A Christian antichrist or a Jewish False Messiah?

[Vic C.]

Too late. I found it and edited my post before you posted that. 8-)

Gen 10:22 The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram.

 

[Vic C.]

Japheth's seed mixed with Shem's and thus they became nations/gentiles in different lands. May be prophetic.

Most definitely agree. 8-)

 

[Georges]

He will be a politician not religious,

And according to Daniel he will comes from the part of the world the Muslims own, but it says he will not regard the God of his fathers, this dose not say Jehovah.

Darrell, will you please cite the verse where you base that statement on....Thanks.


As to the False Messiah not being religious....why then is he called a False Messiah? He isn't actually called antichrist in the Bible...that is a name ascribed to him by theologians.
Also, for not being religious...he has a religious prophet proclaiming him to be the Messiah. It is understood in Judaism that Messiah will rule from Jerusalem and officiate temple worship. The False Messiah will try and fool the people by having his false elijah proclaim himself Messiah in Jerusalem and he will sit in the tribulation temple desecrating it.


Also, for not being religious...he (the false prophet, false elijah) has a religious icon placed upon the hand or forehead of his followers. This is a counterfiet of the mark (seal) on the 144000.

Also, for not being religious....he sit's in a religeous temple and proclaims himself to be God.....that's pretty religious...

All of course in my opinion.

 

[Vic C.]

As to the False Messiah not being religious....why then is he called a False Messiah? He isn't actually called antichrist in the Bible...that is a name ascribed to him by theologians.

Um, does 1 John 2:18 and 1 John 2:22 count?

Also, for not being religious...he has a religious prophet proclaiming him to be the Messiah. It is understood in Judaism that Messiah will rule from Jerusalem and officiate temple worship. The False Messiah will try and fool the people by having his false elijah proclaim himself Messiah in Jerusalem and he will sit in the tribulation temple desecrating it.

:-D

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Jerusalem sits between the Mediterranean and Dead Seas and is over 1,600 feet above sea level.

Also, for not being religious...he (the false prophet, false elijah) has a religious icon placed upon the hand or forehead of his followers. This is a counterfiet of the mark (seal) on the 144000.

See Tefillin <-- link for details.

Also, for not being religious....he sit's in a religeous temple and proclaims himself to be God.....that's pretty religious...

2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[Lewis]

Japheth, means light, bright, or fair. Shem, means brown,dusky, or olive, Ham, means hot, heated, or burnt, or burned. And the earth was overspread from these 3. He will come out of the tribe of Japheth, the tribes of Japheth are my lighter skinned brothers and sisters, called Caucasians. But which I just rather call people. But Noah named his children according to how they looked when they were born.

 

[wavy]

Um, does 1 John 2:18 and 1 John 2:22 count?

Well, the first one would. The second one applies to anyone.

And I completely forgot about teffillin. So in addition to tzitzit, I'll have to get teffilin too. Glad you brought that up. I also tied in that passage with the mark once.

My parents thought I was crazy.

 

[Vic C.]

... And I completely forgot about teffillin. So in addition to tzitzit, I'll have to get teffilin too. Glad you brought that up. I also tied in that passage with the mark once.

My parents thought I was crazy.

When I first found out about the tefillin, the FIRST thing that came to mind was the Mark and... the sealed 144,000. I believe it is a tefillin that seals 144,000. Hey, it's identifiable and the 144,000 will be protected, so it doesn't matter who sees it. They will be "untouchable". :

 

[wavy]

I understand what you are saying, Vic. However, Revelation makes it clear that the Name of the Father (YHWH) is what they are sealed with. It only mentions the forehead, not the hand/arm.

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

It becomes clear what this seal is:

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's Name written in their foreheads.

Yahweh's Name is in the Shema, but this does not seem to tie in with teffilin. The mark does, though. So I don't know, or can't see it right now, as to how the mark is a counterfeit to what the 144,000 are sealed with.

 

[Vic C.]

Gotcha. Just throwing out some ideas floating around in my otherwise empty head. 8-)

 

[Georges]

As to the False Messiah not being religious....why then is he called a False Messiah? He isn't actually called antichrist in the Bible...that is a name ascribed to him by theologians.

Um, does 1 John 2:18 and 1 John 2:22 count?

Also, for not being religious...he has a religious prophet proclaiming him to be the Messiah. It is understood in Judaism that Messiah will rule from Jerusalem and officiate temple worship. The False Messiah will try and fool the people by having his false elijah proclaim himself Messiah in Jerusalem and he will sit in the tribulation temple desecrating it.

:-D

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Jerusalem sits between the Mediterranean and Dead Seas and is over 1,600 feet above sea level.

[quote:4c144]Also, for not being religious...he (the false prophet, false elijah) has a religious icon placed upon the hand or forehead of his followers. This is a counterfiet of the mark (seal) on the 144000.

See Tefillin <-- link for details.

Also, for not being religious....he sit's in a religeous temple and proclaims himself to be God.....that's pretty religious...

2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.[/quote:4c144]

Vic.....In regard to the whole post...that's what I'm talking about....The tefelin et al.....to actually see how the Shin and 666 look very similar makes the reasoning behind the mark on the hand and forehead clear....It's a Jewish thing.....

In regard to the 1st John ref....yes...I had forgotton the reference to one antichrist. I remembered the multiple antichrists and remembered the verse as a spirit of attitude by a group of people...thanks for making me look it up again.

 

[Georges]

I understand what you are saying, Vic. However, Revelation makes it clear that the Name of the Father (YHWH) is what they are sealed with. It only mentions the forehead, not the hand/arm.

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

It becomes clear what this seal is:

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's Name written in their foreheads.

Yahweh's Name is in the Shema, but this does not seem to tie in with teffilin. The mark does, though. So I don't know, or can't see it right now, as to how the mark is a counterfeit to what the 144,000 are sealed with.

On the Tefillin there is a Hebrew letter called the "shin"....If you look under my name you will see what it looks like.

The "shin" looks like a W and is the first letter in God's name of El Shaddai. The S in english looks like the W.

What is neat is that the box that the Jews were on their foreheads have the shin, but also the tefillin that they wrap around their wrists and hands form a "shin" also.

Another interesting thing about the "shin". If you look at a topological map of Jerusalem, you will see that the valley's and hills form a "shin". This goes perfectly with....

Neh 1:9 But [if] ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, [yet] will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.


Having said all of that, on to the mark of the beast. Just like the 144000 will have a "shin" (most likely) as their mark (or seal), the false messiah will have his mark (false shin). It most likely will be made up of three Hebrew letter's named "waw". If you place 3 waw's with their bottom ends close together, and leave the top ends spead apart you have an object that looks very much like a "shin".

The numerical value of a "waw" is 6. Put three of them together waw, waw, waw, and you have 6,6,6.

It should be easy for the AC to convince people to get the "false shin" once they see that the 144000 with the real "shin" are not getting harmed by the tribulation terrors.

Lots more to that but the wife is calling me......

Was any of the "shin" "waw" stuff clear....as I said the "shin" is the letter that is under my call name. If you separate the base for each arm of the "shin" you get 3 "waw"'s, or numerically 666. Remember Revelation is a Hebrew book so the number/letter correspondence is Hebrew not Greek.

 

[Vic C.]

Was any of the "shin" "waw" stuff clear....as I said the "shin" is the letter that is under my call name. If you separate the base for each arm of the "shin" you get 3 "waw"'s, or numerically 666. Remember Revelation is a Hebrew book so the number/letter correspondence is Hebrew not Greek.

Clear as a "bell" George. Thanks. :angel:

 

[Darrell dunn]

When the AC first comes on the scene it will be political not religious it would cause to much reaction from all the deferent religions of the world.

And Dan. says that he will not regard the God of his fathers.
Meaning that he will appear non religious.

Rev.6;2 says he will come in on a white horse (promising peace) and he has a bow(army) but no arrows( he dose not have to use it)

He will probabily resolve the Muslim tension, therefore the world will love him.

Later the false prophet will probably start the worship of him, then he will pick up on it and, get carried away with it,

I don't believe that the Jews ever except him as a messiah, that is why he will set on the temple throne and claim that he is , trying to force it on them.

And as for where he comes from, Dan.8 tells us. at the end of the rulers of that part of the world, V 9 says,(a small horn) which waxed exceeding great, toward the south , and toward the east, AND TOWARD THE PLEASANT LAND.

So the only two directions that are left are south, or east of Israel,
So he has to come out of one of these.

What is east or south of Israel?

 

[Georges]

Darrell...thanks for doing that...I didn't want to misunderstand what you were getting at.

I agree that the False Messiah will be a political figure as well. Why? Because the Jews are expecting the real Messiah to be a Leader/Priest to rule over them during the kingdom period.

And Dan. says that he will not regard the God of his fathers.
Meaning that he will appear non religious.


That may be true, or it can be interpreted as an Israeli descendent, he doesn't respect the Torah (completely, or in part) as an offspring of Israel should. He will appear enough to be torah observant to try and fool the people, but the knowing will be the wiser. These are they who "flee to the mountains" in the future trib period.

After all, he does try and to change Torah Law as seen in...

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


This is a Jewish thing......Times are (Feast day's.....Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot. Once again, the Jews are Messiah to rule during the Millennial kingdom. In the future Temple period as seen in Eze 40-46, some (but not all) of the Feast Days will be observed during the Millennial kingdom period. The attempt of the False Messiah to "change the Times and Law" will be another attempt to fool the people. Also, in Judaism, I believe that the real Messiah will be the only one who can change the Law (have to re-research that one).

 

[wavy]

The "shin" looks like a W and is the first letter in God's name of El Shaddai. The S in english looks like the W.

The problem I have with this, though, is El Shaddai is not a name.

What is neat is that the box that the Jews were on their foreheads have the shin, but also the tefillin that they wrap around their wrists and hands form a "shin" also.

Another interesting thing about the "shin". If you look at a topological map of Jerusalem, you will see that the valley's and hills form a "shin". This goes perfectly with....

Neh 1:9 But [if] ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, [yet] will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.

Yahrushalayhim. That's what I thought that was a reference to.

Was any of the "shin" "waw" stuff clear....as I said the "shin" is the letter that is under my call name. If you separate the base for each arm of the "shin" you get 3 "waw"'s, or numerically 666. Remember Revelation is a Hebrew book so the number/letter correspondence is Hebrew not Greek.

Well, plausible. but 666 could just as easily be the sum of the letters on the Roman pontiff's headpeice. And a number of other things people come up with this number.

 

[Geo]

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains,
on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is,
and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short
space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the
seven, and goeth into perdition. Rev. 17:9-11

There have been Five Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire named Charles
beginning with Charlemagne. Prince Charles will be Charles VIII. He is of the
Hapsburg Line. The last Charles of the Hapsburg line is Charles VII. Prince
Charles will be the 8th. He is of the line where the last Charles was the 7th.

In case anyone wonders where the connection David, Solomon and Charles
comes from, and if I developed that in my mind. No, it's published in 1923.
First Published in 1902 by The Covenant Publishing Co., Ltd., London,
The Illustrious Lineage of the ROYAL HOUSE OF BRITAIN
P.S. The number is in his name too, of course, both in Hebrew
and also in English, what are the odds of that. That's the prince.

 

[Georges]

The "shin" looks like a W and is the first letter in God's name of El Shaddai. The S in english looks like the W.

The problem I have with this, though, is El Shaddai is not a name.

Not quite....it is a name and it is a title....It is one of God's names by it's description. Just like "The Sultan of Swat" is a name given to the baseball Great Babe Ruth. The "Sultan of Swat" is a name of Babe Ruth. It is a descriptive title and name at the same time. Here is a portion of the Jewishencyclopedia.com article on "God"...

In Ex. vi. 2 Yhwh is identified with El-Shaddai, the god of the Patriarchs. What the latter name means is still in doubt (see Nöldeke in "Z. D. M. G." 1886, p. 735; 1888, p. 480). Modern authorities have argued from the statement in Exodus that Yhwh was not known among the Hebrews before Moses, and have therefore insisted that the name at least, if not the god, was of foreign origin. Delitzsch's alleged discovery of the name "Yhwh" on Babylonian tablets has yet to be verified. Moses is held to have identified a Midianite-Kenite deity with the patriarchal El-Shaddai.

who better than the premier reference of Judacia to confirm the above.

What is neat is that the box that the Jews were on their foreheads have the shin, but also the tefillin that they wrap around their wrists and hands form a "shin" also.

Another interesting thing about the "shin". If you look at a topological map of Jerusalem, you will see that the valley's and hills form a "shin". This goes perfectly with....

Neh 1:9 But [if] ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, [yet] will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.

Yahrushalayhim. That's what I thought that was a reference to.

Both......have you looked at the topographical layout yet?.....God could have put the city anywhere....why did he choose an area that had his name stamped on the very ground....coincidence? Nah.....

[quote:3a27b]Was any of the "shin" "waw" stuff clear....as I said the "shin" is the letter that is under my call name. If you separate the base for each arm of the "shin" you get 3 "waw"'s, or numerically 666. Remember Revelation is a Hebrew book so the number/letter correspondence is Hebrew not Greek.

Well, plausible. but 666 could just as easily be the sum of the letters on the Roman pontiff's headpeice. And a number of other things people come up with this number.[/quote:3a27b]

No it can't easily be done.......and make sense, or add up. Plain and simple everything the devil and/or the False Messiah are going to do is a counterfeit of God, so the marks between God's people and False Messiah's people have to be similar. It really is too simple but, people won't give up the simple reality that it's not Christianity that interprets prophecy, but rather it's Judaism.

 

[wavy]

who better than the premier reference of Judacia to confirm the above.

They are refuted with plain scripture, the ultimate authority on everything. Anyone reading Genesis knows that Yahweh's name was known long before Moses. Anyone reading the rest of the Tanach can see that the Name of YHWH is clearly specified as the Father's Name and that it is exalted above all other names and endures forever.

Both......have you looked at the topographical layout yet?.....God could have put the city anywhere....why did he choose an area that had his name stamped on the very ground....coincidence? Nah..

Kabalaa has little interesting coincidences with comparing numbers and letters too. This is speculative. It's not like there's overwhelming evidence to come to this conclusion. His Name is Yahweh. Even if El Shaddai was a name, it still would not take precedence over YHWH.

Plain and simple everything the devil and/or the False Messiah are going to do is a counterfeit of God, so the marks between God's people and False Messiah's people have to be similar.

This is based off the assumption that we know that the original is (in this case, the seal of the 144,000).

I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong or that what you are saying doesn't make some sense, but I'm telling you why it doesn't hold up for me. Not now, at leasts.

 

[Georges]

who better than the premier reference of Judacia to confirm the above.

They are refuted with plain scripture, the ultimate authority on everything. Anyone reading Genesis knows that Yahweh's name was known long before Moses. Anyone reading the rest of the Tanach can see that the Name of YHWH is clearly specified as the Father's Name and that it is exalted above all other names and endures forever.

Both......have you looked at the topographical layout yet?.....God could have put the city anywhere....why did he choose an area that had his name stamped on the very ground....coincidence? Nah..

Kabalaa has little interesting coincidences with comparing numbers and letters too. This is speculative. It's not like there's overwhelming evidence to come to this conclusion. His Name is Yahweh. Even if El Shaddai was a name, it still would not take precedence over YHWH.

[quote:49ca8]Plain and simple everything the devil and/or the False Messiah are going to do is a counterfeit of God, so the marks between God's people and False Messiah's people have to be similar.

This is based off the assumption that we know that the original is (in this case, the seal of the 144,000).

I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong or that what you are saying doesn't make some sense, but I'm telling you why it doesn't hold up for me. Not now, at leasts.[/quote:49ca8]


Of course we are entitled to our own opinions right? :D That's what makes the world go round......

God has many names and titles.....Yes, he has a personal name but that doesn't negate the other's he is known by....

In my opinion, the Shin/False Shin far out weigh the other possibilities in it's simplicity alone. It's the people of Israel that the False Messiah is trying to convince, he isn't trying to convice Christianity that he is the Messiah. So it's really a stretch to suggest that a Christian pope or leader (especially in light of Christian antesemitism) would use a "bar code etc" mark to convince Jews that he is the Messiah.

 

[Jake99]

GW Bush is the politician/ anti christ / false messiah and his ways are waste and war along with chaos, corruption and failure. Jesus was a carpenter and a miracle worker who brought peace, prosperity and long life, they are opposites. History repeats itself and the messiah carries a bow and arrows but does not attempt to use the weapon as designed but rather as a prop. Christ has a chariot of fire, a huge black mule, a 360 degree suit of armor and a sworded tongue that never fails to win a war or solve a problem. Jesus failed by intention but the messiah prevailed at Y2K under the same circumstances. Maybe you want to wait 40 years to hear and write the story like the last time but I don't recommend it. Seek out the man who speaks in a language you have not heard.