A Personal Relationship with the Lord

[Alabaster]

When Paul quotes Jesus, he is telling the truth.

Oh, thank God! The rest of the time he is lying, eh?

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus is quoted directly in the four Gospels. I don’t know for sure who wrote his words down, but these are direct quotes.

Maybe there was a lingering parrot in a tree nearby, and they got their notes from him.

 

[Alabaster]

I don't know if I completely understand what you're saying here but if I do then I can tell you without any doubt that I am the person you describe.

It was a crisp, cool, clear, still autumn night and I went for a walk. The stars were brilliant and there was a terrific display of the aurora borealis. I had been struggling in my 2nd marriage and pondering my purpose and why I was going through the same nightmare again. I was not saved at the time and God was far from my mind.

As I looked at the sky and considered how awesome, huge, and perfectly planned the universe is it suddenly occurred to me, "This is no accident! My life is not an accident. There is a purpose for me and there can be only one reason for that purpose; to love the creator, God almighty."

That was the day that my life began to change. Not because God was rewarding me in some way but because I came to the realization that I can't do everything on my own, God is in control, and I need my savior. I can take my troubles to Him and he can help me get through.

It wasn't an overnight change. That's why my username here is WIP. It stands for Work In Progress. The closer I get to Jesus, the more relaxed and laid-back I become, which is quite a change from who I used to be. Just ask my wife and kids.

It happened to me as well, coupled with the fresh insight I received about an hour earlier from my Sunday School teachers, the Lord spoke to me in nature and I accepted Jesus on the spot walking home from Daily Vacation Bible School at age 10.

He is beautiful.

God bless you, WIP!

 

[casper]

It happened to me as well, coupled with the fresh insight I received about an hour earlier from my Sunday School teachers, the Lord spoke to me in nature and I accepted Jesus on the spot walking home from Daily Vacation Bible School at age 10.

He is beautiful.

God bless you, WIP!

I have found this debate quite interesting although I don't approve of deavoneye's arrogant nature. I wondered how the word of god could be taught to primitive tribes that have never meet missionaries, especially in the past. Ok I understand that we are all are in 'awe' of nature some times and have this feeling that there must be a God some where. However this feeling just leads primitive people to idolize fake Gods. Don't we have to find Jesus to be saved how can a primitive tribe find Jesus that has never seen a missionary ?.

 

[Alabaster]

I have found this debate quite interesting although I don't approve of deavoneye's arrogant nature. I wondered how the word of god could be taught to primitive tribes that have never meet missionaries, especially in the past. Ok I understand that we are all are in 'awe' of nature some times and have this feeling that there must be a God some where. However this feeling just leads primitive people to idolize fake Gods. Don't we have to find Jesus to be saved how can a primitive tribe find Jesus that has never seen a missionary ?.

They do and have, if you have read any missionary reports.

God says in the word that people are accountable for the revelation they have been given. That puts our modern culture which has the gospel available to us in overload which goes ignored by the truckload on the same playing field as remote villages of primitive people who are hungering and thirsting for meaningful truth.

 

[Alabaster]

The Bible is clear about Jesus being the only way of salvation. He's the only way to have your sins forgiven and attain eternal life.​

• Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6​
• "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12​

Yet, there are people on this planet who have never heard of Jesus. Let's use an example of a native African who lives deep in the jungle who is removed from communication with the rest of the world. This individual will die and face judgment, never having heard the gospel message of forgiveness of sins. Will God find him guilty of breaking His laws and punish him accordingly? How is it fair for God to condemn him to hell never having an opportunity to receive Jesus as his savior?

​

Let's ask the question, why does an individual go to hell? The answer is not because they haven't received Jesus as their savior, but because they've sinned against God. Everyone who goes to hell goes there simply because of their sins. This is an important distinction to make. People who go to heaven, go because of God's grace, people who go to hell, go because of their own sins. We know that the native African has broken God's laws, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 He, therefore, will end up in hell if he doesn't receive forgiveness for his sins. The argument is, "He never had the opportunity for forgiveness!"

​

Let's examine that in light of Scripture. First off, the Bible declares that every single person knows that God exists. We know this because we see all that He has made. We see His creation, the universe, and everything that surrounds us.​

"What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world,
God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen,
being understood from what has been made,
so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19,20

​

They are without excuse. Additionally, even primitive tribes have a concept of right and wrong. This is evidence by the false gods and false religious systems they have in place. Prayers and sacrifices are made to these idols in an attempt to appease this god or gods. Although they don't have the written law of God as revealed in the Bible, God gave them an innate sense of right and wrong, and a conscience has been given to every human being. God gave this to every person, Jew and Gentile alike, as well as to the civilized and uncivilized.

Romans chapter 2 states, "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." Romans 2:12-16

The fact is that all people are accountable to God. The problem is that most people reject what has been revealed to them. Back to Romans chapter 1, "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen." Romans 1:21-25

​

If the native in Africa would respond to the light he has been given, it's my belief that God will get him the gospel of Jesus Christ somehow. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, "But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul."

​

Everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known. God will send a missionary. God will get a Bible into his hand. God will arrange for him to hear the truth of the gospel. Again, the problem is most don't respond to what has already been given to them.

​

If they have rejected creation, inner light and conscience
what makes us think they would respond to further revelation?

​

Yet, we know that some will respond and therefore we are commanded to go. Because we, as Christians, are the means that God uses to draw those people to Himself. Further in the book of Romans we read, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" Romans 10:13-15

​

It's ironic that everyone who raises the question, in the form of an objection, "What happens to the person who has never heard about Jesus?", has heard about Jesus, and is currently rejecting Him. The Bibles teaches that there are degrees of severity in terms of punishment in hell. It will be more unbearable for the one who has heard of Christ and rejected Him, than the one who has received less light. This should terrify those who know the truth and yet remain in rebellion. Please, if have spent any time at all on this website, you know the offer of total forgiveness of your sins through the death of Jesus Christ. You are absolutely without excuse. Please don't reject this offer, repent and put your faith in Christ today. ​

​

Source:​

"What About Those Who Never Hear About Jesus?"

 

[glorydaz]

Amen, Alabaster. We know from the Word that the Gospel is preached to every creature which is under heaven. God has always sent forth "missionaries" to reach them with the message of salvation. Faith has been available to mankind since the beginning of time.

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

I have no doubt the Creator, who knows us before our first breath is taken, is perfectly able to give each man a chance to choose life. "That which may be known of God is manifest in them." These are "clearly seen", and "understood" by the "things that are made" (all of mankind).

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Those who claim they haven't had a chance to believe in God are lying to themselves. Those who claim to not believe in God are actually choosing to reject that which they know in their innermost being. For we are made in the image of God, and God makes Himself known to those He has created.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul, Peter, James, John, and Jude did not have perfect understanding. Jesus did.

Why don't you follow what Jesus said?

When he sent the disciples out, He said, "Whoever will not receive you...shake the very dust from you feet as a TESTIMONY AGAINST THEM."

Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

You should really pray about what you're saying, because Jesus said those who hear the ones He sent, hear HIM, and "he that despiseth you despiseth me". Young's correctly translates "dispiseth" as "putting away". When you deny the truth of those Jesus chose, you deny Him.

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

The apostles are the witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great power came upon them. It's so sad to see a believer doubt those the Lord chose to pen the Holy Scriptures. It denies the power of the Holy Spirit.

And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus is quoted directly in the four Gospels. I don’t know for sure who wrote his words down, but these are direct quotes.

Where did Mark and Luke get direct quotes from Jesus?

The point here, of course, is that ALL of the Apostles' writings legitimately teach the Gospel. I disagree with your take that part of the Bible is "more" infallible than any other section, nor do I agree with the idea that we even have to have the Apostles contradicting each other. It is a matter of incorrect interpretations on your part. IF the first Christians accepted the NT as-is, they apparently thought that there was no apparent contradictions with what was written by them and what was taught by them.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Paul, Peter, James, John, and Jude did not have perfect understanding. Jesus did.

That is not under argument here.

The issue is whether the named apostles understood what Jesus taught well enough and accurately enough to continue His ministry. Jesus HIMSELF guaranteed that they would when He promised them the Holy Spirit to help them remember ALL that He taught. Apparently, you distrust Jesus own words.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

That is not under argument here.

The issue is whether the named apostles understood what Jesus taught well enough and accurately enough to continue His ministry. Jesus HIMSELF guaranteed that they would when He promised them the Holy Spirit to help them remember ALL that He taught. Apparently, you distrust Jesus own words.

Regards

Also..
John lived up to about AD 96, & surely if there had of been any need for change in past writings, he would have done so. (With where the need had of arisen) But again, these writings are True 'testimony' of how these Holy men of God saw the subject presented to them from the Holy Spirit. Yet, in their own descriptive words.

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

Also..
John lived up to about AD 96, & surely if there had of been any need for change in past writings, he would have done so. (With where the need had of arisen) But again, these writings are True 'testimony' of how these Holy men of God saw the subject presented to them from the Holy Spirit. Yet, in their own descriptive words.

--Elijah

Not only that, but the "Table of Contents" would not have included Pauline writings, if they were overtly contradictory to the writings of Peter or John. The idea is that the entire Bible is God's Word, written by men inspired by the Spirit. If there is outright contradiction, there is a problem with that premise.

Thus, the idea that Paul contradicts Jesus is untrue, given the first Christians, who had the opportunity to hear Paul and Peter and John directly, did not see several Gospels being taught simultaneously. Paul ensured that his Gospel agreed with what the rest of the Apostles taught (according to his biographical comments to the Galatians).

The problem is that men disagree with the interpretations of Scriptures, not that the Word of God contradicts itself.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

Not only that, but the "Table of Contents" would not have included Pauline writings, if they were overtly contradictory to the writings of Peter or John. The idea is that the entire Bible is God's Word, written by men inspired by the Spirit. If there is outright contradiction, there is a problem with that premise.

Thus, the idea that Paul contradicts Jesus is untrue, given the first Christians, who had the opportunity to hear Paul and Peter and John directly, did not see several Gospels being taught simultaneously. Paul ensured that his Gospel agreed with what the rest of the Apostles taught (according to his biographical comments to the Galatians).

The problem is that men disagree with the interpretations of Scriptures, not that the Word of God contradicts itself.

Regards

Agreed. I find it interesting after reading it over by the church masses about Peters 3 Time Vision which he did not doubt God, but just what God meant,.. that we still see preached & taught so many differet ways. The chapter (Acts 10) is clearly laid out if one would apply its total context instead of just the Vision Words of verse 13 and Peter's reply. ibid. 14.

But what is mind boggaling to me, is WHY peter told God, 'Not So Lord..' and not any thought is ever given to this Truth!! Three times even, the Vision was given! & still Peter was still a staunch BELIEVER that Christ NEVER CHANGES! Heb. 13:8. But that is a different thread perhaps?

--Elijah

 

[mondar]

God is indeed Love and the Biblical notion of Love (not the worldly notion) holds the key to God's Work in the Universe. It is behind the Divine Economy, it is WHY God became Man in the first place, not out of any sort of notion of wrath, judgment or glory (Phil 2 makes that last part very clear).

It is the mistake that has led many to the false idea of "penal substitution". But that's a topic for another day.

Well, now that you mention it.... I would disagree with what you said above. The basis of my objection is two fold.

FIRST--- LOVE IN THE PENAL SUBSTITUTIONARY VIEW OF THE ATONEMENT
Penal Substitutionary atonement is an expression and affirmation of God's love, not a denial. You could say that God does not love the whole world enough to save the whole world in the Penal Substitutionary view. However, you would have to answer the same questions. Even in Roman Catholic theology, God does not save the whole world. You can say that God provided a general atonement, but that does not answer the question. If God loves the whole world in a salvific way, why did he not create a world in which everyone is to be saved? If you interject and assume "free will" it still does not answer the question. Is God incapable of bringing free will agents to salvation? You still end up with some sort of deficiency in God.

In the Penal Substitutionary atonement, God can love the whole world in a more general way. He provides the rain on the just and unjust alike. God restrains his wrath by his love and sends messengers to call the unsaved to salvation universally. That also is a part of his universal love. The penal-substitutionary view has a universal love, but not a universal saving love. Nevertheless, any view short of universalism has the same issues. If there is no universalism, then God's love is not saving all people.

SECOND PENAL SUBSTITUTIONARY VIEW AND GOD'S WRATH
The penal-substitutionary view does include a concept of God's wrath being poured out upon sinners. Just a simple word search of the word "wrath" would make it clear that God manifests his wrath against sinners. Romans 9:22 says that God is willing to show his wrath and make his power known. I know of not one interpreter that would deny that God is manifesting his "wrath" to someone, or something in that verse.

The penal-substitution view includes both love and wrath. It is a high view of Gods love, because Gods love saves to the uttermost those who are under that atonement. It takes an actual view of God's wrath because it recognizes we all deserve God's wrath. It allows for wrath. We truely are "sinners in the hands of an angry God."

I gave Psalm 81 as an example of the God Who seeks Israel out, His beloved.

"Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!"

I think it becomes evident that the Incarnation and the Crucifixion shows God's "desperation", if I may be so bold, for "Israel" to turn to Him in love.

Happy New Year...

Certainly God seeks out Israel. He does not choose each and every Israelite for salvation, but he seeks out Israel as a corporate group. He gave them the law, the prophets, the covenants, the fathers, and much more. If he were not seeking them out, how else would they get all these things? That is a scriptural "given."

I could look up individual texts to support my agreement with you here, but it does not seem necessary. The question is "does Israel seek out God." I guess there is a scriptural way you could even say Israel sought out God, but not by faith.

You could ask why God would show a general love for men and invite them to turn to him, when he did not include them in the substitutionary atonement. The answer to that question is found in the purpose of creation. Creation is made not so that God is not "lonely" but so that he can manifest is glorious attributes to a people chosen by him from the foundation of the earth.

 

[casper]

The Bible is clear about Jesus being the only way of salvation. He's the only way to have your sins forgiven and attain eternal life.​

• Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
  
  ​
• "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12
  
  ​

Yet, there are people on this planet who have never heard of Jesus. Let's use an example of a native African who lives deep in the jungle who is removed from communication with the rest of the world. This individual will die and face judgment, never having heard the gospel message of forgiveness of sins. Will God find him guilty of breaking His laws and punish him accordingly? How is it fair for God to condemn him to hell never having an opportunity to receive Jesus as his savior?

Let's ask the question, why does an individual go to hell? The answer is not because they haven't received Jesus as their savior, but because they've sinned against God. Everyone who goes to hell goes there simply because of their sins. This is an important distinction to make. People who go to heaven, go because of God's grace, people who go to hell, go because of their own sins. We know that the native African has broken God's laws, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 He, therefore, will end up in hell if he doesn't receive forgiveness for his sins. The argument is, "He never had the opportunity for forgiveness!"​

Let's examine that in light of Scripture. First off, the Bible declares that every single person knows that God exists. We know this because we see all that He has made. We see His creation, the universe, and everything that surrounds us.​

"What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world,
God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen,
being understood from what has been made,
so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19,20​

They are without excuse. Additionally, even primitive tribes have a concept of right and wrong. This is evidence by the false gods and false religious systems they have in place. Prayers and sacrifices are made to these idols in an attempt to appease this god or gods. Although they don't have the written law of God as revealed in the Bible, God gave them an innate sense of right and wrong, and a conscience has been given to every human being. God gave this to every person, Jew and Gentile alike, as well as to the civilized and uncivilized.​

Romans chapter 2 states, "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." Romans 2:12-16 ​

The fact is that all people are accountable to God. The problem is that most people reject what has been revealed to them. Back to Romans chapter 1, "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen." Romans 1:21-25​

If the native in Africa would respond to the light he has been given, it's my belief that God will get him the gospel of Jesus Christ somehow. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, "But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul."​

Everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known. God will send a missionary. God will get a Bible into his hand. God will arrange for him to hear the truth of the gospel. Again, the problem is most don't respond to what has already been given to them. ​

If they have rejected creation, inner light and conscience
what makes us think they would respond to further revelation?​

Yet, we know that some will respond and therefore we are commanded to go. Because we, as Christians, are the means that God uses to draw those people to Himself. Further in the book of Romans we read, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" Romans 10:13-15​

It's ironic that everyone who raises the question, in the form of an objection, "What happens to the person who has never heard about Jesus?", has heard about Jesus, and is currently rejecting Him. The Bibles teaches that there are degrees of severity in terms of punishment in hell. It will be more unbearable for the one who has heard of Christ and rejected Him, than the one who has received less light. This should terrify those who know the truth and yet remain in rebellion. Please, if have spent any time at all on this website, you know the offer of total forgiveness of your sins through the death of Jesus Christ. You are absolutely without excuse. Please don't reject this offer, repent and put your faith in Christ today. ​

Source:​

"What About Those Who Never Hear About Jesus?"

The clear problem with this is, 'how can a primitive tribe acknowledge God in a respectable manner without first hearing the word' ?, it seems to much is expected from them.


Theses innate feelings must be confusing without the word so they turn to idol worship as a way of expressing these feeling, They don't know God is a invisible God that hates idol worship how could they. To say they automatically no what is right and wrong surly is flawed. Right and wrong vary between cultures. Sure some things would automatically feel wrong like murder, rape, but others like lust and Idol worship wouldn't.


Anyhow I don't mean to argue I just find it confusing, it seems like primitive cultures get a raw deal, However I can take comfort in knowing they are not punished as badly as someone that has heard the word and turned away from it

 

[casper]

Amen, Alabaster. We know from the Word that the Gospel is preached to every creature which is under heaven. God has always sent forth "missionaries" to reach them with the message of salvation. Faith has been available to mankind since the beginning of time.

Maybe most tribe's in our modern period have had the opportunity to hear the word but what about past tribes before air travel etc. Million's of people from the past must have died before missionaries could travel great distances and teach the word.

 

[francisdesales]

Maybe most tribe's in our modern period have had the opportunity to hear the word but what about past tribes before air travel etc. Million's of people from the past must have died before missionaries could travel great distances and teach the word.

I don't think it was Paul's intent to mean that all pagans would know God through creation to the degree that we, or even Israelites know God. We can know, even without divine revelation, that there is a God, One God, a Creator who made us. We can also derive addition ideas about this God by analyzing "conscience", that "Law" within us that moves us to do something (good) that we often do not want to do - or find a useful purpose to do.

Yes, everyone has access to knowledge of God through rational thought, but not at the level of what divine revelation has told us.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Agreed. I find it interesting after reading it over by the church masses about Peters 3 Time Vision which he did not doubt God, but just what God meant,.. that we still see preached & taught so many differet ways. The chapter (Acts 10) is clearly laid out if one would apply its total context instead of just the Vision Words of verse 13 and Peter's reply. ibid. 14.

But what is mind boggaling to me, is WHY peter told God, 'Not So Lord..' and not any thought is ever given to this Truth!! Three times even, the Vision was given! & still Peter was still a staunch BELIEVER that Christ NEVER CHANGES! Heb. 13:8. But that is a different thread perhaps?

--Elijah

I think humans have very staunch views on the particulars of their religion and that a "cognitive dissonance" occurs when something of greater authority questions that idea. A prime example is that the Messiah would suffer and die and would rise from the dead (see Peter's reaction, again, in Matthew 16, right after being called a "rock" by Christ...)

I don't think it is a matter of disbelief in God, but that our own views held so strongly may have been wrong and that the replacement theology isn't immediately absorbed.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Well, now that you mention it.... I would disagree with what you said above. The basis of my objection is two fold.

Mondar,

I would love to discuss this with you, but as I said, this is something of another topic. Perhaps you could move your last post to a new topic and invite me to a discussion?

Thanks and Happy New Year.

 

[elijah23]

Why don't you follow what Jesus said?

When he sent the disciples out, He said, "Whoever will not receive you...shake the very dust from you feet as a TESTIMONY AGAINST THEM."


You should really pray about what you're saying, because Jesus said those who hear the ones He sent, hear HIM, and "he that despiseth you despiseth me". Young's correctly translates "dispiseth" as "putting away". When you deny the truth of those Jesus chose, you deny Him.

The apostles are the witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great power came upon them. It's so sad to see a believer doubt those the Lord chose to pen the Holy Scriptures. It denies the power of the Holy Spirit.

These men are all great men, and I have learned much from them. I just think they occasionally misspoke.