A mortal God?

[AlexBC]

I often find it difficult to reconcile the depictions of "miracles" in the Bible with the lack of said miracles in the modern world.

I look for miracles and people give me examples that can be explained without invoking God. You'd think that we'd be given miracles that would impress a people who are pretty indifferent to things like going to the Moon!

What i'm getting at here is whether a case can be made for whether or not God still exists. Are we living in his creation but without the creator? Why is he keeping such a low profile if he still lives?

 

[Atothetheist]

Well, a case can be made for deism in the modern world, but not for theism.

If any other person comments to the differ. Ask them if they had a personal miracle. If they did, as, thm what made them SO special that the overwhelming Majority of the Africans starving will NEVER get the chance to leave the poverty striken country. ( this is to be asked when somebody replies with "He helped with taxes, etc.)

The lack of divine itervention of a God when millions are suffering, by no fault of there own is clearly telling of the situtation...

But, Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. ( or so say the theists.)

 

[AlexBC]

Well, a case can be made for deism in the modern world, but not for theism.

If any other person comments to the differ. Ask them if they had a personal miracle. If they did, as, thm what made them SO special that the overwhelming Majority of the Africans starving will NEVER get the chance to leave the poverty striken country. ( this is to be asked when somebody replies with "He helped with taxes, etc.)

The lack of divine itervention of a God when millions are suffering, by no fault of there own is clearly telling of the situtation...

But, Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. ( or so say the theists.)

I would not describe myself as a Deist. I honestly find it harder and harder to describe myself as a Christian these days. The more I read, the more I see just makes it harder and harder to justify what I was told to believe.

 

[Atothetheist]

I would not describe myself as a Deist. I honestly find it harder and harder to describe myself as a Christian these days. The more I read, the more I see just makes it harder and harder to justify what I was told to believe.

Heres the problem with religion, take islam for instance. It flatly contridicts science in many things ( the creation, how man formed,etc), and it claims to know that there is a God, and that they know what the God commands of you.

It claims knowledge of what it can't.

I never said you were a Deist. I was just remarking on how If you think there was a God, Deism is a more logical, and humbler choice.

The world looks, and acts as if there was nothing watching over it, making sure justice is in order. Nine million children( under five) die a year. Thousands die of illnesses, not enough food, etc.

It is hard to reconcile a theistic deity( especially an all good, loving one) with this harsh reality.

 

[Jman96]

So you expect people to never get sick, die, and just fill up the earth until we pollute it enough to kill ourselves?

Wait? Huh? What are you referring to? I assume your jumping religions

 

[evenifigoalone]

Good question.
If you notice, miracles were not an everyday occurrence in Bible times, either. They happened in extreme circumstances (and not all extreme circumstances, either), usually, or during times like Jesus' ministry on Earth. (Also, I Corinthians 1:22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:". The reason Jesus did miracles, then, was probably because that's what it took.)


Any "personal miracles" I have experienced did not result in my problems being fixed all better, but they resulted in me having peace about it and helped to introduce me to a side of God I had never seen before. Personally, these experiences, in the end, served to strengthen my faith rather than tear it down as they could have.


And I'll say this--I can understand the Atheist POV. I understand the thinking behind it. It's not wrong to think that maybe they're right. I think I almost turned Agnostic at one point--I'm not sorry.
There are plenty of resources, though, that are around to provide counter-arguments as well.
For instance, on the existence of evil--http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/criticisms_evil_suffering.html

 

[Atothetheist]

So you expect people to never get sick, die, and just fill up the earth until we pollute it enough to kill ourselves?

I never said that.

Good, innocent people die, get maligantly sick, everyday. Children die. Where is the justice, the goodness in that? People of old age can die, they have lived a long life.

God apearently created the requirements for pollution, just as he did for illnesses, and destruction.

God COULD have made it so that pollution never existed, and doesn't exist. Same for illness, and other bad things.

If I hadn't known better, I would have called you out on a strawman.

 

[Atothetheist]

So you expect people to never get sick, die, and just fill up the earth until we pollute it enough to kill ourselves?

Wait? Huh? What are you referring to? I assume your jumping religions

I was avoiding putting down christianity, because then I would get banned.

 

[Atothetheist]

Good question.
If you notice, miracles were not an everyday occurrence in Bible times, either. They happened in extreme circumstances (and not all extreme circumstances, either), usually, or during times like Jesus' ministry on Earth. (Also, I Corinthians 1:22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:". The reason Jesus did miracles, then, was probably because that's what it took.)


Any "personal miracles" I have experienced did not result in my problems being fixed all better, but they resulted in me having peace about it and helped to introduce me to a side of God I had never seen before. Personally, these experiences, in the end, served to strengthen my faith rather than tear it down as they could have.


And I'll say this--I can understand the Atheist POV. I understand the thinking behind it. It's not wrong to think that maybe they're right. I think I almost turned Agnostic at one point--I'm not sorry.
There are plenty of resources, though, that are around to provide counter-arguments as well.

Why do you think God chose you to get personal miracles, when there are people who need miracles more than you?

The problem of evil is a fantastic problem, beause God COULD have created a universe where EVIL doesn't need to be necessary. Remember, God is all powerful, the sky is the limit.

 

[Jman96]

Why do you think God chose you to get personal miracles, when there are people who need miracles more than you?

He is part of Gods plan! Why would you go so low to question Gods plan? You should not worry about this type of stuff anyways. You know you are only here to debate, so stop trying and why don't you be part of Gods plan that he has lined up for you and just listen. I bet he has something miraculous he is trying to say to you.

 

[evenifigoalone]

He didn't. The opportunity was just there...and I think it is there for everyone at some point, when they need it most. Whether they choose to accept it or not is another matter.

Yes, problems exist in the world. But there are plenty of testimonies of people finding comfort and peace from God, in the worst of times. Corry Ten Boom, who suffered in concentration camps during the Holocaust for helping Jews to escape it (she later wrote a book about it, The Hiding Place), is one of many examples.
There are also accounts of miracles in some cases, but I can't think of one right now.

 

[Atothetheist]

He is part of Gods plan! Why would you go so low to question Gods plan? You should not worry about this type of stuff anyways. You know you are only here to debate, so stop trying and why don't you be part of Gods plan that he has lined up for you and just listen. I bet he has something miraculous he is trying to say to you.

Useless assumptions.

First, you have to prove there is a God, and then a plan, and then you have to prove I am of use to such plan.

Notice, you get defensive when I ask ANOTHER USER a honest question.

 

[evenifigoalone]

The problem of evil is a fantastic problem, beause God COULD have created a universe where EVIL doesn't need to be necessary. Remember, God is all powerful, the sky is the limit.

I provided a link in an edit on my previous post that may interest you.

 

[Atothetheist]

He didn't. The opportunity was just there...and I think it is there for everyone at some point, when they need it most. Whether they choose to accept it or not is another matter.

Yes, problems exist in the world. But there are plenty of testimonies of people finding comfort and peace from God, in the worst of times. Corry Ten Boom, who suffered in concentration camps during the Holocaust for helping Jews to escape it (she later wrote a book about it, The Hiding Place), is one of many examples.
There are also accounts of miracles in some cases, but I can't think of one right now.

There was a women who got raped by her father for twenty plus years. Tell me how a God who is actively watching over ALL of us, couldn't immediatly stop that, or give her a miracle. If God watched ALL of us, he would have seen that women GETTING RAPED for twenty plus years. No miracle. She didn't have the chance to accept anything.

 

[Atothetheist]

I provided a link in an edit on my previous post that may interest you.

Ahh yes, I read it.

It doesn't Rebute the fact that God didn't need evil to exist, he allowed it to.

He is all powerful, He didn't need evil at all.

 

[Jman96]

There was a women who got raped by her father for twenty plus years. Tell me how a God who is actively watching over ALL of us, couldn't immediatly stop that, or give her a miracle. If God watched ALL of us, he would have seen that women GETTING RAPED for twenty plus years. No miracle. She didn't have the chance to accept anything.

Yes, bad thing happen. But what tells you that God is not using this woman now to make a difference, maybe she can help someone else and make a difference through her story. Bad things happen, there is no way They wouldn't God gave us free control and does not lock us up in a world of rules, and because of that we have the option to sin. but if we did not have free control or whatever you want to look at it as, we would not be happy and God wants us to be happy and worship him in many ways. That girl that was hurt and abused as a child, can make a difference with her story, you might see the bad parts, but that is because in our world they sadly weigh more and stand out more than the good stories.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Sometimes things happen. Oftentimes having gone through bad things and circumstances does some good in some way. Maybe it teaches us an important lesson. Maybe it helps us to be able to help others, because we've been there, too. There are even people who found God through these circumstances. Something.

I get what you are saying. I've pondered this thing before. I've come to accept that sometimes there are things beyond my comprehension. I may be an adult (well, young adult), but compared to a Being with infinite knowledge...I'm just a kid.
I've had enough personal proof in my own life to prove to me that not only is there a God, but that there is a God who seeks a personal relationship with us humans. This is what kept me from going away from Christianity.
Otherwise, arguments like the kind you have would have pulled me away. There are answers to those arguments, but I didn't discover a lot of them until months or years later.

I don't expect you to convert based on anecdotal evidence, though.

 

[Atothetheist]

Yes, bad thing happen. But what tells you that God is not using this woman now to make a difference, maybe she can help someone else and make a difference through her story. Bad things happen, there is no way They wouldn't God gave us free control and does not lock us up in a world of rules, and because of that we have the option to sin. but if we did not have free control or whatever you want to look at it as, we would not be happy and God wants us to be happy and worship him in many ways. That girl that was hurt and abused as a child, can make a difference with her story, you might see the bad parts, but that is because in our world they sadly weigh more and stand out more than the good stories.

She died, giving birth to her third incetious child.

Was the whole point of her suffering, because other could learn a lesson out of it? An innocent, niave, girl, who was born, assumingly God gave them the baby, into that type of family, completely out of her hands.

And then she gets raped, and raped, and raped... By her father. Was this seriously all about having other people learn a lesson from a seemingly innocent girl, who didn't deserve it?

Is this the best you can come up with?

Again, God IS all powerful, he could have made it so you can have free will, and not evil.

Choosing between veggies, or meat for lunch isn't a choice between good and evil.

 

[Grazer]

The issue of evil and suffering is a massive one, it's one that affects people regardless of belief. Christians have the additional problem because we believe in a loving God. How do the 2 reconcile? It is a very difficult and legitimate question. Why does God allow suffering? People who are far more intelligent than I am have dedicated their careers looking at this and still have barely scratched the surface. You could say "well there is no God" but all you've done is solve the intellectual problem, you're still left with the actual problem of suffering. I don't see how atheism actually offers any kind of hope, especially if you go as far as Professor Richard Dawkins does;

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, and other people are going to get lucky; and you won't find any rhyme or reason to it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is at the bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good. Nothing but blind pitiless indifference. DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is, and we dance to its music. - Out of Eden

I know Professor Dawkins doesn't speak for all atheists and I am interested if any atheists here agree with the above conclusion of the world.

There's a debate available between Professor Gideon Rose and Professor John Lennox on the issue of suffering. Professor Rose puts up some fantastic and well constructed arguments but Professor Lennox is very much equal to him.

[video=youtube;yMT-EdFH5Kc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMT-EdFH5Kc[/video]

This is not an issue that should be trivialised in any way shape or form.

 

[Atothetheist]

Sometimes things happen. Oftentimes having gone through bad things and circumstances does some good in some way. Maybe it teaches us an important lesson. Maybe it helps us to be able to help others, because we've been there, too. There are even people who found God through these circumstances. Something.

I get what you are saying. I've pondered this thing before. I've come to accept that sometimes there are things beyond my comprehension. I may be an adult (well, young adult), but compared to a Being with infinite knowledge...I'm just a kid.
I've had enough personal proof in my own life to prove to me that not only is there a God, but that there is a God who seeks a personal relationship with us humans. This is what kept me from going away from Christianity.
Otherwise, arguments like the kind you have would have pulled me away. There are answers to those arguments, but I didn't discover a lot of them until months or years later.

I don't expect you to convert based on anecdotal evidence, though.

You are right, Anecdotal evidence is useless to me, because I have a friend who believes everytime he leaves his house, he returns to it with it on fire. He says he sees it burning, smells it burning, and even "feels" it burning. That doesn't mean it was burning. Anecdotal evidence isn't a reliable way to find the truth, unless you supplement it with the scientific method, or replication of results.