[_ Old Earth _] A Question about your views on Evolution/Creationism.

[Jim Parker]

Mr. Parker said: "I see science as a means to explain our world around us using our own limited knowledge and understanding"

I agree.

i see Gods word as a means to explain our world around us,

I do not agree. God's word is a revelation of God's love for mankind and of the relationship HE desires to have with man and the means by which that relationship is established and sustained.

Any mention of the world around us in the Bible is used to clarify that primary purpose and not as a science text about creation.

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guild us into all truth because we have limited knowledge..

The Holy Spirit was sent to guide us into the truth about God, not astronomy, or quantum physics, or math, of history.

And the foundation and pillar of the truth is the Church (1Ti 3:15) not every Tom, Dick, and Harriet with a 3rd grade reading level and a KJV Bible.

And the "Church" is the institution, not scattered mass of individuals, each with their own uninspired opinion and all claiming to be led by the Holy Ghost. That's how we ended up with 50,000 or so denominations, sects, and movements all reading the same Bible, all disagreeing, and all claiming to be led by the same Holy Spirit to the really true truth. (oi veh!) Sum Ting Wong

my 2 kpoecks
iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Science, which would attempt to overthrow God with science, has a problem, and this problem they face is that to be a God, you have to be able to create a brand new thing from NOTHING.

Nonsense.

Science, or rather, scientists, have no such intention. People go into the field of science because it interests them (and they have the brains to do it) not because they want to "overthrow" God.

I know of no scientists who are attempting to create anything out of nothing or who believe it could be done. Theoretical physicists have been trying to discover the basic building blocks of matter. None of them thinks it's "nothing."

Those are silly ideas intended to convince uneducated and gullible people that they shouldn't doubt what the preacher says God's word means. (Particularly that they should tithe! )


iakov the fool

 

[Kidron]

Nonsense.

Science, or rather, scientists, have no such intention. People go into the field of science because it interests them (and they have the brains to do it) not because they want to "overthrow" God.
I know of no scientists who are attempting to create anything out of nothing or who believe it could be done. Theoretical physicists have been trying to discover the basic building blocks of matter. None of them thinks it's "nothing."



iakov the fool

Science, or rather, scientists, have no such intention. People go into the field of science because it interests them (and they have the brains to do it) not because they want to "overthrow" God.


If it were not for science, then we would be teaching Genesis 1 in school.
God as creator has been replaced by the Theory of Evolution.

And why are we told that a "big bang" started it all?
Because science has usurped God as creator.



I know of no scientists who are attempting to create anything out of nothing or who believe it could be done. Theoretical physicists have been trying to discover the basic building blocks of matter. None of them thinks it's "nothing."

It seems you skimmed over what i wrote.
Its best to read it, then you wont write something that has nothing to do with my post.
I said that science cant create anything unless they have what has already been provided for them to use to try.
But this is different then God, and his mo, as God creates the brand spanking new from nothing but His idea, and it becomes a new creation.
God visualizes it, and speaks it into existence as a new creation.
Science cant do this, and never will.

 

[Jim Parker]

Science, or rather, scientists, have no such intention. People go into the field of science because it interests them (and they have the brains to do it) not because they want to "overthrow" God.

If it were not for science, then we would be teaching Genesis 1 in school.
God as creator has been replaced by the Theory of Evolution.

Since this country is not a theocracy, but a secular republic, the people of this country have chosen not to teach Judaeo/Christian theology in public schools. If you have a problem with that then send you kids to private Christian schools. It's a free country; you can do that.

[QUOTE]And why are we told that a "big bang" started it all?
Because science has usurped God as creator. [/QUOTE]

We are not told that the big bang "started" anything. We are told that the "big bang" was the first event in time. Science does not pretend to know what caused the "big bang." In fact, they would be delighted to be able to figure out what caused it if it was a material cause. But even if they found a material cause, it would just push the question back a step to, "what caused that cause?" At some point we come to the uncaused cause Whom we call God.

I don't have a problem with God's saying "let there be light" being followed by a really big bang.

It seems you skimmed over what i wrote. Its best to read it, then you wont write something that has nothing to do with my post. I said that science cant create anything unless they have what has already been provided for them to use to try.

I didn't skim over what you wrote. What you wrote was irrelevant to the conversation and absurd. Scientists are not attempting to create something out of nothing. Nobody is claiming that they can create something out of nothing. So what you said has no meaning in this universe.

But this is different then God, and his mo, as God creates the brand spanking new from nothing but His idea, and it becomes a new creation. God visualizes it, and speaks it into existence as a new creation. Science cant do this, and never will.

What is "his mo"? Do you mean "M.O."? Modus Operandi?

What are you talking about?? Nobody said scientists, by using their scientific knowledge, could create something from nothing. Nobody but YOU, that is. Why are you ranting about something that doesn't even exist?


iakov the fool

 

[reba]

Disagree but watch the snarks ....better then watching them dont type'em

 

[Jim Parker]

Disagree but watch the snarks ....better then watching them dont type'em

The Air Force had an early cruise missile program that wasn't doing very well. The missile was called the "SNARK."

They were testing-firing them in California out over the Pacific. The SNARKS kept crashing into the ocean leading the folks to say that the area where the crashed was "SNARK infested waters."

Thue story

iakov the fool.

 

[reba]

 

[turnorburn]

I agree.



I do not agree. God's word is a revelation of God's love for mankind and of the relationship HE desires to have with man and the means by which that relationship is established and sustained.

Any mention of the world around us in the Bible is used to clarify that primary purpose and not as a science text about creation.



The Holy Spirit was sent to guide us into the truth about God, not astronomy, or quantum physics, or math, of history.

And the foundation and pillar of the truth is the Church (1Ti 3:15) not every Tom, Dick, and Harriet with a 3rd grade reading level and a KJV Bible.

And the "Church" is the institution, not scattered mass of individuals, each with their own uninspired opinion and all claiming to be led by the Holy Ghost. That's how we ended up with 50,000 or so denominations, sects, and movements all reading the same Bible, all disagreeing, and all claiming to be led by the same Holy Spirit to the really true truth. (oi veh!) Sum Ting Wong

my 2 kpoecks
iakov the fool

Science needs to read this..

Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

One problem they don't want to have to answer to God..

tob

 

[Jim Parker]

Science needs to read this..

Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? 9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, 10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, 11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

One problem they don't want to have to answer to God..

tob

I'm having a difficult time responding.

Science is the investigation into how the universe ( the creation) works.
Science is not the investigation into how God (the creator) works.

One cannot answer theological questions, like the suffering of the righteous that Job addresses, with science.
Neither can you answer scientific questions with theology.

Until people understand that, they will continue to make nonsense statements about the conflict between science and the Bible. It's a bit like going to the blacksmith for instructions on how to bake a cake.

iakov the fool

 

[reba]

Questions for Christians (Q&A)
A place for seekers to ask open, honest questions about our faith.

This forum is not one for the continuous arguments . Please try and exercise some respect for the forums you post in and the TOS ...

 

[WIP]

Since there does seem to be an interest in discussing and debating this topic and the OP has not been seen for quite some time, I have decided to move this thread to the Christianity & Science forum. Please remember to be polite and courteous to each other.

Thanks

 

[Kidron]

Since this country is not a theocracy, but a secular republic, the people of this country have chosen not to teach Judaeo/Christian theology in public schools.

The "people of this country" never have been asked to vote on whether to teach Judaeo-Christian theology in public schools or not.
This taking out of schools the Bible<> the 10 Commandments, etc, was done without the consent of the "people of this country".
It was done instead by misrepresenting-misquoting the 1st Amendment and then using this secular deceit to leverage God out of the public schools and anything they decided to call "Federal".

 

[Barbarian]

James Madison, more than any single person, was responsible for writing the Bill of Rights. Perhaps you should learn what he thought in order to better understand the will of the Founders.

 

[Kidron]

James Madison, more than any single person, was responsible for writing the Bill of Rights. Perhaps you should learn what he thought in order to better understand the will of the Founders.

J. Madison said this........

""I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; """

"""The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established.....

 

[Barbarian]

J. Madison said this........

Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy. Propose a restoration of this primitive State in which its Teachers depended on the voluntary rewards of their flocks, many of them predict its downfall. On which Side ought their testimony to have greatest weight, when for or when against their interest?
James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions43.html

Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history
James Madison (Detached Memoranda, circa 1820)

It may come as a shock to modern establishment advocates that while Madison thought that religion was a necessary element for a just and civilized society, he wanted to maintain a "separation between religion and government." It is because he was a Christian that he wanted separation; as he wrote, government support for religion is intrinsically bound to be evil.

 

[Kidron]

It may come as a shock to modern establishment advocates that while Madison thought that religion was a necessary element for a just and civilized society, he wanted to maintain a "separation between religion and government." It is because he was a Christian that he wanted separation; as he wrote, government support for religion is intrinsically bound to be evil.

This is what he means....

"" nor shall any national religion be established"" = "A separation between religion and gov".

 

[Barbarian]

No. He wrote that he wanted a separation of government and religion, period. He actually thought that tax exemptions for churches were a violation of the first amendment.

Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation.

Nothing about it being O.K. if it was a state establishment. Wishful thinking on the part of some people. Nothing more.

 

[AirDancer]

And that separation of church and state was a direct result of the ways churches/religions were handled in the European countries where the governments established the sole-religion of all the churches in the country, then taxed the people if they did not appear weekly at service.

 

[Barbarian]

Right. They saw what government-supported religion was like, and wanted none of it.

 

[Sinthesis]

When you consider how anti-government the religious right has become in this country, it seems strange that they would ever lust over using the power of government to promote religion.