[Sinthesis]

Hi

There is no such phrase - "God the Son" in the scriptures !

For all you know it was included in the 15% you now find corrupted.

That means that you would be able to read it , and you don't , and can't :biglol

Yet if it was corrupted, as you believe the Bible to be 15% corrupt, then you might read what was originally written as "God the Son" as something else. :biglaugh

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today , and tomorrow. Which simply means, that he is the Son of God yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Even the Pharisees would have understood Hbr 13:8 better than you. :verysad

• Jhn 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
  Jhn 8:59 - Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[seekandlisten]

Galatians 6:1 - If a man is overtaken in a fault, those who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of meekness.

Meek - Showing patience and humility; gentle.

It's funny how so often this advice is overlooked by those so caught up in presenting the 'truth'.

cheers

 

[jasoncran]

meek is the greek word used for the taming a horse, not what you say.it means strenght under control. humility is part of it, but to deny the truth or nor defend it isnt in the definition.

jesus was meek but that temple cleansing thing then hardly fits your idea.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi

There is no such phrase - "God the Son" in the scriptures ![/quote]
For all you know it was included in the 15% you now find corrupted. [/quote]

That means that you would be able to read it , and you don't , and can't :biglol [/quote]
Yet if it was corrupted, as you believe the Bible to be 15% corrupt, then you might read what was originally written as "God the Son" as something else. :biglaugh

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today , and tomorrow. Which simply means, that he is the Son of God yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Even the Pharisees would have understood Hbr 13:8 better than you. :verysad

• Jhn 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
  Jhn 8:59 - Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

[/quote]

------------------------------------------------------------------

There is nothing like context in order to see the whole picutre !

John 8:50 - And I seek not mine own glory : there is one that seeketh and judgeth

John 8:51 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death

John 8:52 - Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets ; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste death

What they didn't realize, is that Jesus was speaking spiritually and not literally.

John 8:53 - Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead ? and the prophets are dead : whom makest thou thyself ?

John 8:54 - Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing : it is my Father that honoureth me ; of whom ye say, that he is your God

John 8:55 - Yet ye have not known him ; but I know him : and If I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you : but I know him, and keep his saying Jesus Christ is telling them, that he knows the Father, who is God. Even Jesus here says, that he keeps his Father's sayings. Not his own sayings, but his Father's sayings, who is God !

These Jews who claimed to know God, but didn't, also didn't know who Jesus Christ the Son of God was. This is why they misunderstood him and wanted to stone him.

We have people who call themselves christians, who claim to know God, and do not ! Focus on verse 50 ! This is a good starting point.

 

[dadof10]

There is nothing like context in order to see the whole picutre !

John 8:50 - And I seek not mine own glory : there is one that seeketh and judgeth

John 8:51 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death

John 8:52 - Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets ; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste death

What they didn't realize, is that Jesus was speaking spiritually and not literally.

John 8:53 - Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead ? and the prophets are dead : whom makest thou thyself ?

John 8:54 - Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing : it is my Father that honoureth me ; of whom ye say, that he is your God

John 8:55 - Yet ye have not known him ; but I know him : and If I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you : but I know him, and keep his saying Jesus Christ is telling them, that he knows the Father, who is God. Even Jesus here says, that he keeps his Father's sayings. Not his own sayings, but his Father's sayings, who is God !

These Jews who claimed to know God, but didn't, also didn't know who Jesus Christ the Son of God was. This is why they misunderstood him and wanted to stone him.

We have people who call themselves christians, who claim to know God, and do not ! Focus on verse 50 ! This is a good starting point.

The Jews "misunderstood" Him in what way? Did they only THINK He was claiming equality with God? Is that why they attempted to stone Him, over a misunderstanding?

 

[veteran]

I am talking about God the Father being greater than Jesus, just like Jesus says. So please don't try to distract from my point or try to put your words in my mouth.

But that's still not a Biblical idea about our Lord Jesus's nature.


When The Word (Christ) was made flesh, God took on the nature of man so as to suffer and die on the cross to be the perfect sacrifice for sin, for one and all time. That never meant He stopped being God by doing that. Instead, it confirms His Divine Nature as God.

Phil 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

What human man can claim to be in the form of God, or even equal with God? Only Christ Jesus can, otherwise believing on His Blood shed on the cross for us would mean nothing. It required God coming in the form of flesh man to do that.

7 But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Who among us can say we humbled ourselves by being born as flesh man? Which one of you gods had to humble yourself by taking on the flesh nature?

In essence, Paul is saying God humbled Himself, His Divine Nature as God, in order to be born through flesh woman as we are so as to offer Himself as The Sacrifice for sin.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(KJV)

It's for that reason our Lord Jesus is called "the only begotten Son of God."


I say it again. The devil is who wants us to think we can become our own Christ, or to treat our Lord Jesus Christ as if He were a flesh man only. If the devil can get you to accept that Jesus was only flesh man, then he can get you to thinking you can be like Jesus on your own, becoming your own god.

So there is a very clear dividing line about the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ as God. To believe is to admit the Power of Christ's Sacrifice. To deny is to believe the devil instead. No gray areas on that.

 

[shad]

I am talking about God the Father being greater than Jesus, just like Jesus says.

But that's still not a Biblical idea about our Lord Jesus's nature.

So are you saying that Jesus and His apostles did not know who Jesus was and is?

 

[Mysteryman]

There is nothing like context in order to see the whole picutre !

John 8:50 - And I seek not mine own glory : there is one that seeketh and judgeth

John 8:51 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death

John 8:52 - Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets ; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste death

What they didn't realize, is that Jesus was speaking spiritually and not literally.

John 8:53 - Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead ? and the prophets are dead : whom makest thou thyself ?

John 8:54 - Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing : it is my Father that honoureth me ; of whom ye say, that he is your God

John 8:55 - Yet ye have not known him ; but I know him : and If I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you : but I know him, and keep his saying Jesus Christ is telling them, that he knows the Father, who is God. Even Jesus here says, that he keeps his Father's sayings. Not his own sayings, but his Father's sayings, who is God !

These Jews who claimed to know God, but didn't, also didn't know who Jesus Christ the Son of God was. This is why they misunderstood him and wanted to stone him.

We have people who call themselves christians, who claim to know God, and do not ! Focus on verse 50 ! This is a good starting point.

The Jews "misunderstood" Him in what way? Did they only THINK He was claiming equality with God? Is that why they attempted to stone Him, over a misunderstanding?

Life is funny - :biglaugh

Focus on verse 50 as a starting point !

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Veteran : "When The Word (Christ) was made flesh, God took on the nature of man so as to suffer and die on the cross to be the perfect sacrifice for sin, for one and all time."
--------------------------

Hi Veteran:

Wrong ! God sent His Son to die, and be the sacrificial lamb. Just like Isaac in the OT !

 

[Drew]

So what is your question for me, Drew?

I suppose my question is this:

Why have you and MM ignored my series of detailed arguments that make the case that Jesus fulfills Old Testament "images" or models that describe God.

1. Jesus' journey to Jerusalem clearly maps to the Old Testament theme of the return of YHWH to His people. This makes Jesus the embodiment of Israel's God. Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

2. Jesus quoting from Daniel 7 before Caiaphus places Jesus in the "son of man" role from that famous Old Testament chapter. And what happens to that son of man figure? He gets a throne right next to God - a clear statement that Jesus is a part of a "God-head". Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

3. Jesus quoting from Psalm 110 before Caiaphus places Jesus sitting at the right hand of God - another clear indication that Jesus is a part of a "God-head". Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

4. Jesus' declaration that He is the new temple is a clear claim that Jesus is the "place" where the presence of God can be found. Again, the Old Testament is clear about this - the temple is where the presence of God abides. Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

You and MM have simply ignored these arguments. And I suggest that the reason is that you are unable to refute them. To the person who actually knows the Old Testament story, it is very clear that Jesus embodies the promised return of, yes, God (YHWH) to His people.

That makes Jesus "God" - and you cannot have this, so you choose to ignore the arguments.

 

[francisdesales]

Why have you and MM ignored my series of detailed arguments that make the case that Jesus fulfills Old Testament "images" or models that describe God.

1. Jesus' journey to Jerusalem clearly maps to the Old Testament theme of the return of YHWH to His people. This makes Jesus the embodiment of Israel's God. Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

2. Jesus quoting from Daniel 7 before Caiaphus places Jesus in the "son of man" role from that famous Old Testament chapter. And what happens to that son of man figure? He gets a throne right next to God - a clear statement that Jesus is a part of a "God-head". Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

3. Jesus quoting from Psalm 110 before Caiaphus places Jesus sitting at the right hand of God - another clear indication that Jesus is a part of a "God-head". Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

4. Jesus' declaration that He is the new temple is a clear claim that Jesus is the "place" where the presence of God can be found. Again, the Old Testament is clear about this - the temple is where the presence of God abides. Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

You and MM have simply ignored these arguments. And I suggest that the reason is that you are unable to refute them. To the person who actually knows the Old Testament story, it is very clear that Jesus embodies the promised return of, yes, God (YHWH) to His people.

That makes Jesus "God" - and you cannot have this, so you choose to ignore the arguments.

Drew,

Unfortunately, these two characters are not interested in being open to our explanations, even when simplified. Shad associates Trinitarians with murdering persecutors, so they cannot possibly be right, no matter what the Bible says. And MM? He has his own uncorrupted bible in his head, so how can you argue with that?

Regards