A Serious Mistranslation

[Asyncritus]

Php 2.10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; KJV

10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,ASV

10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, ERV

There is a colossal difference in meaning between the two renderings. So which one is correct?

The best way to resolve the issue, is to look at the other places where the identical Greek phrase (ev tw onomati Iesou) is used.

Here they all are:

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ (ev tw onomati Iesou) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: in the name of Jesus (ev tw onomati Iesou) Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus (ev tw onomati Iesou) Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Ac 4:18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus (ev tw onomati Iesou).

Ac 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus (ev tw onomati Iesou), and let them go.

Ac 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus (ev tw onomati tou Iesou).

Ac 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus (ev tw onomati Iesou) Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus (ev tw onomati Iesou) every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth ...

On what grounds, therefore, is the word AT inserted instead of IN?

 

[glorydaz]

New International Version (©1984)
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

New Living Translation (©2007)
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

English Standard Version (©2001)
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

International Standard Version (©2008)
And so, when Jesus' name is called, the knees of everyone should fall wherever they're residing.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
so that at the name of Jesus everyone in heaven, on earth, and in the world below will kneel

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

American King James Version
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

American Standard Version
that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,

Bible in Basic English
So that at the name of Jesus every knee may be bent, of those in heaven and those on earth and those in the underworld,

Douay-Rheims Bible
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

Darby Bible Translation
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal beings,

English Revised Version
that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,

Webster's Bible Translation
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;

Weymouth New Testament
in order that in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld,

World English Bible
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,

Young's Literal Translation
that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth --


There are others in agreement with the AV or KJV, and considering it in context, it makes more more sense to me.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

 

[for_his_glory]

Personally for myself I only use the KJV and the Jerusalem Bible to study out of as some of the newer translation seem to omit certain words or as you have stated here in and by can change the whole meaning of a verse. Everything we do as a follower of Christ we do by his instruction and we are servants whom by his name we are called of God to continue in the works of Christ as all we do we do in the name of Jesus by the Holy Spirit that guides us.

You have to be careful for all the new translations that are out there, including the KJV, as it might not be the writers intentions to change anything from the original Hebrew and Greek language, but one English word can take on many different meanings. This is why it is so important to allow the Holy Spirit teach you and give you knowledge of what you are studying so you can Spiritually discern what others are teaching to know truth from error by that which we read or hear from others.

 

[Gazelle]

Somehow I knew someone would pick that post apart. Oh well.

This proves the marvelous-ness of the Greek language! All the different words they have, and how they are used just puts English to shame imo.

Some of what you ask is implied information... At the name ...
means that at hearing the name... at the point of hearing the name

stuff like that makes English difficult to learn eh?

 

[Asyncritus]

New International Version (©1984)
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

New Living Translation (©2007)
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

English Standard Version (©2001)
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

International Standard Version (©2008)
And so, when Jesus' name is called, the knees of everyone should fall wherever they're residing.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
so that at the name of Jesus everyone in heaven, on earth, and in the world below will kneel

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

American King James Version
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

American Standard Version
that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,

Bible in Basic English
So that at the name of Jesus every knee may be bent, of those in heaven and those on earth and those in the underworld,

Douay-Rheims Bible
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

Darby Bible Translation
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal beings,

English Revised Version
that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,

Webster's Bible Translation
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;

Weymouth New Testament
in order that in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld,

World English Bible
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,

Young's Literal Translation
that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth --


There are others in agreement with the AV or KJV, and considering it in context, it makes more more sense to me.

What I will say, is that those other passages where the identical phrase in Greek is translated IN, give absolute divine guidance as to what the phrase really means.

Personally, I prefer Peter and Paul's guidance to any number of translating committees.

There is also the syntactical point that "in" followed by "to" makes far more sense than "at" followed by "to".

 

[glorydaz]

What I will say, is that those other passages where the identical phrase in Greek is translated IN, give absolute divine guidance as to what the phrase really means.

Personally, I prefer Peter and Paul's guidance to any number of translating committees.

There is also the syntactical point that "in" followed by "to" makes far more sense than "at" followed by "to".

When something is done in the name of Jesus, it carries with it the idea that it's done by those who believe in Him.

Every knee shall bow at the name of Jesus is showing all shall bow before Him, but not that they all have any power through his name. In context, I think the word "at" is more in keeping with the what Paul is saying.

Speaking IN THE NAME of Jesus speaks of His authority attesting to what is said or done by a believer. Read this portion in Acts, where the power of speaking in Jesus' name is given to those who are His.

And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost,.......... 10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

17But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name. 18And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.

Paul uses in the name of Jesus quite often, but it's never in quite the same context he uses here. He is speaking of all things in heaven and earth and under the earth which will bow at the name which is above every name. That includes every being...not just a believer. Satan won't bow IN THE NAME OF JESUS, but he most assuredly will bow when the name that is above every name is throwing him into the lake of fire. It won't be in humble submission, but in defeat and resignation.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Asyncritus]

When something is done in the name of Jesus, it carries with it the idea that it's done by those who believe in Him.

Yes.

Every knee shall bow at the name of Jesus is showing all shall bow before Him, but not that they all have any power through his name. In context, I think the word "at" is more in keeping with the what Paul is saying.

It isn't really.

As you point out, IN implies by the authority vested IN the person/s.

That is precisely what Paul is saying here. Those who are IN Christ are authorised and acceptable to God. Others who are not IN Christ, are not authorised, and are not acceptable.

Speaking IN THE NAME of Jesus speaks of His authority attesting to what is said or done by a believer. Read this portion in Acts, where the power of speaking in Jesus' name is given to those who are His.

Correct.

So those who confess that He is Lord, accept Him, are IN Him, and they alone can acceptably glorify God - which last is the whole object of the exercise.

Paul uses in the name of Jesus quite often [I don't think he does. I've listed all the occurrences of the phrase. If there are any others, please let me know], but it's never in quite the same context he uses here. He is speaking of all things in heaven and earth and under the earth which will bow at the name which is above every name.

In heaven = the angels.
Under the earth = the dead IN Christ, who will rise from the dead
On the earth = the living who are IN Christ

You may not have noticed the direct connection between Php 2 and this passage in Rev 5, which describes its fulfilment:

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Now observe those who are singing the song above: the redeemed.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

These are the ones whose 'knees shall bow'. They are redeemed unto God.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Now observe the connections with Php 2:

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea [the sea shall give up her dead Rev 20.13], and all that are in them,

heard I saying, [this immediately removes all the animal and plant creation who cannot sing]

Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne [= to the glory of God the Father], and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Those are in Christ - because if they are not, then they cannot be before the throne singing the song of the redeemed.

That includes every being...not just a believer.

I think the above establishes beyond any doubt that only those IN Christ can sing that song, the song of the redeemed.

That is only common sense.

It is only those IN Christ whose praise is acceptable to God - because there is no other name under heaven whereby men may be saved.

 

[Free]

Yes.

It isn't really.

As you point out, IN implies by the authority vested IN the person/s.

That is precisely what Paul is saying here. Those who are IN Christ are authorised and acceptable to God. Others who are not IN Christ, are not authorised, and are not acceptable.

Correct.

So those who confess that He is Lord, accept Him, are IN Him, and they alone can acceptably glorify God - which last is the whole object of the exercise.

In heaven = the angels.
Under the earth = the dead IN Christ, who will rise from the dead
On the earth = the living who are IN Christ

You may not have noticed the direct connection between Php 2 and this passage in Rev 5, which describes its fulfilment:

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Now observe those who are singing the song above: the redeemed.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

These are the ones whose 'knees shall bow'. They are redeemed unto God.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Now observe the connections with Php 2:

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea [the sea shall give up her dead Rev 20.13], and all that are in them,

heard I saying, [this immediately removes all the animal and plant creation who cannot sing]

Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne [= to the glory of God the Father], and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Those are in Christ - because if they are not, then they cannot be before the throne singing the song of the redeemed.

I think the above establishes beyond any doubt that only those IN Christ can sing that song, the song of the redeemed.

That is only common sense.

It is only those IN Christ whose praise is acceptable to God - because there is no other name under heaven whereby men may be saved.

While you may be correct about the better translation of Phil 2:10 reading "in," you are incorrect about what it means and it's significance.

What would be better to look at is Romans 14:9-12:

9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. (ESV)

Notice that Paul says this will happen before the judgement seat. We should also consider where this is quoted from, Isaiah 45:21-23:

21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.' (ESV)

Clearly, the passages are meaning what they say, that is, that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. It is quite significant that this OT passage spoken by YHWH of himself, is now directly applied to Jesus in Phil 2:10. That is, however, another topic.

The point in Phil 2:10 then is that all will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord, although most will not do it in worship but rather in final acknowledgment of who Jesus is, a final acceptance of their error, possibly either before or after each persons judgement.

So, while "at" isn't necessarily correct, it gets the point across.

 

[glorydaz]

Clearly, the passages are meaning what they say, that is, that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. It is quite significant that this OT passage spoken by YHWH of himself, is now directly applied to Jesus in Phil 2:10. That is, however, another topic.

The point in Phil 2:10 then is that all will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord, although most will not do it in worship but rather in final acknowledgment of who Jesus is, a final acceptance of their error, possibly either before or after each persons judgement.

So, while "at" isn't necessarily correct, it gets the point across.

There will be a lot of bowing down in that Day, and you put it very well, Free. "In final acknowledgment"... and "acceptance of their error."

Isaiah 2:10-19 - Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. And the idols he shall utterly abolish. And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."

They will bow down under the slaughter. ...(such as one mourning the death of his mother.)

Isaiah 65:12 - "Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not."

 

[Asyncritus]

The point in Phil 2:10 then is that all will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord, although most will not do it in worship but rather in final acknowledgment of who Jesus is, a final acceptance of their error, possibly either before or after each persons judgement.

I think you are mistaken about the meaning of the word 'all'.

You are making it mean 'all without exception', whereas it really means 'all without distinction'.

That there are those who will never bow the knee is shown by several major texts on the subject:

Dan 12.2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Note, not 'ALL'.

Jer 51.57 And I will make drunk her princes and her wise men, her governors and her deputies, and her mighty men; and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

Isa 25.19 Thy dead shall live; my dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast forth the dead.

Ps 49.12 Man in his pomp will not remain;
he is like the beasts that perish.

These are people who will never rise from the dead, and that with one stroke shows that the ALL does not mean 'all without exception', it means 'all without distinction': meaning Jew and Gentile IN Christ, faithful or unfaithful.

That is the case in the Romans passage you quoted:

1 ¶ But him that is weak in faith receive ye, yet not to doubtful disputations.
2 One man hath faith to eat all things: but he that is weak eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth set at nought him that eateth not; and let not him that eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord: and he that eateth, eateth unto the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, unto the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and none dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; or whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ died, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or thou again, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgement-seat of God.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God.

You note the highlighted words indicate quite clearly that Paul is referring to believers, to those IN CHRIST. Not everybody.

Just as I showed in the Rev 5 passage.

 

[WIP]

For someone like me who is not a language scholar, I see little to no difference between the uses of "in" vs. "at" vs. "on" etc. and personally I’d rather not cloud my thinking with it. The bottom line as I read the text is that everyone, and that means everyone, will stand before Him…and we will all bow to Him…and we will all confess that He is Lord…but not everyone that cries, “Lord, lord†will be saved. Many of us may claim today we do not believe but on that day of judgment we will all most definitely believe.

 

[Asyncritus]

The Isaiah passage is equally clear on the point.

Isaiah 45:21-23:

21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.

Who is this spoken to? v17

17 But Israel shall be saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; he is God; that formed the earth and made it; he established it, he created it not a waste, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a place of the land of darkness; I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20 ¶ Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations:

meaning the Jews who are escaped of the nations

they have no knowledge that carry the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. [So why are you Jews worshipping those gods? They can't save you!]

21 Declare ye [who boes the declaring? The Jews, His own people], and bring it forth; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath shewed this from ancient time? who hath declared it of old? have not I the LORD? and [tell the world that]there is no God else beside me; a just God and a saviour; there is none beside me.

22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness [that righteousness which is attributed because of Christ] a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.' (ESV)

Those who turn to Him and are saved, constitute the 'every knee' and the 'every tongue'.

That includes BOTH Jew AND Gentile (= all the ends of the earth) who meet the criterion expressed: Turn to me and be saved.

Paul uses this verse to tell the Romans that whether they eat or don't eat meat or whatever, they ALL, without distinction, whether Jew (who would not eat some meats) or Gentiles (who would eat the same meats) will be saved.
That is why he uses this verse in particular.

 

[Asyncritus]

For someone like me who is not a language scholar, I see little to no difference between the uses of "in" vs. "at" vs. "on" etc. and personally I’d rather not cloud my thinking with it. The bottom line as I read the text is that everyone, and that means everyone, will stand before Him…and we will all bow to Him…and we will all confess that He is Lord…but not everyone that cries, “Lord, lord†will be saved. Many of us may claim today we do not believe but on that day of judgment we will all most definitely believe.

If EVERYONE will stand before Him, how do you square that with those passages I quoted about people NOT RISING from the dead?

 

[WIP]

I figure it's a given that I will stand before Him and make an accounting of myself along with all those that are there with me.

 

[Former Christian]

Asyncritus

You can see from the following that there is an interpretive Tradition for translating the Greek word en as at.


Php 2:10 That AT the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(KJV 1611, 1769)

Php 2:10 that AT the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal beings,
(Darby 1884)

Php 2:10 that AT the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(RSV 1947)

Php 2:10 so that AT the name of Jesus "every knee shall bow’" whether in Heaven or earth or under the earth.
(Phillips New Testament 1972)

Php 2:10 so that AT the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(NASB 1977, 1995)

Php 2:10 that AT the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
(NKJV 1982)

Php 2:10 that AT the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(NIV 1984)

Php 2:10 so that all beings in the heavens, on earth and in the underworld, should bend the knee AT the name of Jesus
(New Jerusalem Bible 1985)

Php 2:10 that AT the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(The New American Bible 1986 revised NT)

Php 2:10 so that AT the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(The New Revised Standard Version 1989)

Php 2:10 so that AT the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(ESV 2001)

Php 2:10 so that AT the name of Jesus every knee should bow–– of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth––
(HCSB 2003)

Php 2:10 that AT the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(New Living Translation 2nd 2004)


The following are a few that translated the Greek word en as in.


Php 2:10 That IN the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:
(Douay Rheims 1899 American Edition <New Testament originally published in1582 from a Latin translation)

Php 2:10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee should bend of heavenlies and of earthlies and of underground ones,
(Diaglot NT 1865, a literal version)

Php 2:10 that IN the name of Jesus every knee may bow—of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth—
(Young’s Literal Translation 1898 <originally translated in 1862)

Php 2:10 that IN the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
(ASV 1901 <agrees with the original Revised Version made in 1881.)

Php 2:10 In order that, IN the name of Jesus, every knee might bow––of beings in heaven, and on earth, and underground,––
(Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible 1902)

And a couple of translations by denominations considered cults that for that reason I didn’t include here.


Here’s a couple of unusual translations, if they can be called such, of the Greek word.


Php 2:10 And so, IN HONOR OF the name of Jesus all beings in heaven, on earth, and in the world below will fall on their knees,
(Good News Translation 1992)

Php 2:10 so that every knee will bow TO the name of Jesus—everyone in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.
(New Century Version 2006)


And here’s a translation that let’s you make the choice yourself.


Php 2:10 That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(Amplified Bible 1965)


There’s a couple of things to notice.

First, is the fact that the Catholic Douay Rheims Bible translates the Greek preposition en as in. From the Latin. It was referenced by the KJV translators who chose to translate the Greek preposition as at. The two modern Catholic Bibles, New American and New Jerusalem follow the KJV Tradition. I would have to do some research to see when this Tradition actually started. But I know that William Tyndale translated the Greek preposition as in.

Second, is that the English word at is diverse in meaning, so that it could have the meaning of in, and often does so. To be at a town has the same meaning as being in a town, such as “We’re at the town of Hellâ€. There’s an actual town called Hell in Michigan. The story goes, that George Reeves was asked in 1841 what he wanted to call his town. He replied, “You can call it hell for all I careâ€. And the name stuck. It’s a little tourist town that plays up the name. There’s another tourist town with that name in the Cayman Islands. To me, it’s funnier than....well, you know.

English translations of the Bible are very interpretive. It’s what led me to learn Greek. It’s hard enough to believe in the Bible, what with all the discrepancies, without people interpreting what’s left. One could say that the English translators are lazy, not wanting to try to understand what they’re translating, or aren’t really in Christ and can’t understand what they’re translating. But I don’t think either is true for most translators. They’re just following a well established Tradition of interpreting the Bible that includes interpretive Bible translation. There are people on this forum who will fight you to the death for the right to follow that established Tradition, believing that the Tradition is the proper way to translate and understand the Bible. Catholics and Protestants aren’t as far apart as some people think. Especially when one considers where the Protestants picked up the Tradition of Biblical interpretation in the first place. And I can only assume that Orthodoxy/Catholicism picked up the Tradition from Judaism as it existed in the first century. Jesus called the interpretations of the first century Jews Traditions of men.

The Greek word en means in. The English grammarians say that in is the primary meaning. But it has secondary meanings. A lot of secondary meanings. And since the Greek word is used 2000+ times in the NT, there’s plenty of opportunity to use all the secondary meanings that can be discovered and can reasonably be fit into a translation.

And it must be noted that the fact that it’s permissible to interpretively translate the Bible in Christianity, there’s a lot of money to be made by calling a reinterpretation of certain Biblical verses by using different words a clarification or a deeper meaning. If the Bible is intended to reveal, it would surely mean the same thing no matter what century one is in. But a human trait is to want new and better things. Too bad this includes the translations of the Bible. If the Bible were to be literally translated to begin with, maybe we wouldn’t have all these Bibles out there. But so long as variation in meaning is allowed, it will always be up to the individual to determine what’s real and what’s an illusion. A Tradition that’s historical or universal won’t be of much help, except as a natural source for understanding.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Asyncritus

The following are in the KJV. The capitalized words are translations of the Greek preposition en.

Interpretive translation is translating the original text in such a way so as to make the most sense to the translator. The translation of the Greek prepositions into English is a good example of the existence of interpretive translating of the Bible. The modern versions had opportunity to change these interpretive translations, but generally chose to follow the interpretive Tradition or to use a different interpretive translation that is as far from or further from the literal meaning. Even interlinears don’t always literally translate the prepositions. There’s only one that I know of that does so consistently.

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God WITH power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
(The Greek preposition sun means with)

Ro 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith AMONG all nations, for his name:
Ro 1:6 AMONG whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
(Being centrally located could convey the meaning of in as a stretch, but plain ole in is better)

Ro 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of THROUGHOUT the whole world.
(The Greek preposition dia means through)

Ro 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve WITH my spirit IN the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
(Wouldn’t be able to accurately translate this back into Greek, unless one already knew what the original was)

Ro 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey BY the will of God to come unto you.
(Don’t even need a preposition to get that meaning)

Ro 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together WITH you BY the mutual faith both of you and me.
(Greek preposition sun means with. Missed in altogether in this verse)

Ro 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are AT Rome also.
(Here you see what I was talking about as far as the English word at. The phrase at the beginning doesn’t even have the Greek preposition en in it. It literally says, So according to me, having the Greek preposition kata in it.)

Ro 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God INTO an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
(The Greek preposition eis means into)

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath AGAINST the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
(I really have to wonder why they thought against is a better translation than in. Most modern translations change this verse to in or something other than against)

Ro 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast OF God,
(In order for this phrase to be OF, it would have to be a Genitive phrase. But it uses the preposition en and is a Dative phrase)

Ro 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are UNDER the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
(Greek preposition upo means under)

Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had YET BEING uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
(in uncircumcision, would be accurate)

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified BY his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved BY his life.
(Big difference between being justified by his blood and in his blood, and saved by his life and in his life. Unless one interprets them as being synonymous)

Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift BY grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(Big difference between gift by grace and gift in grace.)

Ro 5:21 That as sin hath reigned UNTO death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Unto usually means to or into. But sin reigns in death. Which is why death is the last to be overcome)

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Greek preposition dia means through. Big difference between having eternal life through Jesus Christ and in Jesus Christ)

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, WHEREBY we cry, Abba, Father.
(Big difference between whereby and in whom. Those who don’t believe the Spirit is a person would prefer in which, which would be an accurate translation, better than whereby.
The Greek pronoun os can mean either which or whom, depending on whether or not a person is referenced. This is a rare occurance wherein one’s belief in whether a person is referred to or not affects the translation. This phenomenon of how the Spirit is understood shouldn’t be construed as an excuse to interpretively translate the Bible.)

Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even AT the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
(How many today would think of Jesus Christ as being in the right hand of God?)

Ro 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live BY them.
(In them is like living in Christ. By them is like living by Christ. I see the difference, but not many would. It’s a difference between an inward living and an outward living. The true Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly)

Ro 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil WITH good.
(Here’s a misunderstood verse. Evil can’t be overcome with or by good. Otherwise God would have accomplished that immediately. Evil must be overcome in good. And the only way that can be accomplished by humanity is in Christ)

Ro 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one TOWARD another according to Christ Jesus:
Ro 15:6 That ye may WITH one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(The Greek prepositions pros means toward and sun means with. The literal translation of these verses conveys much of what I believe about unity. Something that can’t be seen in this interpretive translation of these verses. And the modern versions don’t improve the matter.)

Ro 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace IN believing, that ye may abound IN hope, THROUGH the power of the Holy Ghost.
(The Greek preposition dia means through. Why did they change it? Interpretive translating, plain and simple)

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified BY the Holy Ghost.
(By or in? Outward or inward?)


I think that’s enough to get my point across. And that’s only in Romans. So much for KJV onlyism. And unfortunately, the “clearer†modern translations are little improvement, if any.

FC

 

[Free]

If EVERYONE will stand before Him, how do you square that with those passages I quoted about people NOT RISING from the dead?

Simply because that isn't the case; that is not what those passages show.

Joh 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (ESV)


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

These two passages, on the other hand, clearly show that all get raised.

Anyway, I'm done in here. This mole-hill has now become a mountain.

 

[glorydaz]

For someone like me who is not a language scholar, I see little to no difference between the uses of "in" vs. "at" vs. "on" etc. and personally I’d rather not cloud my thinking with it. The bottom line as I read the text is that everyone, and that means everyone, will stand before Him…and we will all bow to Him…and we will all confess that He is Lord…but not everyone that cries, “Lord, lord†will be saved. Many of us may claim today we do not believe but on that day of judgment we will all most definitely believe.

AMEN

 

[glorydaz]

Simply because that isn't the case; that is not what those passages show.

Joh 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (ESV)


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

These two passages, on the other hand, clearly show that all get raised.

Anyway, I'm done in here. This mole-hill has now become a mountain.

All the dead will be raised...no doubt about it.
The goats and the sheep stand before the throne of God.

 

[Asyncritus]

Simply because that isn't the case; that is not what those passages show.

Joh 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (ESV)


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

These two passages, on the other hand, clearly show that all get raised.

Anyway, I'm done in here. This mole-hill has now become a mountain.

You haven't said anything about those passages I quoted from the OT, Free.

Give it your best shot.

They say that not every one gets raised. You need to do some reconciling of the two passages here.