A Fair and Open Discussion (Athesim V.S Religion)

[cyberjosh]

I've not really been part of this conversation, but if I may interject, strictly logically speaking it is impossible to prove a universal negative is it not? The agnostic is more logical than an atheist in the respect that the agnostic claims that he does not or cannot know if God exists, while the atheist says that God absolutely does not exist (a universal negative).

Something to ponder on.

 

[mondar]

I've not really been part of this conversation, but if I may interject, strictly logically speaking it is impossible to prove a universal negative is it not? The agnostic is more logical than an atheist in the respect that the agnostic claims that he does not or cannot know if God exists, while the atheist says that God absolutely does not exist (a universal negative).

Something to ponder on.

If one follows what Wavy wrote, and what I wrote, I dont see that one can opt to see a viable epostemology for atheism. However, I do not see Agnosticism as faring any better. How can on prove that you cannot know if there is a God? An agnostic would simply dismiss all evidence from either atheist or theist, but on what basis can he establish his own epistemology?

Space/Time is a concept of Relativity, and Relativity is part of science. Therefore, Time, as we know it, is a part of science. Time is a part of the physical universe that began at creation (or the big bang. To postulate that God cannot exist outside of time, is to attempt to establish an epistemology of sola science. Then you have to be able to put the proposition that science is all knowledge in a test tube and test it in a repeatable experiment. I do not see either atheism or agnosticism as superior to each other, but both are epistemological failures.

 

[Free]

But anyway, 'God', whatever he is supposed to be, cannot transcend logic. And the problem I presented is a logical issue, not just scientific one. In other words, unless my reasoning is non-validating, God cannot exist.

I would think then that by your flawed logic that a singularity could not exist either.

 

[Solo]

Time began when God created it. The creation of time is recorded in His Word.

• 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

What would make one not think that the Creator's existence and environment transcends time, and space, and matter, and all that is realized in the flesh by man, especially since God is spirit?

• 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:9-16

If God does not transcend time, what does the following verse of Scripture mean?

• 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

 

[wavy]

But anyway, 'God', whatever he is supposed to be, cannot transcend logic. And the problem I presented is a logical issue, not just scientific one. In other words, unless my reasoning is non-validating, God cannot exist.

I would think then that by your flawed logic that a singularity could not exist either.

wat


Thanks,
Eric

 

[cyberjosh]

Have you considered my point on the universal negative at all Eric? What are your thoughts on it? Just wondering.

~Josh

 

[Good News Brown]

Hello everyone
For a longtime now i have been looking for a fair and open talk about religion and i must say it has been very hard but after reading through some of the posts here i feel this might be accomplished.
First off let me say that i am in no way trying to insult anyone's beliefs all i am looking for is a fair discussion using facts from credited sources or personal philosophy on whether or not god truly does exist.
Unfortunately i must say now that the bible is not a credited source because there is little historical truth to it it is mostly symbolic.

Actually, God proves His existence, probably on a daily basis. He reveals Himself to given individuals at various times: Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jo'na: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but by my father which is in heaven.

Man questions why God doesn't reveal Himself via worldwide media attention (scientific discovery, personal appearance, etc.). There will come a time where proof of God's existence will not be an issue: Romans 14:11.

There's a tendency for some to believe that during biblical times, people being not as civilized, intelligent, etc., as we are today; as a result were more prone to a belief in God. And that many today, save the more intelligent are still uncivilized in their mind because of belief in God. However, as stated in Ecclesiastes, there's nothing knew under the sun. There were those during Biblical times who did not believe in God: Psalms: 53:1 THE fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.....

Now my opening argument is this.
There can not be an all mighty being that knows everything, is everywhere, created everything and so on and so forth. And why you ask? because most people including myself are taught and a young age of god and all his wonders by our parents who in turn were taught by there parents all with out ever seeing proof of this "God" but we go on believing what we are told never questioning why we never see him hear him talk with him. ( Ok you can talk with him but it is all one sided.) We are told of Santa clause and the Easter bunny and the Tooth fairy then later told that it is impossible that they can exist. That is a very big contradiction, if god can exist why cant they? All of them are built on a belief only Santa clause has proof of being real ie Saint Nicholas.

Generally, people reach an age of maturity to where they will realize Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy don't exist without being told so. This can actually work in the same fashion with a child's belief in God. They reach a certain age where they will reason one way or the other as to whether or not God exists. The difference is, the Holy Spirit never reveals to any adults, as He did with Peter concerning the Sonship of Jesus, that SC, the EB, or the TF exist.