A few questions from an open-minded agnostic.

[John Doe Smith]

Hello. I'm somebody who has never been religious, but is curious about the beliefs and mentality of believers. I appreciate Christianity for its cultural importance and the great works of art it inspired, but for various reasons never became a believer myself. There's a few questions which have kept at nagging me, so I want to actually hear what answers Christians have for them instead of making assumptions. I apologize if these questions are inappropriate or if I phrase them in an offensive way. I plan on reading the bible cover to cover after this.

What is the correct canonicity and how do you know? : The book of Enoch is one example of a book with debatable canonicity. In it, an angel named Sariel teaches men about the moon cycles and sleeps with women against god's wishes(I'm just going off of what little I know from reading articles). Jewish rabbis at some point deemed this book non-canonical because according to Jewish belief, angels cannot willfully disobey god. They aren't capable of it. They can only make mistakes and be punished for it. Now, obviously Christians do not agree with this belief(Satan). So, why not go back and reconsider the Book of Enoch? Why should I believe Jewish rabbis who dismissed the book on false grounds(according to Christianity)? On top of that, what about texts that were burned or lost? I've seen one answer that said "God would have orchestrated events so that his word would stay perfect", but why then do different denominations have slightly different canonicity? How am I supposed to know which one is true? There isn't an angel coming down and setting things straight for some reason. Why has Christianity been confounded? Why believe in the perfect word of god if it's clearly been mangled by humans?

One response might be that slight differences in canonicity don't matter. As long as Jesus is in your heart, you will go to heaven. What about the way i'm supposed to live in life though? The bible should give me all the answers, but how can I be sure that some mistranslation, or specific choice didn't warp the meaning of the text? If a translator decides to write the same word congregation in positive contexts, and synagogue in negative ones, wouldn't that change the message a bit? Why am I denied a perfect truth?

How do you know the current consensus on "Christian morality" is correct? : One of the main pillars of Christianity is the idea of objective morality as far as I understand. Even if a person has never heard of Jesus before, they innately have a sense for God's morality, so their sins are not excused. However, the "common morality" of Christians has not remained constant. What was considered a few hundreds of years ago to be morally acceptable by typical Christians: colonialism, marrying people far younger that what is now considered acceptable, etc, is not anymore. How do you know our "modern morality" is the correct one? How do you know secular society and its "common morality" hasn't influenced and poisoned "Christian morality"? What if people from the past were right and we're wrong, even if it's only in a few ways?

Why did God create man to be so weak and dependent? : God created man to bring glory to him, but god does not need glory because he is complete. Man needs to give god glory to elevate himself. Why though? Why did god create human beings so that they need to give him glory? Even if Adam and Eve didn't need to do so, why did God create Adam and Eve to be weak enough to succumb to temptation? In fact, why did God give humans free will at all? I looked for answers to this before, and what I found amounted to " well of course he did because you cannot love if you do not have free will". Except God isn't limited by human logic. He created logic. If he wanted to, he could make it so beings without free will can love. He can do anything what so ever with no limitations if he is all-powerful.

Those are the big three. I'm not looking for a debate and I'll accept any answers given to me.

 

[Christ_empowered]

hi. im jumping in here -very- late, just...couldn't resist the urge to type my 2 cents worth, as they say.


OK...the canon was decided I think in 325 CE or so. fun fact: the original JKV Bibles included The Apocrypha. I think it was purged in the 19th century or so. As a Christian...

I believe that The Bible, as is, is a result of God moving thru men and women and getting the correct books together for future generations whom He would choose to draw nigh unto Him. and...

yes, morality shifts and changes over the years, centuries. why? well...

Scripture speaks of building one's house (life) on "the solid rock," which would be Jesus and The Good News. Christ, and Him Resurrected, basically. This is compared to building on sand, the shifting and changing whims of the surrounding world. And yet...

1) human nature is fairly constant. we're all self-centered, self-loving, prideful, boastful, turned away from God...from birth, no less. So...a lot of the shifts in morality have more to do with with social and economic shifts (I'd recommend skimming Marx for more on that), not any change in the core of human nature.

2) Christianity at the core is fairly constant. God is omnipotent and omniscient and, thank goodness, omnibenevolent--"...'twas grace that saved a wretch like me." I think you posted a question about marriage. Early Christians were often celibate. Marriage for the faithful is a big deal...you get 1 shot (usually...) at a meaningful, -life long- , faithful union with someone of the other sex. many do not marry. many cannot marry.

3) Remember this: The Good Lord saves His people from sin, satan, self, death, and the world. notice: The World. In The Pilgrim's Progress, the world is shown as "Vanity Fair," if I recall correctly, and it is a constant source of temptation and sometimes pain for the faithful believer.

4) I cannot convince you to repent and be saved. I don't think anyone can. I can see about planting seeds that may or may not bear fruit in the days and years to come. It is God who gives the increase, after all.

5) God is Love.

6) Scripture makes a whole lot more sense to me -now- , after Jesus took serious pity on me and I repented, than it did when I was unrepentant, still in and of the world. I found The Bible rather dull back then...now, I see wisdom and, above all else, Truth.

ok. off to bed now. have a nice day.

 

[John Doe Smith]

hi. im jumping in here -very- late, just...couldn't resist the urge to type my 2 cents worth, as they say.

Thank you for sharing. God as everything that exists vs God as only the good things that exist is also a bit confusing. I haven't read it yet, but doesn't the Book of Job sort of conflict with an all "good" God? Jesus, the son, might be completely benevolent in the human sense of it, but what about the father? God must have created "darkness", right? Or is "darkness" just any opposition to God?

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you for sharing. God as everything that exists vs God as only the good things that exist is also a bit confusing. I haven't read it yet, but doesn't the Book of Job sort of conflict with an all "good" God? Jesus, the son, might be completely benevolent in the human sense of it, but what about the father? God must have created "darkness", right? Or is "darkness" just any opposition to God?

Job 1:6-22 In the case of Job God allowed Satan to come against him to prove to Satan how faithful Job was in spite of the oppositions he faced. This is like us everyday that our faith is always tested as all of us face many things of this world as Satan wants to steal our faith in Jesus.

God did not create darkness (evil), but brought light to the darkness, but yet even today many reject that light which is Jesus, John 1:1-14.

 

[JohnDB]

Actually John Doe Smith and Christ_empowered an abbreviated version of how the English version of the the Bible came about is in the "Classes" section of the Forum under the Title "Game Of Thrones". And yes the link should take you there. You can't comment but reading is allowed and I'm happy to answer any questions.

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you for sharing. God as everything that exists vs God as only the good things that exist is also a bit confusing. I haven't read it yet, but doesn't the Book of Job sort of conflict with an all "good" God? Jesus, the son, might be completely benevolent in the human sense of it, but what about the father? God must have created "darkness", right? Or is "darkness" just any opposition to God?

Hi kind sir.
With scripture, we see that all God creates is good and scripture calls that light. Within the creation account, we see that darkness is the absence of creation. In other words, darkness is nothing more than the absence of light. Thus, the first thing God says is, "Let there be light". Prior to this, darkness already existed for it is the absence of light.

Darkness is not in opposition to God, but rather, darkness is the result of the absence of light. When you bring a light into a dark room, darkness does not oppose the light. Instead, it is the very nature of light to pierce through the darkness.

Here is a simple example.
A man is poor and has no food to eat and he and his family go hungry. God has provided an abundance of food to feed every human being, yet we still see starvation in 3rd world countries.

When one has the means to help another and does so, he creates light which pierces through the darkness. However, when one has the means to help, yet does not act toward helping, darkness remains.

In this situation, darkness was not created. Instead, it is simply the absence of light.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hi. I will only tell you how I realized Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. First, I was open. That meant, I didn't judge Jesus on what I was seeing in the world as a representative of who he is. Maybe you know, or don't know that in the Bible it says that there is a great apostasy in the end times. Well, this is why I found the truth. I looked past what was being presented as Jesus and actually went to the Bible itself and that is where I found who he really is. He is Love. I was looking for what the true meaning of love is and there is nothing that compares to what the definition of love is. This is how I know with 100% certainty that Jesus is the real deal.

No person in history has done what he has done or said the things he has said. He gave himself up for those who hated him. That is not how people operate and so this is a major reason I know he is legit.

May you get some divine revelation......

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi. I will only tell you how I realized Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. First, I was open. That meant, I didn't judge Jesus on what I was seeing in the world as a representative of who he is. Maybe you know, or don't know that in the Bible it says that there is a great apostasy in the end times. Well, this is why I found the truth. I looked past what was being presented as Jesus and actually went to the Bible itself and that is where I found who he really is. He is Love. I was looking for what the true meaning of love is and there is nothing that compares to what the definition of love is. This is how I know with 100% certainty that Jesus is the real deal.

No person in history has done what he has done or said the things he has said. He gave himself up for those who hated him. That is not how people operate and so this is a major reason I know he is legit.

May you get some divine revelation......

There is a song the children sing and it goes "Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so, little ones to Him belong. they are weak, but He is strong." Jesus said come to me as little children.

Matthew 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[John Doe Smith]

May you get some divine revelation......

There is a song the children sing and it goes "Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so, little ones to Him belong. they are weak, but He is strong." Jesus said come to me as little children.

Thank you for your well wishes. I started Genesis today. I'm reading the King James translation because I like the english it's written in. To be a little honest, i'm only reading it out of cultural curiosity. I'm too old and know too many things, and maybe my "heart has hardened" or i'm some type of swine. I already know whales are mammals and I already know people can't live for hundreds of years and I already know 2 of a kind isn't enough genetic diversity. Wives for Cain and his sons and Seth and his sons seem to come out of thin air. I also already know questioning these things is pointless.

I'm an enginering major and I need something to read on the bus and between classes.

 

[JohnDB]

Thank you for your well wishes. I started Genesis today. I'm reading the King James translation because I like the english it's written in. To be a little honest, i'm only reading it out of cultural curiosity. I'm too old and know too many things, and maybe my "heart has hardened" or i'm some type of swine. I already know whales are mammals and I already know people can't live for hundreds of years and I already know 2 of a kind isn't enough genetic diversity. Wives for Cain and his sons and Seth and his sons seem to come out of thin air. I also already know questioning these things is pointless.

I'm an enginering major and I need something to read on the bus and between classes.

Remember what I said about hermeneutics?

Sure reading it in King James (Oxford/Cambridge Translation) in 17th century English seems like a foreign language but it isn't the same as Hebrew.

You are reading Hebrew poetry.

It isn't going to make a lot of sense considering it was in the Ancient Near East and over 3500-4000 years ago.

There are helps/expository commentaries that can help you understand why it was written in the manner it was written. And where it seems like a History book that is not it's function. Yes, it contains history but it's focus is on a lot of other things that have nothing to do with history.

 

[OzSpen]

Hello. I'm somebody who has never been religious, but is curious about the beliefs and mentality of believers. I appreciate Christianity for its cultural importance and the great works of art it inspired, but for various reasons never became a believer myself. There's a few questions which have kept at nagging me, so I want to actually hear what answers Christians have for them instead of making assumptions. I apologize if these questions are inappropriate or if I phrase them in an offensive way. I plan on reading the bible cover to cover after this.

What is the correct canonicity and how do you know? : The book of Enoch is one example of a book with debatable canonicity. In it, an angel named Sariel teaches men about the moon cycles and sleeps with women against god's wishes(I'm just going off of what little I know from reading articles). Jewish rabbis at some point deemed this book non-canonical because according to Jewish belief, angels cannot willfully disobey god. They aren't capable of it. They can only make mistakes and be punished for it. Now, obviously Christians do not agree with this belief(Satan). So, why not go back and reconsider the Book of Enoch? Why should I believe Jewish rabbis who dismissed the book on false grounds(according to Christianity)? On top of that, what about texts that were burned or lost? I've seen one answer that said "God would have orchestrated events so that his word would stay perfect", but why then do different denominations have slightly different canonicity? How am I supposed to know which one is true? There isn't an angel coming down and setting things straight for some reason. Why has Christianity been confounded? Why believe in the perfect word of god if it's clearly been mangled by humans?

One response might be that slight differences in canonicity don't matter. As long as Jesus is in your heart, you will go to heaven. What about the way i'm supposed to live in life though? The bible should give me all the answers, but how can I be sure that some mistranslation, or specific choice didn't warp the meaning of the text? If a translator decides to write the same word congregation in positive contexts, and synagogue in negative ones, wouldn't that change the message a bit? Why am I denied a perfect truth?

How do you know the current consensus on "Christian morality" is correct? : One of the main pillars of Christianity is the idea of objective morality as far as I understand. Even if a person has never heard of Jesus before, they innately have a sense for God's morality, so their sins are not excused. However, the "common morality" of Christians has not remained constant. What was considered a few hundreds of years ago to be morally acceptable by typical Christians: colonialism, marrying people far younger that what is now considered acceptable, etc, is not anymore. How do you know our "modern morality" is the correct one? How do you know secular society and its "common morality" hasn't influenced and poisoned "Christian morality"? What if people from the past were right and we're wrong, even if it's only in a few ways?

Why did God create man to be so weak and dependent? : God created man to bring glory to him, but god does not need glory because he is complete. Man needs to give god glory to elevate himself. Why though? Why did god create human beings so that they need to give him glory? Even if Adam and Eve didn't need to do so, why did God create Adam and Eve to be weak enough to succumb to temptation? In fact, why did God give humans free will at all? I looked for answers to this before, and what I found amounted to " well of course he did because you cannot love if you do not have free will". Except God isn't limited by human logic. He created logic. If he wanted to, he could make it so beings without free will can love. He can do anything what so ever with no limitations if he is all-powerful.

Those are the big three. I'm not looking for a debate and I'll accept any answers given to me.

JDS,

I'll pick up one point this time about he Book of Enoch not being in the Bible. I recommend the brief article, What is the book of Enoch and should it be in the Bible?

It's interesting the Book of Enoch is quoted in the canonical Book of Jude, vv 14-15, but that does not make Enoch inspired by God.

For an examination of why the Book of Enoch should not be in the Bible, I recommend a read of the index references in F F Bruce, The Canon of Scripture (portion of it is available HERE). The Jews did not include the Apocrypha in the Old Testament.Scriptures, so they didn't regard its books as being inspired by God. Take a read of Tobit and Bel and the Dragon to get some ideas of the fanciful approach in these 2 books.

If you read the Bible through, I recommend a modern translation such as the New International Version (the Study Edition may be helpful as the notes of explanation per page are like a mini commentary), the New Living Translation, or the English Standard Version.

As to how canonicity was determined, there were various means to check that each book was prophetic (from God) and the people of God had to discover which books were prophetic.

I recommend the excellent coverage of 'The Canonicity of the Bible' (ch 28) in Norman Geisler 2002. Systematic Theology: Introduction; Bible, vol 1. Minneapolis, Minnesota: Systematic Theology.

I hope to hear back from you after you've read some of these suggestions.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Thank you for your well wishes. I started Genesis today. I'm reading the King James translation because I like the english it's written in. To be a little honest, i'm only reading it out of cultural curiosity. I'm too old and know too many things, and maybe my "heart has hardened" or i'm some type of swine. I already know whales are mammals and I already know people can't live for hundreds of years and I already know 2 of a kind isn't enough genetic diversity. Wives for Cain and his sons and Seth and his sons seem to come out of thin air. I also already know questioning these things is pointless.

I'm an enginering major and I need something to read on the bus and between classes.

John DS,

Even though you might like the old English of the KJV, some of its language is out of date and misleading. Just one example. Throughout the NT the KJV translates 3 different Greek words as 'hell'. This is misleading when they refer to 3 different places.

I speaketh not in thateth way any longer. I longeth for the day wheneth it is exchanged for something that meaneth what I understandeth in today's world.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you for your well wishes. I started Genesis today. I'm reading the King James translation because I like the english it's written in. To be a little honest, i'm only reading it out of cultural curiosity. I'm too old and know too many things, and maybe my "heart has hardened" or i'm some type of swine. I already know whales are mammals and I already know people can't live for hundreds of years and I already know 2 of a kind isn't enough genetic diversity. Wives for Cain and his sons and Seth and his sons seem to come out of thin air. I also already know questioning these things is pointless.

I'm an enginering major and I need something to read on the bus and between classes.

You are never to old to learn new things and I don't believe your heart is harden, but possibly curious as you have picked up a Bible to start reading it. So many things we thought we knew can be deceiving, especially when truth reveals itself to us.

I too read the KJV and it's not that hard to understand. Everyone has their favorite version, but I like the KJV.

Were we born knowing there is a God who created the heavens and the earth and all of creation, no. Were we born knowing that Jesus is Lord and Savior, no. It took God calling us to Him that many have heard His voice and have answered His call. I could be wrong, but if you are honest with your self I think maybe God is calling you and you might faintly be hearing Him.

You said to be a "little honest" your reading the Bible is out of cultural curiosity. Be totally honest with yourself as why have you picked up a Bible to read it. You need not respond to that question, but just think about it.

As Christians the Bible is our instruction manual in God's righteousness and teaches us of the love of God and being obedient to His commands which are easy to follow as His greatest commandment is love. It also teaches us how to have a personal relationship with Jesus.

We are here to help with any questions you might have.

 

[Boaz]

Thank you and everybody else for your answers. I'd like to discuss these two points. While it's true that among human societies, there are some consistencies in law and taboos( among many other things), how things are defined differs by place and time period. How do you define rape? How do you define pedophilia? Murder? Theft? Slavery? Genuinely faithful christians dueled and killed each other in the past and owned slaves or indentured servants and took spoils of war. The way these things are defined has not remained constant, yet God's morality is unchanging. What if people five centuries ago had the definitions right, and we have it wrong? If how any sin is defined depends on human consensus, the meaning of idolatry or anything else can be twisted to suit human tastes and feelings.

A better version of humans seems to me like angels. Don't angels love god? Don't angels share with God and understand his love? Aren't angels part of God's family? So why make something as inferior as humans? Angels presumably know the difference between good and evil, yet they are well-equiped to handle this knowledge while humans are not.

We are made a little lower than the angels,Psalm 8:5 (that is where the quote is in v 5, but entire Psalm would be a good one to read) but that does not mean we are inferior to them, we just have different purposes and rolls as Psalm 8 explains.
Adam and Eve were created with complete free will and they were also created to have personal fellowship with God. He was with them in the Garden. They were capable of sinning but they knew nothing about sin. They had not yet eaten of the fruit of the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. When they were deceived by Satan that God told them not to eat that fruit not because it was bad for them, but really because He didn't want them to be equal to Him. That God was jealous, and they ate that fruit, they sinned. Try not to think of sin as the dos and do nots that as you said change with the culture, but rather with rebellion against God. There are of course individual sins or rebellions and they are laid out in the ten Commandments. Remember though that Jesus pointed out that it is not only the letter of the Law that matters but the spirit of the law.
A horrible thing happened to the entire human race when that forbidden fruit was consumed. Because God had made Adam to be the federal head of mankind ( as Adam goes, so go we all), we are each born with that sin nature. We cannot help but sin. Some more than others or in worse ways but we are all at enmity with God. Gen.3:15, Romans3:23
That is what original sin means by the way, not the first sin but the effect of that first sin. It caused us to be born with sin residing in US. God is holy and sin or sinfulness can not be in the same place He is so the relationship we were created to have with Him was broken. We were put out of the Garden.
Just for an lol, that was the beginning of climate change. Not only did man have to become subject to death, so did our entire home, Earth. We could not be allowed to live forever. It is bad enough as it is, think what it would be. It says in Romans8:25 that all of creation is groaning awaiting the fullness of our salvation.
God set out to save us. There is a controversy in the church as to who the US are. Some say it is those who choose Jesus of their own free will. Others say God chooses those who are saved and gives them Faith to trust in Jesus for salvation. Either way a Saviour was needed to save some from the wrath of God that we all deserve. Of course God could just say "you are all forgiven" and saved everyone. Or He could have wiped us all out in one fell swoop. His reasons for doing things the way He did is beyond the necessity of us needing to know or He would have told us. Doesn't mean we don't want to know, but we don't need to. What His word does tell us is His character. Of the necessity of His very character, all He does is perfect. This Savior had to be as the Bible referred to Jesus, a second Adam. That is human but without that seed of sin in Him. He had to be one of us with all the sorrows and pains and temptations to sin, just like us. But then to NOT sin, and lay down His pure and holy life in horrific death, one reserved for the worst of the worst, as payment for the sins of His people. Their sins were punished and paid for on the cross and His righteousness was imputed to those whose sins He paid for.
Of course there was no one who qualified to do this. So God came to us Himself, Emmanuel, God with us, and saved His people, all those who put their trust in Jesus.

 

[Boaz]

We are made a little lower than the angels,Psalm 8:5 (that is where the quote is in v 5, but entire Psalm would be a good one to read) but that does not mean we are inferior to them, we just have different purposes and rolls as Psalm 8 explains.
Adam and Eve were created with complete free will and they were also created to have personal fellowship with God. He was with them in the Garden. They were capable of sinning but they knew nothing about sin. They had not yet eaten of the fruit of the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. When they were deceived by Satan that God told them not to eat that fruit not because it was bad for them, but really because He didn't want them to be equal to Him. That God was jealous, and they ate that fruit, they sinned. Try not to think of sin as the dos and do nots that as you said change with the culture, but rather with rebellion against God. There are of course individual sins or rebellions and they are laid out in the ten Commandments. Remember though that Jesus pointed out that it is not only the letter of the Law that matters but the spirit of the law.
A horrible thing happened to the entire human race when that forbidden fruit was consumed. Because God had made Adam to be the federal head of mankind ( as Adam goes, so go we all), we are each born with that sin nature. We cannot help but sin. Some more than others or in worse ways but we are all at enmity with God. Gen.3:15, Romans3:23
That is what original sin means by the way, not the first sin but the effect of that first sin. It caused us to be born with sin residing in US. God is holy and sin or sinfulness can not be in the same place He is so the relationship we were created to have with Him was broken. We were put out of the Garden.
Just for an lol, that was the beginning of climate change. Not only did man have to become subject to death, so did our entire home, Earth. We could not be allowed to live forever. It is bad enough as it is, think what it would be. It says in Romans8:25 that all of creation is groaning awaiting the fullness of our salvation.
God set out to save us. There is a controversy in the church as to who the US are. Some say it is those who choose Jesus of their own free will. Others say God chooses those who are saved and gives them Faith to trust in Jesus for salvation. Either way a Saviour was needed to save some from the wrath of God that we all deserve. Of course God could just say "you are all forgiven" and saved everyone. Or He could have wiped us all out in one fell swoop. His reasons for doing things the way He did is beyond the necessity of us needing to know or He would have told us. Doesn't mean we don't want to know, but we don't need to. What His word does tell us is His character. Of the necessity of His very character, all He does is perfect. This Savior had to be as the Bible referred to Jesus, a second Adam. That is human but without that seed of sin in Him. He had to be one of us with all the sorrows and pains and temptations to sin, just like us. But then to NOT sin, and lay down His pure and holy life in horrific death, one reserved for the worst of the worst, as payment for the sins of His people. Their sins were punished and paid for on the cross and His righteousness was imputed to those whose sins He paid for.
Of course there was no one who qualified to do this. So God came to us Himself, Emmanuel, God with us, and saved His people, all those who put their trust in Jesus.

The Bible tells us that we are made in His image and likeness. He gave us our own home, Earth. Genesis tells us that He elaborately created and prepared it for us. We were meant to be a kind of ANALOGY of Him. We are autonomous, we 're always under His government, we are created beings after all, creatures. We are not omniscient, omnipresent or omnipotent. We were to be an image, not God, but an image of His character. And we were meant to take care and rule over the place that He had given us. Just look at what we have done to it since we fell. We've paved over it, eradicated vast forests, eaten many of the animals intended to be our friends, wiped others to extinction, because of us they often devour each other. We have blighted remaining open spaces with wind farms, hoping that will undo the damage we have done. We needed a Savior 'll right, in Mercy and by Grace we have been given one and we wait in blessed assurance for the fullness of our salvation and the restoration of all things.

 

[Boaz]

The Bible tells us that we are made in His image and likeness. He gave us our own home, Earth. Genesis tells us that He elaborately created and prepared it for us. We were meant to be a kind of ANALOGY of Him. We are autonomous, we 're always under His government, we are created beings after all, creatures. We are not omniscient, omnipresent or omnipotent. We were to be an image, not God, but an image of His character. And we were meant to take care and rule over the place that He had given us. Just look at what we have done to it since we fell. We've paved over it, eradicated vast forests, eaten many of the animals intended to be our friends, wiped others to extinction, because of us they often devour each other. We have blighted remaining open spaces with wind farms, hoping that will undo the damage we have done. We needed a Savior 'll right, in Mercy and by Grace we have been given one and we wait in blessed assurance for the fullness of our salvation and the restoration of all things.

Typo in there. WE ARE NOT AUTONAMOUS (think spelling is wrong, but we are subject to God)

 

[for_his_glory]

John DS,

Even though you might like the old English of the KJV, some of its language is out of date and misleading. Just one example. Throughout the NT the KJV translates 3 different Greek words as 'hell'. This is misleading when they refer to 3 different places.

I speaketh not in thateth way any longer. I longeth for the day wheneth it is exchanged for something that meaneth what I understandeth in today's world.

Oz

With all due respect I would not say it is outdated or misleading as it is proper English of that era and the words mean the same today as they did back then. It's just that our English slang takes on many definitions for one single word. Some words that need clarified like hell needs to be taken back to the original Hebrew and Greek for their proper meaning within the context of what is written. The original 1611 English is not that hard to read, but the 1769 version of the KJV made it easier to read with the thee's and thou's.

IMO, (and this is not directed at you), this is what turns so many off from reading the scriptures in the KJV as everyone has come up with a simpler text, but yet define one word by many English definitions that causes so much confusion when trying to teach others. For my own self this is why I mainly read and study out of the KJV along with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.

 

[John Doe Smith]

You are never to old to learn new things and I don't believe your heart is harden, but possibly curious as you have picked up a Bible to start reading it. So many things we thought we knew can be deceiving, especially when truth reveals itself to us.

Either way a Saviour was needed to save some from the wrath of God that we all deserve. Of course God could just say "you are all forgiven" and saved everyone. Or He could have wiped us all out in one fell swoop. His reasons for doing things the way He did is beyond the necessity of us needing to know or He would have told us.

This is a bit off-topic, but I feel like saying it. I don't believe humans are special. We have feelings and inclinations and patterns of behavior, but I don't trust them to point to any truth. When I was younger I had all kinds of strange delusions. I thought the weather depended on my mood. I held my breath when I walked past people I thought were stupid because I was afraid breathing the same air as them would "infect me". At one point I considered the possibility that every day I was never the same person as yesterday, but a copy with all the memories of past copies.

Later I thought I was living in a simulation and aliens were using me as a test subject. Why do all people seem like they fit a "type" that I can predict just by their appearance? Why do I get the feeling things are repeating? Why can I almost predict what people I spend a lot of time around are going to say and do? Maybe the aliens get lazy and copy and paste things. Why not? Other times I'd look in the mirror and not recognize myself. I'd see myself from an "outsiders" perspective, like from some other planet. Why do these thumbs look like ugly, misshapen stumps? What even are "thumbs"? Part of me rationally denied these beliefs, but another just "felt it".

That's were feelings get you. Even now I'm saddled with some hidden beliefs that I know would sound crazy to anybody but myself. From my point of view, Christianity seems like a more focused, group version of that. Of course it feels good and sublime and elevating. A universe with hell is far less terrifying than one without any. That's just my opinion though and I don't expect anybody to agree with it.

 

[WIP]

Wives for Cain and his sons and Seth and his sons seem to come out of thin air.

The thing to keep in mind is that the Bible isn't a complete record of every human ever born. The Bible focused on the two boys but Adam and Eve likely had many, many children besides Cain and Able. After all, God did tell them to be fruitful and multiply and they lived for hundreds of years.

 

[JohnDB]

This is a bit off-topic, but I feel like saying it. I don't believe humans are special. We have feelings and inclinations and patterns of behavior, but I don't trust them to point to any truth. When I was younger I had all kinds of strange delusions. I thought the weather depended on my mood. I held my breath when I walked past people I thought were stupid because I was afraid breathing the same air as them would "infect me". At one point I considered the possibility that every day I was never the same person as yesterday, but a copy with all the memories of past copies.

Later I thought I was living in a simulation and aliens were using me as a test subject. Why do all people seem like they fit a "type" that I can predict just by their appearance? Why do I get the feeling things are repeating? Why can I almost predict what people I spend a lot of time around are going to say and do? Maybe the aliens get lazy and copy and paste things. Why not? Other times I'd look in the mirror and not recognize myself. I'd see myself from an "outsiders" perspective, like from some other planet. Why do these thumbs look like ugly, misshapen stumps? What even are "thumbs"? Part of me rationally denied these beliefs, but another just "felt it".

That's were feelings get you. Even now I'm saddled with some hidden beliefs that I know would sound crazy to anybody but myself. From my point of view, Christianity seems like a more focused, group version of that. Of course it feels good and sublime and elevating. A universe with hell is far less terrifying than one without any. That's just my opinion though and I don't expect anybody to agree with it.

We humans are rather predictable at times.

When I mention a crotchity, grumpy old man you can fill in all the rest of the details about this guy from experience in your community.

If I mention a bubbly, happy, silly teenage girl...you can already imagine the stereo typical person.

We are very predictable. MMPI personality test confirms that there are 12 different and distinct personalities. (With leanings that are variable)

Introvert or extrovert
Perceptive or judging
Sensing or feeling

 

[Boaz]

This is a bit off-topic, but I feel like saying it. I don't believe humans are special. We have feelings and inclinations and patterns of behavior, but I don't trust them to point to any truth. When I was younger I had all kinds of strange delusions. I thought the weather depended on my mood. I held my breath when I walked past people I thought were stupid because I was afraid breathing the same air as them would "infect me". At one point I considered the possibility that every day I was never the same person as yesterday, but a copy with all the memories of past copies.

Later I thought I was living in a simulation and aliens were using me as a test subject. Why do all people seem like they fit a "type" that I can predict just by their appearance? Why do I get the feeling things are repeating? Why can I almost predict what people I spend a lot of time around are going to say and do? Maybe the aliens get lazy and copy and paste things. Why not? Other times I'd look in the mirror and not recognize myself. I'd see myself from an "outsiders" perspective, like from some other planet. Why do these thumbs look like ugly, misshapen stumps? What even are "thumbs"? Part of me rationally denied these beliefs, but another just "felt it".

That's were feelings get you. Even now I'm saddled with some hidden beliefs that I know would sound crazy to anybody but myself. From my point of view, Christianity seems like a more focused, group version of that. Of course it feels good and sublime and elevating. A universe with hell is far less terrifying than one without any. That's just my opinion though and I don't expect anybody to agree with it.

We ARE fallen as I said, fallen from what we were created to be. Corrupted if you will, contamnated. Before the fall we were individuals and after the fall we are still individual. Our own feelings and ideas and thoughts, each one like no other. And even if we have been adopted into the kingdot of God through faith in Jesus, we are still in this fallen state living in this fallen world only we have a Helper indwelling, us the Holy Spirit. He will carry us through this part of our journey and bring us safely home where there are no more tears, and there is no sin. Back where we always belonged.