A look at 1 John 3.6

[MisterE]

1 John 3.6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

There it is, those who abide in him do not sin. Can this be true of us?

Most translations add something close to "whosoever abides in him does not CONTINUE to sin."

I've been sinning for 66 years so I hope there is an alternate understanding of this text. There is.

By adding CONTINUE to sin you take away from John's method of writing. John uses opposites all the time, such as light/dark, sin/righteousness, life/death, etc. The solution to the apparent dilemma is known as Positional Truth. To abide "in him" is a reference to being in fellowship. When we are in fellowship and then sin, we are out of fellowship and must confess that sin to restore our fellowship with Christ.

When we are "in him" we are said to be in fellowship. We continue in fellowship until we knowingly sin. But we can not sin "in him" (in fellowship). What happens is told to us by James. Let's look at how James handles this:

1.14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires 1.15 Then when desire conceives, it give birth to sin...

When a believer is in fellowship, the only way he can sin is if he is lured out of the light of fellowship (in him) and into darkness. This is when he can sin. When he is in fellowship and abides in his new nature, he can not sin. He has to be lured out first before he is capable of sinning. So, John is saying that we can not sin at all, not that we can not keep on sinning. Note also in vs 5 where we are told that in him is no sin (not continually sinning, but sin).

I wrote a long article our here (or in some other forum) that dealt with Positional Truth. I there explain in more details what Position Truth is. For example, Paul says in Eph that we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies. We are not actually in heaven, but by virtue of Position Truth we enjoy all the benefits now, so much so that Paul says were ARE in heaven seated with Christ.

 

[Free]

1 John 3.6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

There it is, those who abide in him do not sin. Can this be true of us?

Most translations add something close to "whosoever abides in him does not CONTINUE to sin."

I've been sinning for 66 years so I hope there is an alternate understanding of this text. There is.

By adding CONTINUE to sin you take away from John's method of writing. John uses opposites all the time, such as light/dark, sin/righteousness, life/death, etc. The solution to the apparent dilemma is known as Positional Truth. To abide "in him" is a reference to being in fellowship. When we are in fellowship and then sin, we are out of fellowship and must confess that sin to restore our fellowship with Christ.

Translations such as the ESV are more true to what John actually writes:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.(ESV)

The issue is one of Greek grammar, with "sinning" being in the present tense, meaning an action that is ongoing. What John is speaking of isn't the heresy of sinless perfection, but rather he is speaking of one whose life is characterized by ongoing, habitual, willful, unrepentant sin.

 

[MisterE]

Translations such as the ESV are more true to what John actually writes:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.(ESV)

The issue is one of Greek grammar, with "sinning" being in the present tense, meaning an action that is ongoing. What John is speaking of isn't the heresy of sinless perfection, but rather he is speaking of one whose life is characterized by ongoing, habitual, willful, unrepentant sin.

Yes, and that is exactly what I am saying is not the case. The idea is not that we can't continually sin, but that we can't sin at all "in him." This is more in keeping with John's writing style, not just in this epistle, but also in his Gospel. Polar opposites is how he writes. But as you could see in my OP, I don't see it the way you are presenting it.

 

[Free]

Yes, and that is exactly what I am saying is not the case. The idea is not that we can't continually sin, but that we can't sin at all "in him." This is more in keeping with John's writing style, not just in this epistle, but also in his Gospel. Polar opposites is how he writes. But as you could see in my OP, I don't see it the way you are presenting it.

You can disagree, but you have to deal with John’s grammar, which is speaking of someone who “keeps on sinning.” Nowhere does John, or anyone else, make the case ‘that we can’t sin at all “in him”,’ if by that you mean Christians are automatically perfectly sinless for all, sinning no more in this life. Some clarification on what you mean would be helpful. Much of the NT is addressed to sin being committed by believers, but we are continually exhorted to stop and pursue holiness.

 

[MisterE]

You can disagree, but you have to deal with John’s grammar, which is speaking of someone who “keeps on sinning.” Nowhere does John, or anyone else, make the case ‘that we can’t sin at all “in him”,’ if by that you mean Christians are automatically perfectly sinless for all, sinning no more in this life. Some clarification on what you mean would be helpful. Much of the NT is addressed to sin being committed by believers, but we are continually exhorted to stop and pursue holiness.

Read Rom 7.17 for clarification. I am in good company with the Apostle Paul.

 

[Free]

Read Rom 7.17 for clarification. I am in good company with the Apostle Paul.

I read it. What does it clarify? How are you in good company with Paul and what does it have to do with what John stated in 1 John 3:6?

 

[MisterE]

I read it. What does it clarify? How are you in good company with Paul and what does it have to do with what John stated in 1 John 3:6?

Rom 7.17 - 7:20 refers to the time Paul is a Christian, he regularly sins, in fact, it characterizes his life. 1 John 3.6 does not mean one who 'continually sins.' The Present Tense does not mean CONTINUALLY sins. Do you interpret all Present Tense Verbs as CONTINUALLY do x? Other grammatical intrusions need to be present to give the idea of CONTINUALLY do x.

Matt 26.40
he continually comes to the disciples and continually finds them sleeping, and he continually keeps on saying...

The Present Tense has many uses, even an event that happens only once.

 

[Hopeful 2]

1 John 3.6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

There it is, those who abide in him do not sin. Can this be true of us?

Absolutely true, for all men.

Most translations add something close to "whosoever abides in him does not CONTINUE to sin."

The end result is the same in both versions you cite.
A true turn from sin is manifested thereby.

I've been sinning for 66 years so I hope there is an alternate understanding of this text. There is.

By adding CONTINUE to sin you take away from John's method of writing. John uses opposites all the time, such as light/dark, sin/righteousness, life/death, etc. The solution to the apparent dilemma is known as Positional Truth. To abide "in him" is a reference to being in fellowship. When we are in fellowship and then sin, we are out of fellowship and must confess that sin to restore our fellowship with Christ.

When we are "in him" we are said to be in fellowship. We continue in fellowship until we knowingly sin. But we can not sin "in him" (in fellowship). What happens is told to us by James. Let's look at how James handles this:

1.14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires 1.15 Then when desire conceives, it give birth to sin...

When a believer is in fellowship, the only way he can sin is if he is lured out of the light of fellowship (in him) and into darkness. This is when he can sin. When he is in fellowship and abides in his new nature, he can not sin. He has to be lured out first before he is capable of sinning. So, John is saying that we can not sin at all, not that we can not keep on sinning. Note also in vs 5 where we are told that in him is no sin (not continually sinning, but sin).

I wrote a long article our here (or in some other forum) that dealt with Positional Truth. I there explain in more details what Position Truth is. For example, Paul says in Eph that we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies. We are not actually in heaven, but by virtue of Position Truth we enjoy all the benefits now, so much so that Paul says were ARE in heaven seated with Christ.

Fig trees cannot bear grapes.
Who is our Progenitor ?

 

[Free]

Rom 7.17 - 7:20 refers to the time Paul is a Christian, he regularly sins, in fact, it characterizes his life. 1 John 3.6 does not mean one who 'continually sins.' The Present Tense does not mean CONTINUALLY sins. Do you interpret all Present Tense Verbs as CONTINUALLY do x? Other grammatical intrusions need to be present to give the idea of CONTINUALLY do x.

Matt 26.40
he continually comes to the disciples and continually finds them sleeping, and he continually keeps on saying...

The Present Tense has many uses, even an event that happens only once.

That's misunderstanding the present tense. For Matt 26:40, it is better understood as: 'And he is coming to the disciples and is finding them sleeping, and he is saying to Peter, "So, are you not able to stay awake with me one hour?"' It's speaking of past events using the present tense, as though Matthew is describing what was happening at the actual moment those events occurred.

So, for 1 John 3:6, we can also translate it as: "No one who abides in him is sinning; no one who is sinning has either seen him or known him." But, unlike in Matthew 26:40, John is talking about a current state of affairs, it is what is happening. Hence, why the ESV correctly has 1 John 3:6 as "keeps on sinning."

 

[MisterE]

That's misunderstanding the present tense. For Matt 26:40, it is better understood as: 'And he is coming to the disciples and is finding them sleeping, and he is saying to Peter, "So, are you not able to stay awake with me one hour?"' It's speaking of past events using the present tense, as though Matthew is describing what was happening at the actual moment those events occurred.

So, for 1 John 3:6, we can also translate it as: "No one who abides in him is sinning; no one who is sinning has either seen him or known him." But, unlike in Matthew 26:40, John is talking about a current state of affairs, it is what is happening. Hence, why the ESV correctly has 1 John 3:6 as "keeps on sinning."

The correct translation of Matt 26.40 is: "he came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and he said..."

What you probably don't know is that there are many different kinds of Present Tenses. The Matt 26.40 is what is called the Historic Present. This can be confirmed in any Advanced Greek Grammar Book. Other Present tenses are the Instantaneous Present (aso called the Aoristic Present), the Progressive Present or Descriptive Present, the Iterative Present, Customary Present or the Habitual Present, Gnomic Present, the Historic or Dramatic Present, the Perfective Present, the Conative or Voluntative Present, Futureistic Present, etc...

Your comment to me and your translation indicates to me that you are not a Greek student, perhaps you have read a commentary in which an author talks about the Present tense. You of all people should be very careful when you correct a Greek student on grammar. Why? Because you are a Lead Admin and people may take your word at something you say even if you don't understand the original language of NT Greek.

I am not trying to embarrass you, not am I mad at you, just be very careful not to instruct your members on areas you are not trained in but read a book or two on it. I joined here so I could get honest and good feedback on some of my positions. As you can see from the above, learning just the Present tense of NT Greek can be very challenging. It takes a tremendous amount of personal reading of the Greek of the LXX and the NT. Sorry if you are offended, if you are, let me apologized right now.

 

[live2blive]

1 John 3.6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

There it is, those who abide in him do not sin. Can this be true of us?

Most translations add something close to "whosoever abides in him does not CONTINUE to sin."

I've been sinning for 66 years so I hope there is an alternate understanding of this text. There is.

By adding CONTINUE to sin you take away from John's method of writing. John uses opposites all the time, such as light/dark, sin/righteousness, life/death, etc. The solution to the apparent dilemma is known as Positional Truth. To abide "in him" is a reference to being in fellowship. When we are in fellowship and then sin, we are out of fellowship and must confess that sin to restore our fellowship with Christ.

When we are "in him" we are said to be in fellowship. We continue in fellowship until we knowingly sin. But we can not sin "in him" (in fellowship). What happens is told to us by James. Let's look at how James handles this:

1.14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires 1.15 Then when desire conceives, it give birth to sin...

When a believer is in fellowship, the only way he can sin is if he is lured out of the light of fellowship (in him) and into darkness. This is when he can sin. When he is in fellowship and abides in his new nature, he can not sin. He has to be lured out first before he is capable of sinning. So, John is saying that we can not sin at all, not that we can not keep on sinning. Note also in vs 5 where we are told that in him is no sin (not continually sinning, but sin).

I wrote a long article our here (or in some other forum) that dealt with Positional Truth. I there explain in more details what Position Truth is. For example, Paul says in Eph that we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies. We are not actually in heaven, but by virtue of Position Truth we enjoy all the benefits now, so much so that Paul says were ARE in heaven seated with Christ.

The Savior said, "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Free from what? Free from sin (John 8:31-36). John testifies that what the Savior promissed came to pass, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6). If some Christians sin, it means they don't know Him.

 

[Free]

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6). If some Christians sin, it means they don't know Him.

That is exactly what John isn’t saying. That is the heresy of sinless perfectionism.

 

[Free]

The correct translation of Matt 26.40 is: "he came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and he said..."

Yes, I know. That’s because translating it as a historical present tense would make it awkward in English.

What you probably don't know is that there are many different kinds of Present Tenses. The Matt 26.40 is what is called the Historic Present. This can be confirmed in any Advanced Greek Grammar Book.

It’s also in English. Regardless, the historical present tense supports what I said.

‘Historical Present

This use of the present tense is for emphasis of action wherein a past event is described in the present tense:
"Now in those days John the Baptist παραγίνεται(paraginetai) came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, ." (Matthew 3:1).
Here in this passage, the actual wording in the English text (NAS) is "came," but the literal translation is "comes" thus emphasizing John's action of coming and preaching in the wilderness.’

https://www.blueletterbible.org/resources/grammars/greek/simplified-greek/greek-verbs-pt1.cfm

Other Present tenses are the Instantaneous Present (aso called the Aoristic Present), the Progressive Present or Descriptive Present, the Iterative Present, Customary Present or the Habitual Present, Gnomic Present, the Historic or Dramatic Present, the Perfective Present, the Conative or Voluntative Present, Futureistic Present, etc...

Your comment to me and your translation indicates to me that you are not a Greek student, perhaps you have read a commentary in which an author talks about the Present tense. You of all people should be very careful when you correct a Greek student on grammar.

No, I am not a Greek student, as such. When it comes to the Greek, I look at numerous sources. In this case, in addition to my sources, the ESV translation committee also backs up what I have stated. In the very least, it is a legitimate translation of 1 John 3:6, supported by 1 John 1:9 and 2:1.

Why? Because you are a Lead Admin and people may take your word at something you say even if you don't understand the original language of NT Greek.

Being lead admin has no bearing on whether or not what I say is theologically correct.

I am not trying to embarrass you, not am I mad at you, just be very careful not to instruct your members on areas you are not trained in but read a book or two on it. I joined here so I could get honest and good feedback on some of my positions. As you can see from the above, learning just the Present tense of NT Greek can be very challenging. It takes a tremendous amount of personal reading of the Greek of the LXX and the NT. Sorry if you are offended, if you are, let me apologized right now.

I’m not offended at all.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Savior said, "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Free from what? Free from sin (John 8:31-36). John testifies that what the Savior promissed came to pass, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6). If some Christians sin, it means they don't know Him.

Welcome to the site.
That first post put you on my Christmas card list !

 

[live2blive]

Welcome to the site.
That first post put you on my Christmas card list !

Thank you for your kind welcome!

 

[live2blive]

That is exactly what John isn’t saying. That is the heresy of sinless perfectionism.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9).

John says that who is born of God cannot sin. Is this the heresy of sinless perfectionism?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9).

John says that who is born of God cannot sin. Is this the heresy of sinless perfectionism?

Greetings, live2blive.

If you could, his seed is the word. How does the word enable us to never sin again?

 

[Free]

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9).

John says that who is born of God cannot sin. Is this the heresy of sinless perfectionism?

The proper understanding is given by the ESV:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (ESV)

Even if one wants to dispute that translation, John has already said believers sin, in 1:9 and 2:1, and then again says that believers sin in 5:16.

Not to mention that a majority of the NT either addresses issues of sin with believers or encourages believers to not sim, which is utterly meaningless if believers actually cannot sin.

I don’t see how anyone can read the NT and come away understanding that Christians don’t ever sin again, that even one sin is a sign of an unbeliever. That is absolutely unbiblical.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The proper understanding is given by the ESV:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (ESV)

Even if one wants to dispute that translation, John has already said believers sin, in 1:9 and 2:1, and then again says that believers sin in 5:16.

Not to mention that a majority of the NT either addresses issues of sin with believers or encourages believers to not sim, which is utterly meaningless if believers actually cannot sin.

I don’t see how anyone can read the NT and come away understanding that Christians don’t ever sin again, that even one sin is a sign of an unbeliever. That is absolutely unbiblical.

Are Christians "in Christ" ? Yes.
Is there sin "in Christ" ? No.
If one is in Christ, there can be no sin in/on them.

 

[MisterE]

Yes, I know. That’s because translating it as a historical present tense would make it awkward in English.


It’s also in English. Regardless, the historical present tense supports what I said.

‘Historical Present

This use of the present tense is for emphasis of action wherein a past event is described in the present tense:
"Now in those days John the Baptist παραγίνεται(paraginetai) came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, ." (Matthew 3:1).
Here in this passage, the actual wording in the English text (NAS) is "came," but the literal translation is "comes" thus emphasizing John's action of coming and preaching in the wilderness.’

https://www.blueletterbible.org/resources/grammars/greek/simplified-greek/greek-verbs-pt1.cfm


No, I am not a Greek student, as such. When it comes to the Greek, I look at numerous sources. In this case, in addition to my sources, the ESV translation committee also backs up what I have stated. In the very least, it is a legitimate translation of 1 John 3:6, supported by 1 John 1:9 and 2:1.


Being lead admin has no bearing on whether or not what I say is theologically correct.


I’m not offended at all.

The correct translation of Matt 26.40 is: "he came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and he said..."

You said: Yes, I know. That’s because translating it as a historical present tense would make it awkward in English.

I don't want to teach you Greek since you admit you are not a Greek Student, but I did want to clarify your statement here. No, not because it would make it awkward in English. This IS translated as a Historical Present. Using the past tense verbs IS the Historic Present way of translating it. Don't let the word Present fool you.

I would recommend you get Mounce's Greek NT Basics and also Wallace's Greek Grammar beyond the Basics. I think you have the desire to learn more and more and it won't take you that long to better acclimate yourself to the Greek. That way, when you check your Greek sources, you will better understand what they mean. I am glad you were not offended, I just like to tell people to learn the Greek because if you read these two books, you will be able to study any commentaries.