A new creation...

[chessman]

I'm not sure I really understand what your asking

it was a rhetorical question.

The grammar of the text indicates that it is the believer who is doing the action, not God.

is it not accurate that the nouns in the Greek text of verse 17 are in fact Christ and Creation indicating that Christ (the subject) is doing the creative action?

 

[eddif]

Ezekiel 2:1-2
And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. 2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

It appears it is both. We are told to do the action, but in another place we find Holy Spirit is at work in us to provide power to get the job done (wait till you have received power).

eddif

 

[jonahmano]

We very well know that Adam was made in the image of God and he was filled with the glory of the Lord and in other words it's like Adam's Spirit was the rulers of his and body. Now Adam sinned against God losing the glory of the Lord and his soul (feelings) was the boss. Now Adam's son was born in the image of Adam and

Now what Jesus did was to restore back the position of the spirit of man to be the boss over his soul and body. And this is an ongoing process and it's starts from Day 1 and it an ongoing process.

But Grace preachers will never understand this

 

[jeff77]

I believe you have it correct Jeff. If you look back at verse 15 Paul indicates that it is the believer that is doing the action. In verse 17 the verbs are in the active voice which indicates that the action is being performed by the subject. If this was something that happened to the believer I would expect to find the verbs in the passive voice.

14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co 5:14-17 NKJ)

This action that the believer does is another thing I have been discussing with a friend of mine. We were talking about the role of willpower in overcoming a sin. I think that when we resist the temptation to do our own will and instead do the will of the Father, that is the believer practicing an act of faith by using our willpower. It is something done by us. However, it could not be done if we did not believe that the outcome of what God wants us to do is much better than the outcome of what we want to do. It's kind of like saying that God does not reach down with his hand and force us to not sin. It's up to the believer and that is how we please God.

 

[jonahmano]

This action that the believer does is another thing I have been discussing with a friend of mine. We were talking about the role of willpower in overcoming a sin. I think that when we resist the temptation to do our own will and instead do the will of the Father, that is the believer practicing an act of faith by using our willpower. It is something done by us. However, it could not be done if we did not believe that the outcome of what God wants us to do is much better than the outcome what we want to do. It's kind of like saying that God does not reach down with his hand and force us to not sin. It's up to the believer and that is how we please God.

The problem here is not of using will-power but the problem arises when we boast of our own will power. Yea I kept myself away from the sin. It would be right when we say that I was tempted but I didn't sin; Not because of my will power but by the grace of God and the working of His Spirit in the inner man

 

[jeff77]

The problem here is not of using will-power but the problem arises when we boast of our own will power. Yea I kept myself away from the sin. I was tempted but I didn't sin; Not because of my will power but by the grace of God and the working of His Spirit in the inner man

When I say "will power", the power = the Holy Spirit and the will = God's will for us. Our action is setting aside our "own will".

 

[jeff77]

I forgot to add that Philippians 4:13 is a good verse to support this.

 

[jonahmano]

When I say "will power", the power = the Holy Spirit and the will = God's will for us. Our action is setting aside our "own will".

Very true and that happens only when you have a relationship with the Saviour. Remember the attitude of David when he sinned against God but today's grace preachers teach, it's just as simple to sin and forget cos we are sinning in the light so no need to be sorry

 

[Butch5]

it was a rhetorical question.
is it not accurate that the nouns in the Greek text of verse 17 are in fact Christ and Creation indicating that Christ (the subject) is doing the creative action?

How are you coming to that conclusion?

 

[Butch5]

This action that the believer does is another thing I have been discussing with a friend of mine. We were talking about the role of willpower in overcoming a sin. I think that when we resist the temptation to do our own will and instead do the will of the Father, that is the believer practicing an act of faith by using our willpower. It is something done by us. However, it could not be done if we did not believe that the outcome of what God wants us to do is much better than the outcome of what we want to do. It's kind of like saying that God does not reach down with his hand and force us to not sin. It's up to the believer and that is how we please God.

I think that's pretty much what Paul is saying. I think a lot of Christians think the "new creation" is something that God does to teh believer, but, I don't see anything in the grammar that suggests that God has done this but rather that Paul is admonishing his readers to do so.

 

[chessman]

How are you coming to that conclusion?

Have you looked into this verse's translation anymore? You asked how I came to my conclusion. Here's how. It's a very interesting verse from a translation stand point. It's what caught my attention to your original comment about the verb tenses in this verse. As I understand it, there are no verbs or adverbs in the original text "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation". Creation is a noun, not a verb.

They are added for the sake of correct grammar, I suppose.

If anyone in Christ, new creation!

Is the literal translation of the first part. No verbs at all.

By inserting adverbs, pronouns (someone had to choose the tense/mode) it makes a grammatically correct sentence, but does it overshadow a profound point Paul was intentionally making???? A big fat firm, maybe in my view. That is why I mentioned the nouns in the verse. All the nouns are: Christ and Creation. Thus if there is action taking place (a verb) it's the person of Christ that's doing the action to the thing (creation) which is modified by the adjective (new), as I understand it. Am I wrong?

This is why I prefer the LEB. It's so easy to see the original Greek text within it:

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.

The verbs you spoke of being active are: behold, passed and have come (perfect indicative). We should "behold" new creation from Christ is my view.

 

[agua.]

Have you looked into this verse's translation anymore? You asked how I came to my conclusion. Here's how. It's a very interesting verse from a translation stand point. It's what caught my attention to your original comment about the verb tenses in this verse. As I understand it, there are no verbs or adverbs in the original text "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation". Creation is a noun, not a verb.

They are added for the sake of correct grammar, I suppose.

If anyone in Christ, new creation!

Is the literal translation of the first part. No verbs at all.

By inserting adverbs, pronouns (someone had to choose the tense/mode) it makes a grammatically correct sentence, but does it overshadow a profound point Paul was intentionally making???? A big fat firm, maybe in my view. That is why I mentioned the nouns in the verse. All the nouns are: Christ and Creation. Thus if there is action taking place (a verb) it's the person of Christ that's doing the action to the thing (creation) which is modified by the adjective (new), as I understand it. Am I wrong?

This is why I prefer the LEB. It's so easy to see the original Greek text within it:

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.

The verbs you spoke of being active are: behold, passed and have come (perfect indicative). We should "behold" new creation from Christ is my view.

Interesting !

 

[eddif]

Our human viewpoints can overpower any information we are reading, hearing, seeing, thinking about, interpreting, decoding:
Prose, Poetry, Literal, Figurative, Doctrine

We can be deaf, blind, void of understanding. Jesus could hardly believe the disciples could not understand the kingdom.

If we have an inflated viewpoint of ourselves (the leaven of humanity), we do not see God at work.

If we do not think we have a difference in heart / flesh and mind / spirit; we are either all good or all bad. IMHO Romans 7:25 just does not make any sense outside of divine revelation. And Romans 7:25 is not the only scripture. Rosetta Stone like dual language / concept scriptures are rare.

We tend to change: doctrine, language, viewpoints, to agree with our groups actions / beliefs.

In Christ we are a new creation. We can see: God's viewpoint, mans viewpoint, satan's devices, what is changed in us, what is being changed, what our group believes, what we should believe, etc .

Without the new birth we are really messed up. I have so much to learn yet. I have sought and still seeking. I strive toward the high calling. It is time for the one new man.

eddif

 

[jeff77]

Very true and that happens only when you have a relationship with the Saviour. Remember the attitude of David when he sinned against God but today's grace preachers teach, it's just as simple to sin and forget cos we are sinning in the light so no need to be sorry

I think the words "will power" have become like bad words to some people in the Christian community and secular. I think it should be stressed that the will power is God's and not our own though.

 

[eddif]

I think the words "will power" have become like bad words to some people in the Christian community and secular. I think it should be stressed that the will power is God's and not our own though.

Ezekiel 2:1-2
I have about worn it out lately, but this scripture is His way of working His will in us.

eddif

 

[follower]

"Ezekiel 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.
2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me."

Ezekiel 2 Expanded Bible (EXB)
The Lord Speaks to Ezekiel
2 He said to me, “·Human [T Son of man; C used 93 times in the book to address the prophet; it means “human being” and stresses the frailty of humanity in contrast to the sovereignty of God], stand up on your feet so I may speak with you.” 2 While he spoke to me, ·the Spirit [or a spirit; or a wind] entered me and put me on my feet. Then I heard ·the Lord [L him] speaking to me.

This isn't a new spirit, a born again spirit, a change in Ezekiel's spirit, nor a re-birth.

 

[reba]

I think the words "will power" have become like bad words to some people in the Christian community and secular. I think it should be stressed that the will power is God's and not our own though.

I like your common sense understanding

 

[eddif]

"Ezekiel 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.
2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me."

Ezekiel 2 Expanded Bible (EXB)
The Lord Speaks to Ezekiel
2 He said to me, “·Human [T Son of man; C used 93 times in the book to address the prophet; it means “human being” and stresses the frailty of humanity in contrast to the sovereignty of God], stand up on your feet so I may speak with you.” 2 While he spoke to me, ·the Spirit [or a spirit; or a wind] entered me and put me on my feet. Then I heard ·the Lord [L him] speaking to me.

This isn't a new spirit, a born again spirit, a change in Ezekiel's spirit, nor a re-birth.

If yo look at post 22

Ezekiel 2:1-2
And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. 2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

It appears it is both. We are told to do the action, but in another place we find Holy Spirit is at work in us to provide power to get the job done (wait till you have received power).

eddif

You see in my post the reference to Holy Spirit refers to Pentecost (although no passage is listed).
Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8

I usually use Ruach for the Ezekiel passage.
There is a closeness of the idea IMHO between OT & NT though.

Can I mess up ? Yes. OT I would be stoned. NT I can stand for correction,

Watch me close. I always am open to correction.

eddif

 

[follower]

no worries. almost no one has it right. (just an observation, not hitting someone).

there is a huge difference between old testament believers and new testament. we can't go into here and now for lack of time and space and critics; i have to leave in a minute(s) to a job too....

short answer: Ezekiel wasn't born again, didn't have a re-born spirit. the ekklesia in the N.T. did.
the re-born spirit is not the same as when Yhwh's Ruach breathed on or fell on or filled someone.
the re-born spirit , 'born again' by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and by the will of Yhwh, not of man nor of the flesh, is so rare you might not have yet seen in person anyone who is born again and know it. (there are very obvious differences, visible, including simple testimony of Yeshua HaMashiach and the witness of the Spirit of Yhwh).
i.e. SEEK, YES, totally SEEK ABBA YHWH. He is the Giver of Life and Truth and Joy and All in Yeshua HaMashiach, and only He can open a man's mind to understand any of this (no matter how much if any Scripture they have read or memorized or studied).

 

[agua.]

I think the words "will power" have become like bad words to some people in the Christian community and secular. I think it should be stressed that the will power is God's and not our own though.

Yes true. Also we forget that one evidence of the Spirit in operation in a Christian is self control.

Gal 5:22-23 KJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.