A Question about Paul

[Mike]

I'd like to comment on this part of the equation... I've heard other people express that they trust Jesus Words in the Bible implicitly. Good. They say if Jesus said it, then it's true. Good. The problem I have is when people place an inordinate emphasis on the stories of Christ or by Christ. What I'm getting at is that Jesus didn't set and pen the Gospels. Men did. Just like men penned the letters and epistles. Just because the Words of Christ in scripture are the Words of Christ, doesn't make them any less errant than the rest of the NT.

The very good thing, though is that we can trust the Words of Jesus in the Bible implicitly, but we can also trust what is recorded by Paul and Luke and John.

Randy, you stopped short of saying what other have said, but I think you were headed there. As for Paul and his writings, I put them equally on par (and the bar is high) with anything else in scripture, because I believe in the inerrant Word of God. I'm hearing you not only have a problem with distractions in the Word from Jesus Words and how the Canon was selected, but you also have a problem with the Nicene Council. Those are threads of their own, I suppose.

 

[TheRealTruth777]

This is a busy thread...a lot was posted just as I was composing my last post.

Randy, you said, "And the fact that there is "feel good doctrine" and other heresy is a great point that you are making...but I have not introduced anything other than Christ's own words in my arguments...so there is zero chance of any heresy in anything I am saying."

I'm not accusing you as an heretic...but I do caution that line of thinking. As theLord's pointed out, a lot of people now claim that God has nothing at all against homosexuality, because Jesus never said anything against it. Christ's words certainly can be twisted into heresy and anything that He didn't speak to can become wide open, if we are to ignore the rest of the New Testament...not that I'm saying that you are doing this.

Actually...that's a different line of thinking. I assure you, I will never use something Christ DIDN'T SAY as evidence...only something he DID SAY.

 

[TheRealTruth777]

Randy, you stopped short of saying what other have said, but I think you were headed there. As for Paul and his writings, I put them equally on par (and the bar is high) with anything else in scripture, because I believe in the inerrant Word of God. I'm hearing you not only have a problem with distractions in the Word from Jesus Words and how the Canon was selected, but you also have a problem with the Nicene Council. Those are threads of their own, I suppose.

Fair enough, Mike! I like your perspective on this.

It is interesting to note though...that my explanation for the reason that evil is allowed to exist (for a season) comes from the words of Christ, and not something that Paul said. But if anyone can point to a scripture where Paul expounds on that subject and makes it more clear please let me know!!

 

[TheRealTruth777]

I'm not accusing you as an heretic...but I do caution that line of thinking. As theLord's pointed out, a lot of people now claim that God has nothing at all against homosexuality, because Jesus never said anything against it. Christ's words certainly can be twisted into heresy and anything that He didn't speak to can become wide open, if we are to ignore the rest of the New Testament...not that I'm saying that you are doing this.

This is of course, a wonderful point to make..because it is easy for people to slip into that!

Regarding homosexuality though...we have Leviticus 18:22 which says "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

The fact that some Christians can refer to something Jesus didn't say as evidence for support of homosexuality and the like...is due to the fact that some Christians are ignoring, or are not familiar with, the Old Testament.

 

[handy]

Fair enough, Mike! I like your perspective on this.

It is interesting to note though...that my explanation for the reason that evil is allowed to exist (for a season) comes from the words of Christ, and not something that Paul said. But if anyone can point to a scripture where Paul expounds on that subject and makes it more clear please let me know!!

Here's a passage that Paul wrote the the Thessalonians that echos what Christ taught regarding doing good to others, even those who do evil:

We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. 1 Thessalonians 5:14-15

The fact that some Christians can refer to something Jesus didn't say as evidence for support of homosexuality and the like...is due to the fact that some Christians are ignoring, or are not familiar with, the Old Testament.

True enough...but then there are also those who say that we should just stick with what Christ says and ignore the rest of the New Testament as well. ;)

Because of all the rapid postings on this thread yesterday, I wanted to bring up again what Peter said of Paul's writings:

"Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

 

[TheRealTruth777]

But, context is always important when reading the Scriptures and when we look at the context of Romans 13 we see that Paul is specifically speaking to how the Romans Christians should treat other people. He is speaking to the fact that if the Romans remain law abiding citizens and good neighbors, there is no reason to fear the Roman authorities or the Roman laws

I think the problem that I have with it, is that I don't think Paul ever says TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, MIND, SOUL, STRENGTH anywhere in his writings. For all his lengthy words to everyone...he seems to leave it out. He talks about God's love for US, but seems to neglect ever mentioning our priority to love Him the way Christ has instructed. Maybe it's a problem..maybe not. I guess it's for all of you to decide.

AS far as Romans 13: 1-7, when Paul wrote ..."Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of god. Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordinance of god: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Will you then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and you shall have praise of the same: for he is the minister of God to you for good. But if you do that which is evil, be afraid"



I understand that God is in control of all these things...and I agree with that.

The problem is that at the End of the World..the strong delusion (that we will believe a lie) is that Evil will seem Good and Good will seem Evil. Isaiah 5:20 says "woe unto those who call evil good, and good evil." When Christians are persecuted at the end of the age, and when the Two Witnesses are hated by the world for their testimony, this reversal (which is very much in progress) will have been completed.

So when the mark of the beast comes, as it will so cleverly, would some of us be afraid to resist the "mark" because the government tells us so and because the man in charge is ordained by God (and will seem so spiritual, working miracles?) We have to watch out with that one...as the serpent is very subtle and clever.

I think at the very least, we must exercise caution with the words of Paul, because of the fact that many people find it hard to understand, and it's can be easy to misconstrue. If one is truly versed in the Old Testament, the words of Christ, and of course Revelation...Paul's words are much easier to interpret correctly.

 

[TheRealTruth777]

Also, didn't Jesus say "if I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true?"

Was Paul the only one who declared that we was actually an apostle, and at that, the Greatest of the Apostles?

Also, was there a prediction of his (Paul's) coming that Christ, or any Biblical prophecy gave...that we were to expect him..since Paul is obviously so important?

Please let me know the scriptures regarding this!

 

[TheRealTruth777]

True enough...but then there are also those who say that we should just stick with what Christ says and ignore the rest of the New Testament as well. ;)

You can't go wrong with Christ...no matter what, because the Holy Spirit still reveals to us everything we need to know directly...and THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I LOVE THAT PAUL HIMSELF SAID!!! :yes Paul said that no man taught him...but the Spirit taught him...so it is a mute point about whether we need to accept the entire new testament. We have the LAW and we have CHRIST.

But I do believe that many of the other New Testament books are great...and of course Revelation is definitely, in my opinion, a book inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[TheRealTruth777]

Here's a passage that Paul wrote the the Thessalonians that echos what Christ taught regarding doing good to others, even those who do evil:

We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. 1 Thessalonians 5:14-15

Excellent!! I love this passage. It's close to what I was looking for. But I would still like to see him expound more on the point that Christ made...that if we only love those who love us...where is our reward?

 

[TheRealTruth777]

Previously I posted: "I can help you with the "problem of evil", by the way. Evil has to exist in order for us to have a reward in heaven. Christ said "if you love only those who love you...where is your reward?" It is only by resisting and overcoming evil that we grow spiritually. It's like spiritual weightlifting...or the spiritual equivalent of natural selection. It's by STRIVING to overcome evil, and by raising our vibration...that we grow. It's kind of the spiritual equivalent of becoming resistant to infections...and similar to how the brain and mind gets much more tenacious as a result of environmental triggers...that stimulate it into action and growth!

We are here to do spritual work...and then comes our rest, with the Lord."

This may be true, my brain tells me to give you the benefit of the doubt, but my heart tells me "No way, Jose! This is an outright unbiblical lie!"

I undersand. It isn't that easy of a concept to immediately accept.

But why else would a Good God allow these things to happen...and why would Christ have to suffer, and tell us to not be afraid to suffer..if it were not for some further ultimate purpose and good?

God allowed his Christ to be crucified at the hands of evil..as it was prophecied, so that there would be no limit to his kingdom. We are in part crucified along with him, so that we can inherit part of this gift. It is purposeful sacrifice followed by ressurrection and rebirth, whereas the evil path is instant gratification followed by loss and decay. They are perfect opposites of each other.

In Revelation, one of the angels is told to not hurt the earth yet, until the rest of those are sealed in their foreheads by being martyred! This is for their own glory ultimately.

So I believe it is very Biblical to have this perspective actually.

The Bible mentions "This present evil age" and mentions how the dragon is released again eventually "to deceive the nations"...so we see a pattern of God periodically allowing these things to happen.

 

[TheRealTruth777]

Because of all the rapid postings on this thread yesterday, I wanted to bring up again what Peter said of Paul's writings:

"Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

Very cool. I like what Peter wrote here. I must therefore definitely be careful to not distort anything Paul said.

Like I said above, I do think it was very cool that Paul said The Spirit taught him things directly, that he had no need that any man teach him. That is what Christ taught also (though we certainly needed HIM as a teacher, for sure, and there is nothing wrong with being taught either!).

So as long as we realize that, no one needs to argue about what should be Canon and what shouldn't be..as the Spirit teaches and reveals all things to those who ask in love and faith.

The Holy Spirit is an ever-unfolding and ever-present Word of God that is inside all of us..and always with us, that can make right anything that seems confusing or wrong in the written word. Some Christians maybe are afraid to trust it, and I wish they would trust it!

 

[TheRealTruth777]

Christ has appeared to many, and He has His reasons. I know of someone (atheist) who put a loaded gun to their head and was about to pull the trigger, when suddenly Christ appeared before this person. There are many Christians who become believers through these types of encounters with Christ. Usually, the ones who meet Christ in this manner are the ones who become extremely zealous in a holy manner for the Lord. Ever heard of Esther Gulshan? She was a Pakistani Muslim who was crippled from a childhood disease. She did not believe in Christ, she was raised to deny Him, but when He healed her and appeared before her, she became a believer. Like Paul, she faced death threats and became alienated from her family and countrymen. She spent the rest of her life as a single woman traveling the world preaching the Gospel of Christ.

Christ said: "Blessed are those who believe without seeing." He didn't say "Those who believe without seeing are the only true believers" or "Those who believe only by seeing are not true believers." Those who believe without seeing will receive their reward in the heavenlies; those who believe because of seeing, receive their reward in the here and now.

This thread moved so fast, that I neglected to comment on this directly until now! Sorry about that!

This is very great information, and I will research this kind of phenomenon to see what the evidence is on it. I think in Paul's case, it may be quite possible that the Lord chose him in order to give him a chance to make up for his sins, among lots of other reasons.

I still have some problems with the Book of Acts.,...which I will start a separate thread on.

But if we look at Paul's case, and compare that to what Christ said, and interpret Christ's statement as really meaning "especially blessed are those who believe without seeing," then Paul really should not have considered himself The Greatest Apostle in that sense. Maybe as far as the amount of work he did, you could say that.

 

[Sinthesis]

I think in Paul's case, it may be quite possible that the Lord chose him in order to give him a chance to make up for his sins, among lots of other reasons.

One of the foundational truths of Christianity is that one can never 'make up for his sins'.

 

[TheRealTruth777]

One of the foundational truths of Christianity is that one can never 'make up for his sins'.

That's not true according to this passage:

1 peter 4: 8 Love makes up for many offenses

Put differently in the King James Version it reads:

1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."

 

[TheRealTruth777]

I think that this concept that Christ "paid for our sins" and we can do nothing of ourselves to make up for them is not correct. Christ said "pick up your cross and follow me." It is HARD work. We are all, in part, crucified with him, and ressurected with him...and we ALL must do our part to "be without blemish" at his coming. We must work to fill our lamps with oil everyday.

 

[TheRealTruth777]

Also..the way that I mean "make up for sins" is in the sense of OVERCOMING sin within us.

Revelation 2:11 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels"

There are many more references. So I mean "to overcome sin" by doing that which is good and loving God. That's the way I think it is meant in 1 Peter 4:8.

This concept that Paul was instantly born again and blameless may not really be in accordance with what the rest of scripture teaches about the hard work along the spiritual walk to attain perfection. We can debate that if you wish.

 

[WIP]

Was Paul the only one who declared that we was actually an apostle, and at that, the Greatest of the Apostles?

Couple thoughts on this.

Declaring one an apostle is not good in what way? An apostle is someone that is sent to deliver a message. We are all apostles are we not since we have been sent on the great commission?

Regarding Paul declaring himself the greatest apostle, do you have references to that? I thought he actually said the opposite that he is the worst of the worst. I will try to find the reference I'm thinking of when I get a chance.

 

[handy]

WIP, you are correct, Paul did not say that he was the "greatest of the apostles" but rather the least of the apostles:

After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 1 Corinthians 15:6-9

RealTruth...I am curious...you seem to be operating on a lot of misinformation about Paul. Are you reading the Epistles for yourself or are you visiting anti-Paul websites?

 

[TheRealTruth777]

WIP, you are correct, Paul did not say that he was the "greatest of the apostles" but rather the least of the apostles:

After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 1 Corinthians 15:6-9

RealTruth...I am curious...you seem to be operating on a lot of misinformation about Paul. Are you reading the Epistles for yourself or are you visiting anti-Paul websites?

Yes, WIP, you are correct. He does say many times that he was the least because the had persecuted the church. I thought that I had read a part where he boasts about himself being the greatest of apostles...I guess I was wrong!

And now I have a confession to make, and I hope you will forgive me..because I have only done this to be of service.

I am writing a book...and in it will be a chapter on Paul. I have visited anti-Paul websites before, and I have also read the epistles for myself...and reread them...but I felt I needed help to sort through some of the tougher issues that I could not find an answer to.

I am thinking that Paul is definitely an apostle..but that there are still problems with Acts. There is even a chance (though maybe a small chance) that Acts was written after the Book of Revelation. It couldn't have been too much later though if it was. There is only about a 1-2 year span that the two books could have been written in, if that was the case, and it would have had to be prior to 70AD. This part might require a lot of research.




And WIP...you are correct. Being an apostle should not be limited in any way. We all can be apostles, if we could measure up to the calling. I wholeheartedly agree.

The part of the Bible that the opponents of Paul are going to mention regarding this is Revelation 21:14 where it reads "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb"

And with Revelation being the final word, it seems hard to get around that.
There are a few things in Revelation in particular that seem to be intended (by the Spirit) to set the record straight, as it were. Certainly the Angel had good reasons to command John to write them, and include all of the statements therein. What do we say about this?

And who else, other than Luke, (and Paul himself) ever called Paul an apostle?

Regarding the two or three witnesses thing...that seems to only apply to those being accused of some crime..or should that apply to apostleship also? Any comments on that?

 

[westtexas]

I am writing a book...and in it will be a chapter on Paul. I have visited anti-Paul websites before, and I have also read the epistles for myself...and reread them...but I felt I needed help to sort through some of the tougher issues that I could not find an answer to.

Just a word of advice and you can do with it as you see fit. WIP and Handy are always solid with their biblical doctrine. There others on the forum, such as myself, who's scriptural knowledge is not quite as sound. Just because you read it on a Christian Forum, the answer is not necessarily solid biblically. Read, and then see
if the answers agree with scripture.:2cents
Westtexas