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A child of the devil....

Drew,

I am not in complete disagreement with you. I think we agree on the element of obedience...since we are His workmanship...and repentance since John tells us in His first epistle that those who sin...or are lawless...do not have God's love in them.

I guess I am thinking that you seem to think that these Truths prove, 'once saved always saved' is untrue. I would say that these Truths are the support that 'once saved always saved' is true for the elect. The elect are those who bear fruit, who are the seed of His SEED, and who do overcome until harvest...who produce 30, 60, etc. I do understand the dangerous side of this teaching as it is taught to day, but I believe that the deceiver would rob, steal, and destroy anything. If people believe that they are able to die in a state of unrepentance, and never once having shared the love of God to others, and still be saved...it's a lie. Faith is an action.

The Truth that the elect will overcome, that there will be some who have eternal life, is proof that once they were saved they were always saved...kept by Him....because they DO remain repentant, and DO desire to be obedient to His Law of Truth. Even if these people are in rebellion for a season, they are miserable, and will always come back. This is really a time of teaching and chastening for the believer. 'OSAS' is not really a license to sin idea if one views it in light of Scripture. In fact, it is only supported if those Truths you mention are earmarks. God chose (planted) them, they received (had proper soil prepared by Him) Him, He watered, pruned, nurtured, etc. (kept them), they grew (bore fruit, obeyed, practiced good works), And at harvest they were identified as the Wheat, and not the Tares. They were the sheep not the goats.

I guess I believe that because of this process, God's process, they will not fall away if they are truly elect. This is why God says we know them by their fruits...His love is in them, and they are of the Seed, and the Holy Spirit has caused them to produce. They are in Covenant, and God will not break His promise. I am not sure what you believe about election. I know we disagree on many points or at least I think we do, but I can't keep them all clear. I just think that those things you mentioned do not disprove OSAS for the elect.

I just want to mention, as a further explanation, that I believe Jesus is the only way, and that the maturity of the believer to at least bear one piece of fruit is the key to identifying ourselves as Christ's. I believe that this is more than just tradition, or correct doctrine, or an abundance of good works, or even a perfectly obedient walk (Not that I believe it's possible, obviously.)...God's mercy is far reaching, and it's more of a matter of the heart. It is a desire to walk in faith, in holy fear, and as a new Creation...because as believers that's who we are in Him.

A taste of God alone won't do it, He must penetrate the heart with the witness of His Spirit, and the believer must (choose...in the sense that it's a designed medium by which God works.) receive Him as one with proper soil. Seemingly good acts alone won't do it either, because these acts are not done for Christ in their root, and the good is defined by a worldly standard...they are not obedient by nature. The elect child must have something more...the Holy Spirit and the Truth coupled with a heart and will that are regenerate, and the Love of God in them.

The Lord bless you.
 
lovely said:
I guess I am thinking that you seem to think that these Truths prove, 'once saved always saved' is untrue. I would say that these Truths are the support that 'once saved always saved' is true for the elect. The elect are those who bear fruit, who are the seed of His SEED, and who do overcome until harvest...who produce 30, 60, etc. I do understand the dangerous side of this teaching as it is taught to day, but I believe that the deceiver would rob, steal, and destroy anything. If people believe that they are able to die in a state of unrepentance, and never once having shared the love of God to others, and still be saved...it's a lie. Faith is an action.

The Truth that the elect will overcome, that there will be some who have eternal life, is proof that once they were saved they were always saved...kept by Him....because they DO remain repentant, and DO desire to be obedient to His Law of Truth. Even if these people are in rebellion for a season, they are miserable, and will always come back. This is really a time of teaching and chastening for the believer. 'OSAS' is not really a license to sin idea if one views it in light of Scripture. In fact, it is only supported if those Truths you mention are earmarks. God chose (planted) them, they received (had proper soil prepared by Him) Him, He watered, pruned, nurtured, etc. (kept them), they grew (bore fruit, obeyed, practiced good works), And at harvest they were identified as the Wheat, and not the Tares. They were the sheep not the goats.
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Tina
An excellent post...I agree with all of it, but these two paragraphs are really, really good....I have said as much, but sound no ware near as good as the way you put it....I need to learn to write...
 
Texasgirl said:
It's an accurate representation of Catholic doctrine regarding salvation.
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Exactly. I'm glad you said it.

Thank God it's not what God teaches or else none of us would get into heaven.




Of course as Christians were are going to fall and sin, everyday in fact. We need to confess our sins (which means to AGREE with God that we have done wrong) and refrain from doing it again. Many times we find ourselves doing much of the same thing over and over again even though we profess that we won't ever again...
But He forgives us everytime we ask. He also knows if we have true intentions of repenting (turning away from). But haven't we all said I'll never do that again and sometimes find ourselves doing that same exact thing again? Kind of like when an drunk claims they'll never drink again but they say this when they are going through the hangover.

We aren't perfect and yes, we should do our best not to offend God by sinning. But thank God He does forgive and loves us anyway.
 
ThreeInOne said:
Exactly. I'm glad you said it.

Thank God it's not what God teaches or else none of us would get into heaven.
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Here is what Texasgirl agreed was the Catholic doctrine regarding salvation

Texasgirl said:
I personally don't believe we can 'procur' or earn our salvation by either faith or works. I believe we are saved by grace, a gift freely offered by God through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. If we accept the grace that God has bestowed, the evidence in our life will be faith and works.
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Are you sure that this is not what the Scriptures teach? Is it possible that there is some confusion here. What I have reposted represents what Texasgirl asserts is an accurate representation of Catholic doctrine regarding salvation.
 
A question for you Drew...

Can one accept the gift of Grace without Faith in the One offering the gift? Isn't Faith the "means" by which Grace is offered?

The verse always quoted is clear... "... through faith...".
 
vic C. said:
A question for you Drew...

Can one accept the gift of Grace without Faith in the One offering the gift? Isn't Faith the "means" by which Grace is offered?

The verse always quoted is clear... "... through faith...".
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No to the 1st question
Yes to the 2nd question

I think we see things the same way on this issue.
 
You know...As I was writing this thread, I must confess that I was deeply troubled by it....I thought of my oldest daughter who is an absolute blessing to me and a really good kid. (she is 21) and I thought of three of my sisters who don't know Jesus and really broke my heart...I realized how long my list could get, so I stopped thinking about it....because it was really troubling me.....I have had my Daughter in Christian schools her whole life and is around Christianity everyday, but she does not believe....Even though she made a confession of faith back when she was in 4th grade, the truth of the matter is, she never developed a relationship with the savior...She has no interest in church, or the things of God, so I humbly ask you to keep her in your prayers...
I believe that God will be faithful in saving her and wants to save her, but ultimately it is her choice...I do feel better now after writing this....
javier
 
ThreeInOne said:
Exactly. I'm glad you said it.

Thank God it's not what God teaches or else none of us would get into heaven.




Of course as Christians were are going to fall and sin, everyday in fact. We need to confess our sins (which means to AGREE with God that we have done wrong) and refrain from doing it again. Many times we find ourselves doing much of the same thing over and over again even though we profess that we won't ever again...
But He forgives us everytime we ask. He also knows if we have true intentions of repenting (turning away from). But haven't we all said I'll never do that again and sometimes find ourselves doing that same exact thing again? Kind of like when an drunk claims they'll never drink again but they say this when they are going through the hangover.

We aren't perfect and yes, we should do our best not to offend God by sinning. But thank God He does forgive and loves us anyway.
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What on earth are you talking about? What I said was an accurate representation of Catholic doctrine regarding salvation was:

I personally don't believe we can 'procur' or earn our salvation by either faith or works. I believe we are saved by grace, a gift freely offered by God through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. If we accept the grace that God has bestowed, the evidence in our life will be faith and works.

I have no idea how you went from that, to where you went. And just what part of my statement regarding salvation do you disagree with?
 
jgredline said:
You know...As I was writing this thread, I must confess that I was deeply troubled by it....I thought of my oldest daughter who is an absolute blessing to me and a really good kid. (she is 21) and I thought of three of my sisters who don't know Jesus and really broke my heart...I realized how long my list could get, so I stopped thinking about it....because it was really troubling me.....I have had my Daughter in Christian schools her whole life and is around Christianity everyday, but she does not believe....Even though she made a confession of faith back when she was in 4th grade, the truth of the matter is, she never developed a relationship with the savior...She has no interest in church, or the things of God, so I humbly ask you to keep her in your prayers...
I believe that God will be faithful in saving her and wants to save her, but ultimately it is her choice...I do feel better now after writing this....
javier
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Javier, you know something. I've met alot of people who were brought up in the knowledge of the Lord but do not believe. It's as though it's been pounded in them since they were kids (no pun intended), that they really know nothing else. But I see that people who run wild and crazy that come to the Lord and are totaly on fire for Him. Maybe because they got to see at first hand the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives? The truth me known in my post here Javier, I'm also speaking for myself as well, I've seen the power of the Holy Spirit clean a filthy man up in one night. While those in the Church really never expierence nothing like what we have, who have lived for the world for so long..
 
Drew said:
Are you sure that this is not what the Scriptures teach? Is it possible that there is some confusion here. What I have reposted represents what Texasgirl asserts is an accurate representation of Catholic doctrine regarding salvation.
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Sorry, didn't see this before I replied as well. But I'm glad you were confused too, because I was getting worried about myself. :lol:
 
Atonement said:
Javier, you know something. I've met alot of people who were brought up in the knowledge of the Lord but do not believe. It's as though it's been pounded in them since they were kids (no pun intended), that they really know nothing else. But I see that people who run wild and crazy that come to the Lord and are totaly on fire for Him. Maybe because they got to see at first hand the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives? The truth me known in my post here Javier, I'm also speaking for myself as well, I've seen the power of the Holy Spirit clean a filthy man up in one night. While those in the Church really never expierence nothing like what we have, who have lived for the world for so long..
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Thanks Keith..I appreciate the words of encouragement.. :)
 
jgredline said:
Thanks Keith..I appreciate the words of encouragement.. :)
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Also Javier, God's word never comes back void! So whatever seeds were planted in her when she was younger or even now, Just keep on watering them ,and also prayer is the best thing you can do for her, I know that's what worked for me. My sister dedicated five years that she had been saved at the time, to praying for us, her family. And after her and her roommate at the time decided to pray and fast for me and my husband for about two weeks. Well let me tell you something, God did a miraculous thing in our lives, We probably would have been divorced already, but instead we are going on our 16 year anniversary Nov. this year. So stay strong Javier, I will definitely keep her in my prayers! :wink:
 
jgredline said:
Thanks Keith..I appreciate the words of encouragement.. :)
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Javier, to be honest is was not suppose to be words of encouragement. Infact I think they were words of sorrow. I want to bring my daughter who is six years old up in the Lord also, but I'm afraid as she gets older, she will be like so many others I know and refuse Him, because she never had an experience like others have.. And for some, they need that reassurance.. I know I did.. Without that waking up being a totaly new man in one night, turning from Satanism to serving the Lord on Fire.. I would have doubts to this day.
 
Atonement said:
But I see that people who run wild and crazy that come to the Lord and are totaly on fire for Him. I've seen the power of the Holy Spirit clean a filthy man up in one night. While those in the Church really never expierence nothing like what we have, who have lived for the world for so long..
Click to expand...

I have seen this too and this brought me great encouragement...Thank God the HS was writing through you what I wanted and needed to hear...
 
sisterchristian said:
Also Javier, God's word never comes back void! So whatever seeds were planted in her when she was younger or even now, Just keep on watering them ,and also prayer is the best thing you can do for her, I know that's what worked for me. My sister dedicated five years that she had been saved at the time, to praying for us, her family. And after her and her roommate at the time decided to pray and fast for me and my husband for about two weeks. Well let me tell you something, God did a miraculous thing in our lives, We probably would have been divorced already, but instead we are going on our 16 year anniversary Nov. this year. So stay strong Javier, I will definitely keep her in my prayers! :wink:
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Thank you so very much :)
 
Atonement wrote:

Without that waking up being a totaly new man in one night, turning from Satanism to serving the Lord on Fire . . .
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Interesting expression . . . waking up a totally new man. This has happened to me twice and it is remarkable. The difference 'inside' is like the difference between night and day - the difference is total. I woke up a totally new man - in the first instance it was for a day. In the second instance it was for three/four months. Sorrow of sorrows, the wine eventually leaked out of a tear in the wineskin. In looking back over those periods - they constitute my history with the Lord - the remainder is time spent in the wilderness or in exile. From one of my poems:

Oh for the Father's embrace,
Of love that drives out fear,
Of peace beyond understanding,
and being 'kept' he holds dear.

Atonement, there is a promise somewhere in scripture that our children will walk on the same ground . . .
 
Atonement:
I would love to hear your testimony how you went from Satanism to becoming a Christian! That is AWESOME!
Is there somewhere on these boards that you already gave your testimony that you can send me a link to?
I've been wanting to ask you about this for weeks now.
Thanks.
 
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