A few questions from an open-minded agnostic.

[John Doe Smith]

Hello. I'm somebody who has never been religious, but is curious about the beliefs and mentality of believers. I appreciate Christianity for its cultural importance and the great works of art it inspired, but for various reasons never became a believer myself. There's a few questions which have kept at nagging me, so I want to actually hear what answers Christians have for them instead of making assumptions. I apologize if these questions are inappropriate or if I phrase them in an offensive way. I plan on reading the bible cover to cover after this.

What is the correct canonicity and how do you know? : The book of Enoch is one example of a book with debatable canonicity. In it, an angel named Sariel teaches men about the moon cycles and sleeps with women against god's wishes(I'm just going off of what little I know from reading articles). Jewish rabbis at some point deemed this book non-canonical because according to Jewish belief, angels cannot willfully disobey god. They aren't capable of it. They can only make mistakes and be punished for it. Now, obviously Christians do not agree with this belief(Satan). So, why not go back and reconsider the Book of Enoch? Why should I believe Jewish rabbis who dismissed the book on false grounds(according to Christianity)? On top of that, what about texts that were burned or lost? I've seen one answer that said "God would have orchestrated events so that his word would stay perfect", but why then do different denominations have slightly different canonicity? How am I supposed to know which one is true? There isn't an angel coming down and setting things straight for some reason. Why has Christianity been confounded? Why believe in the perfect word of god if it's clearly been mangled by humans?

One response might be that slight differences in canonicity don't matter. As long as Jesus is in your heart, you will go to heaven. What about the way i'm supposed to live in life though? The bible should give me all the answers, but how can I be sure that some mistranslation, or specific choice didn't warp the meaning of the text? If a translator decides to write the same word congregation in positive contexts, and synagogue in negative ones, wouldn't that change the message a bit? Why am I denied a perfect truth?

How do you know the current consensus on "Christian morality" is correct? : One of the main pillars of Christianity is the idea of objective morality as far as I understand. Even if a person has never heard of Jesus before, they innately have a sense for God's morality, so their sins are not excused. However, the "common morality" of Christians has not remained constant. What was considered a few hundreds of years ago to be morally acceptable by typical Christians: colonialism, marrying people far younger that what is now considered acceptable, etc, is not anymore. How do you know our "modern morality" is the correct one? How do you know secular society and its "common morality" hasn't influenced and poisoned "Christian morality"? What if people from the past were right and we're wrong, even if it's only in a few ways?

Why did God create man to be so weak and dependent? : God created man to bring glory to him, but god does not need glory because he is complete. Man needs to give god glory to elevate himself. Why though? Why did god create human beings so that they need to give him glory? Even if Adam and Eve didn't need to do so, why did God create Adam and Eve to be weak enough to succumb to temptation? In fact, why did God give humans free will at all? I looked for answers to this before, and what I found amounted to " well of course he did because you cannot love if you do not have free will". Except God isn't limited by human logic. He created logic. If he wanted to, he could make it so beings without free will can love. He can do anything what so ever with no limitations if he is all-powerful.

Those are the big three. I'm not looking for a debate and I'll accept any answers given to me.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm up to Numbers now. Reading about the Tabernacle and dipping birds in the blood of other birds(guess that's what ruling over animals means) and the difference between sin offerings and free will offerings and seasonal offerings was not very compelling to be honest. The parts about what a person should do if they commit a sin when they were ignorant of that sin were confusing since I thought people couldn't be ignorant of any sin in their heart or something.

Numbers, wow and congratulations. It's always good to keep in mind when reading the Torah in regard to the priestly services, they were patterned after heavenly realities. (Exodus 25:40 and Hebrews 8:5 ). If your not familiar with types and anti-types then it may be a bit confusing. As far as ignorance, we are all guilty. We do things that in our heart, we believe are correct and good for a given circumstance, but later find it wasn't so good after all.

Anyway, I've thought more about biblical implications on daily life. All christians by definition love all other christians and anybody can be saved, right? What about psychopaths? First I want to clarify some things.

Good observation and if you asked 10 Christians this question, you would certainly get 10 responses. If you asked the Orthodox Jew, it may be a bit more uniform since they understand the Tanach far better than Christians which is what our NT is founded upon.

Ill just make this simple....
Luke 18:26-27 New King James Version (NKJV)
26 And those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?”

27 But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”

Another thing. What's value does living have? If anybody, no matter how young, has a soul, isn't dying as soon as possible preferrable?

When God finished creation he relaxed, looked back and said, "It is very good"

There is much beauty that surrounds us each and every day. I'm in no hurry to die.

Jesus said,
John 10:10 NKJV
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

 

[John Doe Smith]

Thank you both for your responses.

As far as ignorance, we are all guilty. We do things that in our heart, we believe are correct and good for a given circumstance, but later find it wasn't so good after all.

I should have been more clear. When it comes to if a person hypothetically lived in a part of the world where they would have no opportunity to read the bible or learn from a preist, I've read before that they would still be culpable for any sins they commit during their life because god wrote his objective moral code into every human. Therefore, isn't it impossible to be ignorant of a sin? That's what I was implying.

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you both for your responses.

I should have been more clear. When it comes to if a person hypothetically lived in a part of the world where they would have no opportunity to read the bible or learn from a preist, I've read before that they would still be culpable for any sins they commit during their life because god wrote his objective moral code into every human. Therefore, isn't it impossible to be ignorant of a sin? That's what I was implying.

It's really not a hypothetical. There are many who have neither knowledge of Jesus or Moses.

How do you understand this parable?
Luke12:38 NKJV
But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

 

[Shekinahglory]

Thank you both for your responses.

I should have been more clear. When it comes to if a person hypothetically lived in a part of the world where they would have no opportunity to read the bible or learn from a preist, I've read before that they would still be culpable for any sins they commit during their life because god wrote his objective moral code into every human. Therefore, isn't it impossible to be ignorant of a sin? That's what I was implying.

Good question bad deduction on my part. Scripture tells us it is impossible for men to know evil without the Law telling us it’s sin. Scripture also tells us where there is no Law there is no condemnation.

 

[John Doe Smith]

How do you understand this parable?
Luke12:38 NKJV
But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Doesn't that parable refer to servants, or christians, specifically? I'm not sure how it applies to people who not only don't believe, but have never had contact with christianity. If I extend it to apply to all humans, I think it could either mean these people will be punished depending on how egregious their sins were, or universally just punished a little.

Good question bad deduction on my part. Scripture tells us it is impossible for men to know evil without the Law telling us it’s sin. Scripture also tells us where there is no Law there is no condemnation.

It seems like there's not really group consensus on this among christians. Maybe some things necessitate individual interpretation.

 

[stovebolts]

Doesn't that parable refer to servants, or christians, specifically? I'm not sure how it applies to people who not only don't believe, but have never had contact with christianity. If I extend it to apply to all humans, I think it could either mean these people will be punished depending on how egregious their sins were, or universally just punished a little.

If im not mistaken, we're talking about sins committed in ignorance. As such, i believe this story has something to teach us.
Within each culture and religion, we find good people and not so good people. Just so we can narrow the conversation down, let's assume all evil persons from every culture and religion ( including Christianity) will go to hell because of their will full and hurtful disobedience against their fellow man and God. That leaves those who have good hearts and good intensions. God will judge each heart separately and He disciplines those he loves. Hebrews 12:6-7.

seems like there's not really group consensus on this among christians. Maybe some things necessitate individual interpretation.

I'm not sure how you can say that. The questions you ask are not as simple to answer as some may lead you to believe and boolean logic rarely applies to scripture.

What she says is true.
Romans 4:15 in regard to the Sinai Covenant between Israel alone and God for gentiles we're never under the Sania covenant.
"because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression."
Romans 5:13 NKJV
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law
Hebrews 12:8 NKJV
But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

We see a common theme within scripture that those outside of covenant are not bound as those within covenant.

 

[JohnDB]

The sacrificial system may seem like a "pay to play" system where you could commit a sin only if you could afford it...but it wasn't that way.
It was about reminding God into keeping his Promises to Abraham in spite of your poor behavior.

That time Abraham cut all those animals up and fell asleep...them woke up to deep dread and the smoking firepot walking between the animals... remember this from Genesis?

The onus of a contract was on the person who walked the blood path...which was God himself.
Man needs God. God doesn't need man...and often doesn't even like mankind.
Israel went from being a nobody to a somebody because of God's favor. Losing that favor would be horrible... meaning slavery, no heritage, no family legacy and etc.
A person needed a culture to belong to.
Many cultures had absolutely disintegrated and disappeared already... nothing but myths and legends. It's bad enough to become a slave after being an independent household leader but what's worse is watching those you care about the most getting the same treatment of slavery and becoming so much unimportant property.

What has become clear is that God grades everyone on effort because He knows the hearts of men. Even those with mental health issues. "He to whom much is given, much is required"

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm up to Numbers now. Reading about the Tabernacle and dipping birds in the blood of other birds(guess that's what ruling over animals means) and the difference between sin offerings and free will offerings and seasonal offerings was not very compelling to be honest. The parts about what a person should do if they commit a sin when they were ignorant of that sin were confusing since I thought people couldn't be ignorant of any sin in their heart or something.

Anyway, I've thought more about biblical implications on daily life. All christians by definition love all other christians and anybody can be saved, right? What about psychopaths? First I want to clarify some things. Psychopathy is a metal disability in which an individual is incapable of experiencing many emotions, including love, and emotional empathy. Sociopaths, psychopaths and narcissists are sub-types of a more general condition called antisocial personality disorder. The terms socioapth and psychopath aren't really part of psychology, but within neurology, the distinction is that sociopaths are a result of their enviroment and experiences, while psychopaths are born.

Brain scans have shown that the brains of psychopaths have abnormalities in the prefrontal cortex and the areas which control emotions are extremely weak. I can't remember the details off the top of my head, but the point is, they are born with their condition, their condition is clearly due to physical causes, their condition is incurable. Something else to keep in mind, the majority of psychopaths are not murderers or criminals. The majority of them live regular lives. Maybe being in a relationship with one might have consequences, but even that's not necessarily true. They can learn to understand and imitate other people's emotions(cognitive empathy), however they will never be able to experience love directly. Why would god create such people? They are disabled, but not intellectually, so you can't say they aren't responsible for their actions.

I've looked up the Christian perspective on this topic before online and all I could find is wacky stuff which totally lacks an understanding of the condition. One christian website said psychopaths are just "logical atheists".

Another thing. What value does living have? If anybody, no matter how young, has a soul, isn't dying as soon as possible preferrable? The heaven someone who died as an infant goes to is just as good as the heaven someone who dies at 100 goes to. Any number compared to infinity is insignificant. Life is one big elaborate test where you're stuck with people and circumstances that will constantly challenge your faith. Who likes tests? The only stopper to this line of thinking is that you can't commit suicide, so dying completely by accident is like winning the lottery. I wonder if smoking to shorten your lifespan counts as suicide?

Hi JDS,
You bring up some interesting questions.
When I was a little girl going to catechism, I learned that the reason we live is to love, honor and obey God.

Then you grow older and, at times, you wonder what we're doing on this earth. The truth is that we really don't know although each Christian has their own idea.

I believe we're here to perpetuate humanity....God said we are to multiply ourselves. Why? Who can know. Maybe it's a t est. Maybe it's a halfway world between no existence and eternity.

What I do know for sure is that there are two forces at work in the universe....the good force and the bad force. This is one of the main themes (of the approx. 35) that is explored in either written form or in movies. I'm absolutely sure that I want to be on the side of the good force.

Your idea about children dying and going to heaven is rather silly, don't you think? I mean, by that logic, it would be better if NO ONE was ever even born... Life is what it is...one dies when it's time for that person to die. The important thing is to know one is going to be with God.

 

[John Doe Smith]

Your idea about children dying and going to heaven is rather silly, don't you think? I mean, by that logic, it would be better if NO ONE was ever even born...

I wont assume that's unreasonable actually. God desired to create lesser beings to "share" with in some way for some reason. The physcial body step isn't necessary for this and is ultimately just a dangerous inconvience since compared to the afterlife, life isn't valuable. From what I've gathered based on some of the responses I've gotten, even most believers don't measure up to God's standard. They might not be putting enough effort into the "great commission" for instance. What's appealing about that risk?

 

[GodsGrace]

I wont assume that's unreasonable actually. God desired to create lesser beings to "share" with in some way for some reason. The physcial body step isn't necessary for this and is ultimately just a dangerous inconvience since compared to the afterlife, life isn't valuable. From what I've gathered based on some of the responses I've gotten, even most believers don't measure up to God's standard. They might not be putting enough effort into the "great commission" for instance. What's appealing about that risk?

No one measures up to God's standard. That's why our works do not save us. If you have two children and one does what you wish but does not love you and the other loves you AND strives to do what you wish...which one would be more in keeping with your desire to be loved?

You ask a question that could not really be answered.
No one really knows why God created us. Maybe He just loves creating and we were an idea He had. Maybe He had to share His love. Maybe we're just an experiment.

How is it a dangerous inconvienience? It is so but only for US.
This is why God has revealed Himself to us and shown us how to be on His good side. For this you could read Romans 1:19-20 (21)...it sounds like you use a bible.

The other question that can not be answered is why evil exists. People come up with their own understanding of why it may be...but actually, there is no answer.

But you didn't reply to my idea of serving the "good God" instead of the "evil god". What do you think of that? Are you a deist? An atheist? Maybe you don't believe ANY god exists...

 

[John Doe Smith]

If you have two children and one does what you wish but does not love you and the other loves you AND strives to do what you wish...which one would be more in keeping with your desire to be loved?

I would probably measure each child's love for me by their actions. Somebody saying they love me isn't as important as what they actually do, but I can't read people's hearts like God can, so it's not really comparable. Even if the obedient child told me they didn't love me, I wouldn't punish them for it. That's just me.

The other question that can not be answered is why evil exists. People come up with their own understanding of why it may be...but actually, there is no answer.

A lot of evangelical types and catholics seem like they enjoy attributing all the bad things in the world to satan. Mormons go as far as thinking the earth is controlled by satan. God giving any control over the world to satan seems ridiculous to me though.

The watch analogy commonly used to support the belief in creationism doesn't quite fit the idea that God controls everything(except humans?) all the time. Once a watch is created, its creator doesn't need to do anything else except occasional maintenance. The real world however appears to operate like a watch though. Lightning hitting people as punishment makes sense if a moral being is controlling all the levers. Lightning hitting whatever is highest in a very predictable and machine-like way doesn't as much. "Evil" like disease could easily be explained if the world is thought of as a machine God created and not something he constantly controls, but I don't think that's in accordance with scripture.

But you didn't reply to my idea of serving the "good God" instead of the "evil god". What do you think of that? Are you a deist? An atheist? Maybe you don't believe ANY god exists...

Well, I don't know whether moral dualism is real and I don't know whether any god is real either. The biggest "obstacle" for me is divine inspiration. I don't trust people all that much. You don't just have to have faith in god, you have to have faith in the people who wrote his book for him and have something to gain from you believing them. The bible doesn't talk about microbes or electrons either. However, if it rained bibles or something, I would immediately stop questioning and join a congregation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would probably measure each child's love for me by their actions. Somebody saying they love me isn't as important as what they actually do, but I can't read people's hearts like God can, so it's not really comparable. Even if the obedient child told me they didn't love me, I wouldn't punish them for it. That's just me.

Sorry JDS, been busy.
I agree with you regarding loving actions. If someone tells me they love me but don't demonstrate it -- what good is it? It's only words. I would also still love a child that does not love me...using human examples always causes problems because God is not a human being. But maybe IF the child hurt us enough,,,it WOULD cause us to feel no love for him? Maybe God was hurt so much by our sinning that He DOES require that we love Him.

A lot of evangelical types and catholics seem like they enjoy attributing all the bad things in the world to satan. Mormons go as far as thinking the earth is controlled by satan. God giving any control over the world to satan seems ridiculous to me though.

Actually, it's biblically stated that we are in the home of satan...HE is the prince of this earth. Ephesians 2:2, John 14:30, John 12:31, Matthew 4:8-9

We can attribute bad things to satan...it certainly is not God who wishes us harm. However, we must also admit that since God is sovereign over all...it is HE that ALLOWS evil to happen...nothing happens that God does not allow to happen. And what is the reason for this? We just do not know. Whoever thinks they know is sadly mistaken. Some things we'll only know when we get to heaven.

Some things that are biblical do seem kind of ridiculous...but certainly God must have a reason or He would not be a loving God.

The watch analogy commonly used to support the belief in creationism doesn't quite fit the idea that God controls everything(except humans?) all the time. Once a watch is created, its creator doesn't need to do anything else except occasional maintenance. The real world however appears to operate like a watch though. Lightning hitting people as punishment makes sense if a moral being is controlling all the levers. Lightning hitting whatever is highest in a very predictable and machine-like way doesn't as much. "Evil" like disease could easily be explained if the world is thought of as a machine God created and not something he constantly controls, but I don't think that's in accordance with scripture.

Right. The above idea would be Deism. IOW, God created the earth for us and then went on His merry way to create more stuff and left us. But you're also right that this is not biblical. The one fact that Jesus came to us as a final revelation of God shows positively that God DOES care about us and does think of us. As we read through the O.T. and the N.T. we find that God has been a part of our history all along.

Well, I don't know whether moral dualism is real and I don't know whether any god is real either. The biggest "obstacle" for me is divine inspiration. I don't trust people all that much. You don't just have to have faith in god, you have to have faith in the people who wrote his book for him and have something to gain from you believing them. The bible doesn't talk about microbes or electrons either. However, if it rained bibles or something, I would immediately stop questioning and join a congregation.

LOL
I doubt it. If it rained bibles, you'd think some aircraft dropped them by mistake!

But you've hit a big nail right on the head. And it's what you said about trusting people. In fact, it's the Apostles we trust to know what happened to Jesus. I just don't agree that they had anything to gain. Why die horrible deaths (which they all did except for John) for something you don't believe in? How could so many persons even contain a conspiracy - if it was a conspiracy? Biblical scholars that are not even Christian do believe that Jesus was a real historical person and that something such as the resurrection did in fact happen. There are books regarding this that are very interesting to read even for believers.

I hope to hear from you...you have interesting ideas.

 

[John Doe Smith]

Thank you for your response as always.

Maybe God was hurt so much by our sinning that He DOES require that we love Him.

God seems to judge people on three levels: as a group/society(chosen or not), as families(generational curses?) and as individuals. Adam's children didn't get a second chance. Every person inherited the original sin and every person is responsible for the other people who live near them. If you let a witch live next to you, you're also at fault. God knows every individual and their heart, yet he doesn't seem to always judge them as individuals responsible only for their own actions, not their peers or relatives(especially parents). Why is this? Why is any sin inherited?

The one fact that Jesus came to us as a final revelation of God shows positively that God DOES care about us and does think of us. As we read through the O.T. and the N.T. we find that God has been a part of our history all along.

Had Jesus decided to stay on Earth indefinitely, guiding humanity in the flesh and living in some temple that could be visisted, the world would probably be a much better place. Who could question a man who never dies and is visible to everyone?

I just don't agree that they had anything to gain. Why die horrible deaths (which they all did except for John) for something you don't believe in?

I don't know enough about the apostles to talk about them.

Continuing with trusting other people, worshiping as a group is required, even though there may not be any good reason to believe those around you are "real christians", which is a growing issue. There aren't exactly any congregations with an entrance exam on biblical knowledge. Knowing something about your religion at least indicates dedication. Is there a requirement to love "fake christians"?

If you're unfortunate enough to go to a church with nothing but "pew-warmers" and a priest more concerned with pleasing their customer base than God, you don't have many options. You might not even realize it if you've always gone there. You wouldn't even know that your church is "missing figs". If you do notice, but keep going out of a sense of obligation, or you want to avoid driving another half-hour to a church which may not be better, there's potential consequences. Yet trying to worship without other humans isn't really allowed.

Having a personal relationship with God, that's only one-on-one, just isn't an option. God doesn't want that kind of relationship with anyone. Whether God "likes" people as a whole is dubious(at least that's what i'm getting from some people here). He has good reasons for that, yet Christians have an obligation to do so. Worshipping in a building outside of your home with other people is mandatory. Supporting this establishment is expected.

I read an article about this. Apparently worshipping on your own only is "walking in darkness". Except you're not doing it on your own, you're with Jesus, so why should the absence of other humans matter? Is just studying the bible and living the correct lifestyle sinful? If everyone started doing this, churches and priests would not have a good time. There's some room for cynical interpretation.

There was a cult led by a former preacher who claimed to be Jesus. Reportedly, he was originally very good at his intended job. Everyone can learn something from this documentary about them.

You can see time and time again just how weak people are, especially if they're young. Even as a group of believers, these people stumbled so hard on the Christian path they fell flat on their face and tumbled down a mountain side. This is an extreme example, but imagine how much like it happens on a micro-scale. So how much merit could worshipping in a group have?

 

[Shekinahglory]

I believe we have a somewhat warped view of God and His judgment because we lack a full look at His actions with the man named Cain. Cain as we know defied God every chance he could. The Lord did not give up on Cain. The Lord we are told of judgment it is His Strange work. Yet for many Christians they know and teach a God just waiting to judge you.

Cain not only defied the Lord he killed his brother so this is not a minor sinner. How many would never seek to save Cain? we look at God and the things He does and a way to narrow scope. Take banishing Cain to the Land of Nod. Cain saw everything God was doing as punishment to great to endure. But this is the Good Shepherd seeking His lost sheep. We may not like Cain or his actions but Scripture tells us we maybe unfaithful. But we are condition for many with can’t wait to judge you. So the Lord sends Cain to the Land of Nod. Nod means “wandering” why did the Lord do this? Cain worked the land and brought things that were raised from his garden. If Cain accepted the punishment he would have to live as a pilgrim a wander who could not work the land. Cain was given either a sin-offering or sin as the word can mean either. The Lord tells Cain that he has to learn to master sin or the sin-offering. If Cain rejects the Lord then he has to learn how to handle sin and if he can’t then he needs to learn how to offer the sin-offering in his place. How much more did God need to do? This is our God who even seeks a Cain. The Lord God Almighty is the one who came into the world not to judge it but to save it.

 

[OzSpen]

No one measures up to God's standard. That's why our works do not save us. If you have two children and one does what you wish but does not love you and the other loves you AND strives to do what you wish...which one would be more in keeping with your desire to be loved?

You ask a question that could not really be answered.
No one really knows why God created us. Maybe He just loves creating and we were an idea He had. Maybe He had to share His love. Maybe we're just an experiment.

How is it a dangerous inconvienience? It is so but only for US.
This is why God has revealed Himself to us and shown us how to be on His good side. For this you could read Romans 1:19-20 (21)...it sounds like you use a bible.

The other question that can not be answered is why evil exists. People come up with their own understanding of why it may be...but actually, there is no answer.

But you didn't reply to my idea of serving the "good God" instead of the "evil god". What do you think of that? Are you a deist? An atheist? Maybe you don't believe ANY god exists...

wondering,

In the context of this discussion, is it worth discussing a brief article I wrote a while ago: Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

You stated:

The other question that can not be answered is why evil exists. People come up with their own understanding of why it may be...but actually, there is no answer.

I'm not convinced this is correct. God has told us where evil began, why it continues and what would happen if God stamped it out right now. There is a time in the future when evil will no longer exist on the planet.

I'm writing a lesson on, 'Why does God allow suffering and evil?' for a high school religious instruction curriculum. I wouldn't begin the lesson if God hadn't provided a solution.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

In the context of this discussion, is it worth discussing a brief article I wrote a while ago: Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

You stated:


I'm not convinced this is correct. God has told us where evil began, why it continues and what would happen if God stamped it out right now. There is a time in the future when evil will no longer exist on the planet.

I'm writing a lesson on, 'Why does God allow suffering and evil?' for a high school religious instruction curriculum. I wouldn't begin the lesson if God hadn't provided a solution.

Blessings,
Oz

Hi Oz,,,
Just woke up and still to sleepy, but there is no solution for the problem of evil.

If God is all-good AND omnipotent...there is no reason why evil should exist at all. I can't discuss your article this time because I haven't read it.

If God can stop satan in the future, why not now?

The only solution, as I can see, is that God created evil...but we know this cannot be ... so what is the answer? There is none.

Even if God only ALLOWS evil....WHY would He?
Again...no answer.

 

[John Doe Smith]

In the context of this discussion, is it worth discussing a brief article I wrote a while ago: Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

I read this and your "Is Hell an Infinite Punishment" article. Boiled down, it's about semantics. The colloquial usage of infinite is different from the mathematical one. Same for theory and the scientific usage.

The only solution, as I can see, is that God created evil...

I've read somwhere that evil only means absence of God and whatever he's not involved in is evil.

 

[WIP]

Having a personal relationship with God, that's only one-on-one, just isn't an option. God doesn't want that kind of relationship with anyone.

I don't agree with this statement. Every year for the past few years beginning on January 1, I either read or listen to an audio version of the entire Bible from beginning to end. Each time I do this, I discover something that jumps out at me and I believe it is God speaking to me.

About four years ago as I was listening to an audio version I kept noticing a particular theme or phrase or thought that seemed to poke at me. At first, I didn't pay too much attention. The following year, I was using the audio again and again I kept getting poked with this same thing. It was capturing my attention enough that I finally felt I had to do a study of my own and put it to rest.

What I kept hearing was a recurring reference to statements from God to the effect that He wants us to know Him. There are statements by God affirming who He is such as, "I am the Lord" and "I am God" and "I am your Shield" and "I am your Salvation" and so on. If my memory is correct, I found somewhere around 130 references like this throughout the Bible.

Then there were statements by God affirming what He wants from us such as "So you will know I am God" and "So they will know that I am Lord" and "So you will know Me" and so on. Here again, I believe I found somewhere around 150 references like this too.

I believe God most definitely wants a personal relationship with us just as He did with Adam. The problem is that we are in a state of rebellion and do not want the same. We would rather be our own gods.

 

[GodsGrace]

I read this and your "Is Hell an Infinite Punishment" article. Boiled down, it's about semantics. The colloquial usage of infinite is different from the mathematical one. Same for theory and the scientific usage.

I've read somwhere that evil only means absence of God and whatever he's not involved in is evil.

Gosh JDS,,,I do dislike partial statements of members being quoted.
The second one above is mine,,,but it makes it sound like I said that God created evil and this is NOT what I said.

Kind of like journalism....Please use my entire quote..even if it's not the entire post.

I also hear some say that evil is the absence of good,,,or the absence of God. So where would one say God is absent if it's GOD that holds up the entire universe? If God let go for one split second, everything would fall apart.

So is a hurricane the absence of a soft breeze -- or is it something in and of itself?

Evil is real.
Ephesians 6:12 We are exhorted to stand firm agains the devil because...
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,,,
Just woke up and still to sleepy, but there is no solution for the problem of evil.

If God is all-good AND omnipotent...there is no reason why evil should exist at all. I can't discuss your article this time because I haven't read it.

If God can stop satan in the future, why not now?

The only solution, as I can see, is that God created evil...but we know this cannot be ... so what is the answer? There is none.

Even if God only ALLOWS evil....WHY would He?
Again...no answer.

wondering,

You have left out a number of steps in your statements above, in my understanding of Scripture.

Who is responsible for all sin in the universe?

Back in 2012, I wrote this article, Did God create evil?

I've done further thinking since then and am working on teaching for high school students in Religious Instruction (one period a week in State schools), 'Why does God allow suffering and evil?' The study is not complete yet.

Why didn't God make human beings without free will?

What would happen if God wiped out ALL evil NOW?

Oz