A look at 1 John 3.6

[live2blive]

Greetings, live2blive.

If you could, his seed is the word. How does the word enable us to never sin again?

Greetings.

His seed can be the word but it is also the Holy Spirit. If you look at the definition of "seed" in Strong's Concordance, you will find, among others, "of divine energy of the Holy Spirit operating within the soul by which we are regenerated". Holy Spirit enables the true believer to do what is pleasing to God (Ezekiel 36:26, Phillipians 2:13).

 

[live2blive]

The proper understanding is given by the ESV:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (ESV)

Even if one wants to dispute that translation, John has already said believers sin, in 1:9 and 2:1, and then again says that believers sin in 5:16.

Not to mention that a majority of the NT either addresses issues of sin with believers or encourages believers to not sim, which is utterly meaningless if believers actually cannot sin.

I don’t see how anyone can read the NT and come away understanding that Christians don’t ever sin again, that even one sin is a sign of an unbeliever. That is absolutely unbiblical.

ESV translates like that in an attemp to explain these seemingly contradictory verses. It is an interpretation rather than proper translation. There is an explanation which is supported by the Law and Prophets (Isaiah 8:20) and the pattern of the Tabernacle (Hebrews 8:5). The short and simple explanation is that not all believers are born of God.

 

[Free]

You said: Yes, I know. That’s because translating it as a historical present tense would make it awkward in English.

I don't want to teach you Greek since you admit you are not a Greek Student, but I did want to clarify your statement here. No, not because it would make it awkward in English. This IS translated as a Historical Present. Using the past tense verbs IS the Historic Present way of translating it. Don't let the word Present fool you.

So, the link I provided is wrong then? Perhaps it just isn't clear enough. Another site I found does say:

"In English we have to translate the Greek present tense verbs here as past in order to faithfully represent the time reference of the Greek text. This is what linguists and grammarians call the Historical Present: the present tense used in a context where its time reference is controlled by another word or phrase in the immediate context that demands past time."

https://hellenisticgreek.com/22.html

I would recommend you get Mounce's Greek NT Basics and also Wallace's Greek Grammar beyond the Basics. I think you have the desire to learn more and more and it won't take you that long to better acclimate yourself to the Greek. That way, when you check your Greek sources, you will better understand what they mean. I am glad you were not offended, I just like to tell people to learn the Greek because if you read these two books, you will be able to study any commentaries.

Already have Mounce's books, but nothing from Wallace. THIS actually looks like a good option to help go through Mounce's books. I almost took Greek, but had to quit school to work. It would have been easier when I was younger.

However, regarding 1 John 3:6, is A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament wrong? Is M. R. Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament wrong? Is the ESV translation committee wrong? Is every koine Greek learning website I look up and says the same about translating a present/historical present also wrong?

It's easy to see why Matt 26:40 and others are translated as simple past tense, because the context demands it. However, the context of 1 John 3:6 is different. He is not describing actions that happened in the past, but the actions of believers, which has applicability through time for all believers.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Greetings.

His seed can be the word but it is also the Holy Spirit. If you look at the definition of "seed" in Strong's Concordance, you will find, among others, "of divine energy of the Holy Spirit operating within the soul by which we are regenerated". Holy Spirit enables the true believer to do what is pleasing to God (Ezekiel 36:26, Phillipians 2:13).

Well you see, this is why I asked. There is ample evidence from scripture that the metaphor of the seed is used of the word, from Jesus, from Peter, etc. Nowhere I know of is the seed used metaphorically to describe the Holy Spirit, so more proper exegesis - or what scholarship word refer to as "the natural reading" - suggests John was talking here about the word.

If so, how would you say the word causes us to never sin again?

 

[Free]

ESV translates like that in an attemp to explain these seemingly contradictory verses. It is an interpretation rather than proper translation. There is an explanation which is supported by the Law and Prophets (Isaiah 8:20) and the pattern of the Tabernacle (Hebrews 8:5). The short and simple explanation is that not all believers are born of God.

No, the ESV's translation is a legitimate translation, particularly given the context. You can call it an interpretation, but every translation is an interpretation. Every translation committee has to make decisions about how things are to be translated.

"Not all believers are born of God" is not a biblical concept. Believers are, by definition, those who have put their faith in Christ, are born of God, and are his children.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Well you see, this is why I asked. There is ample evidence from scripture that the metaphor of the seed is used of the word, from Jesus, from Peter, etc. Nowhere I know of is the seed used metaphorically to describe the Holy Spirit, so more proper exegesis - or what scholarship word refer to as "the natural reading" - suggests John was talking here about the word.

If so, how would you say the word causes us to never sin again?

Having once been born of Adam's seed, we are reborn of God's seed, and can no longer bring forth the fruit of Adam.
The reborn can only bring forth the fruit of God.
Sometimes a seed is just a seed.

 

[MisterE]

However, regarding 1 John 3:6, is A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament wrong? Is M. R. Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament wrong? Is the ESV translation committee wrong? Is every koine Greek learning website I look up and says the same about translating a present/historical present also wrong?

No. Remember I said there are many categories of Present Tenses. 1 John 3.6 is the Gnomic Present, not the Historic Present. The Gnomic does not say that something IS HAPPENING, but that something DOES happen.

If I said in an earlier post that 1 John 3.6 is the Historic Present, I am sorry!!! I've been known to do that sometimes.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Sometimes a seed is just a seed.

Not in 1st John.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There it is, those who abide in him do not sin. Can this be true of us?

It is also written in 1 Jn. 1:8 - " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." See, that covers both the present and the past! That and the black-and-white statement in 1 Jn. 3:6 can't both be true, can they. As others have pointed out, this is mostly a translation issue, it's not just sinning in general, but engaging in sinful activities willingly, consciously and habitually, still behaving as your old self with no meaningful inner transformation.

 

[live2blive]

Well you see, this is why I asked. There is ample evidence from scripture that the metaphor of the seed is used of the word, from Jesus, from Peter, etc. Nowhere I know of is the seed used metaphorically to describe the Holy Spirit, so more proper exegesis - or what scholarship word refer to as "the natural reading" - suggests John was talking here about the word.

If so, how would you say the word causes us to never sin again?

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Galatians 3:16).

 

[live2blive]

No, the ESV's translation is a legitimate translation, particularly given the context. You can call it an interpretation, but every translation is an interpretation. Every translation committee has to make decisions about how things are to be translated.

"Not all believers are born of God" is not a biblical concept. Believers are, by definition, those who have put their faith in Christ, are born of God, and are his children.

Please look at the parable about sower and the seed. The Savior explains it (Luke 8):

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

In verses 13 and 15 there is a description of two kinds of people who hear the Gospel. Both of them believe, but only the last bears fruit or born of God.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Galatians 3:16).

Simply a reference to literal seed or offspring, yes? When John refers to being "born of God" and then refers to seed, the suggestion is he is making reference to being born again of incorruptible seed through the word that lives and abides forever just as Peter stated, correct?

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9).

 

[live2blive]

Simply a reference to literal seed or offspring, yes? When John refers to being "born of God" and then refers to seed, the suggestion is he is making reference to being born again of incorruptible seed through the word that lives and abides forever just as Peter stated, correct?

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9).

No, this is a reference to the spiritual seed, Christ. The blessings and promises given to Abraham are in Christ. And Christ, the seed, is in the true believers who are born from God:

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me (Galatians 2:20).

 

[Free]

No. Remember I said there are many categories of Present Tenses. 1 John 3.6 is the Gnomic Present, not the Historic Present. The Gnomic does not say that something IS HAPPENING, but that something DOES happen.

If I said in an earlier post that 1 John 3.6 is the Historic Present, I am sorry!!! I've been known to do that sometimes.

And what about it makes it a gnomic present rather than historical present?

 

[Hidden In Him]

No, this is a reference to the spiritual seed, Christ. The blessings and promises given to Abraham are in Christ. And Christ, the seed, is in the true believers who are born from God:

Christ was the literal seed of Abraham, and came from his lineage, and that's what he was referring to in the verse.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Not in 1st John.

The fact that any seed can only bring forth after itself is the thing we should be looking at.
God's seed-word cannot bring forth liars, thieves, or adulterers.
As the seed we have reborn of is God's, 1 John 3:9 is true when it says "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Grape seeds cannot bring forth figs !
Ever !

 

[Hidden In Him]

The fact that any seed can only bring forth after itself is the thing we should be looking at.

No, Hopeful. We need to be skillful at exegesis, so that we accurately apply the written word to our theology. Live2Blive seems to be arguing that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his Holy Spirit remaineth in him," and that is NOT what 1st John 3:9 says. We must take scripture in its immediate context, and in it's related context as seen in parallel passages, which is what I've been doing for him. The passage does not talk about the Holy Spirit, it is talking about the word of God. Once we can agree on the obvious in light of immediate and parallel contexts, we can move on to my question, which is how does the word prevent us from sinning.

 

[live2blive]

Christ was the literal seed of Abraham, and came from his lineage, and that's what he was referring to in the verse.

"he saith not unto seeds, as of many; in the plural number, as if Jews and Gentiles were in a different manner his spiritual seed:

but as of one; using the singular number:

and to thy seed, which is Christ; meaning not Christ personal, though he was of the seed of Abraham, a son of his, as was promised; but the covenant and the promises were not now made with, and to Christ, as personally considered, this was done in eternity; but Christ mystical, the church, which is the body of Christ, of which he is the head, and is called by his name, 1 Corinthians 12:12 and designs all Abraham's spiritual seed, both Jews and Gentiles; who are all one in Christ, and so Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise"

Gills exposition of the Bible

 

[Hidden In Him]

"he saith not unto seeds, as of many; in the plural number, as if Jews and Gentiles were in a different manner his spiritual seed:

but as of one; using the singular number:

and to thy seed, which is Christ; meaning not Christ personal, though he was of the seed of Abraham, a son of his, as was promised; but the covenant and the promises were not now made with, and to Christ, as personally considered, this was done in eternity; but Christ mystical, the church, which is the body of Christ, of which he is the head, and is called by his name, 1 Corinthians 12:12 and designs all Abraham's spiritual seed, both Jews and Gentiles; who are all one in Christ, and so Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise"

Gills exposition of the Bible

Yes, but now you have the verse reading, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his Holy Spirit and the mystical body of Christ remaineth in him, and he cannot sin." Are you sure you wanna go with that reading?

 

[live2blive]

Rom 7.17 - 7:20 refers to the time Paul is a Christian, he regularly sins, in fact, it characterizes his life.

Many Christians think that all believers continue to sin based on Paul’s description of himself in Romans the 7th chapter. However, this comes from not “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2nd Timothy 2:15).

In Romans the 7th chapter, Paul is describing the state of his soul BEFORE he became a believer in Christ, BEFORE he received the Holy Spirit. In Romans the 7th chapter, Paul describes that a natural man (not a true believer in Christ) has two natures or laws. Before we receive the Holy Spirit, the Satanic Spirit or Mystery of Iniquity ("law of sin") rules our conscience and suppresses the "still small voice" of God everyone is born with, thereby causing the soul to sin (please self). These two natures or laws are at war with each other. This was a state of Paul’s heart under the Old Covenant, BEFORE he experienced the revelation of Christ and became converted or born again (Acts 9:1-18).

What happened after his conversion, Paul described in the beginning of the 8th chapter of Romans:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(Romans 8:1,2).

"Now" in Romans the 8th chapter is contrasted to Romans the 7th chapter where Paul describes himself in the former state of sin and condemnation under the Old Covenant. Now Paul is not under sin anymore! He confirms this transition in Romans 6:17,18:

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

When the Gospel is preached and a person receives the revelation of Christ, the Holy Spirit moves out the Satanic Spirit (which was shown by the Savior in the flesh casting out demons from men - Luke 8:7-39). The Holy Spirit frees this person from the law of sin, gives a new heart or God's Love, thereby making him obedient to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ (Ezekiel 36:26,27). The Holy Spirit illuminates the conscience or soul with understanding of God's purpose and His Love; thereby such a believer has a converted soul or is born again, and his desire becomes to please the Creator.