A wife being under the husband.

[Classik]

What a surprise! It was not God's original intention that women should be under (submit to) their husbands.

Genesis 3:16 NKJV
To the woman He said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;

In pain you shall bring forth children;

Your desire shall be for your husband,

And he shall rule over you.â€

There was a reason why God had to say this: Eve sinned against God - and God decided to also punish her. That is to say, If Eve had not sinned God would have not made HIS statement. Both Adam and his honey would have been mutually equal.

My questions.

* Women are to submit to their husbands. Is this a kind of punishment for what Eve did?

* Are women still under this curse (if it's actually a curse)

* Should a woman submit to a man that is not her husband. (office setting, neighborhood, church etc)

I believe in potential difference, though. Two things can't work unless there is a potential difference between them. The more the potential difference the more the degree of agreement. If the man has higher potential then the woman would definitely humble herself before him. If the woman has higher potential....then what (The bible aid?). This is where the unbelievers have a problem.

Potential can mean anything: being the breadwinner, powerful influence etc

 

[Tina]

Going by your logic, where do single women stand? Are they free from "punishment" of a husband ?

I don't believe happily married women will consider being married and submitting to husbands as "punishment" , or that single women are spared from such a punishment.

The NT has plenty to say about submission - submission to Christ, to Church authority, government authorities, employers as well as husband.


And I don't understand your point about potential difference. Are you trying to ask about women with potential to be breadwinners instead of the husbands?

 

[Classik]

Going by your logic, where do single women stand? Are they free from "punishment" of a husband ?

I don't believe happily married women will consider being married and submitting to husbands as "punishment" , or that single women are spared from such a punishment.

The NT has plenty to say about submission - submission to Christ, to Church authority, government authorities, employers as well as husband.


And I don't understand your point about potential difference. Are you trying to ask about women with potential to be breadwinners instead of the husbands?

About potential and potential difference, yes - most women who are well to do end up controlling their husbands. Some Christian Women are guilty too.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

About potential and potential difference, yes - most women who are well to do end up controlling their husbands. Some Christian Women are guilty too.

thats feminism for you! divorce higher than ever, homosexuality on the rise.

destruction of family and marriage as predicted by the bible.

*[[1Ti 4:1-3]] HNV* But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron; forbidding marriage and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

 

[Tina]

About potential and potential difference, yes - most women who are well to do end up controlling their husbands. Some Christian Women are guilty too.

Actually somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion, controlling the husband or household does not necessarily mean lack of submission toward husband.

 

[reba]

I have never thought of wifely submission as punishment. For me it is freedom. A freedom i sometimes fight against but still freedom.

If women were not submissive me would never lead. We are shown that in Genesis. Good ol Adam did not have the guts to tell Eve dont do that, or even I will not eat. Adam wanted to do it his way...

I do not see earning Adams bread by the sweat of his brow as punishment it is just the way it is.

In the work place an employee should submit to the boss. ( talking things being proper)

The relationship of husband & wife is a picture of the church. The work place relationships are not.

Disregard of the biblical teachings of marriage is a big problem in the church today. Both for/of men and women.

What makes a marriage work can be totally different with each couple. At my house i do so called manly work... electric, plumbing, painting, repairs etc those are my talents. While doing those types of chores i can say... get this .. lift that.. hold those ... i get bossy that is simply getting the task done has nothing to do with submitting. I am submitting by getting the task done.. DH does heavy work splitting wood mowing the big yard. heavy lifting. Many things are discussed if we come to an impasse it is , what ever it is, is done his way, right wrong doesn't matter it is his choice/ responsibility. There in is my freedom...

 

[reba]

Actually somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion, controlling the husband or household does not necessarily mean lack of submission toward husband.

This i can quickly agree with

Actually somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion, controlling the household does not necessarily mean lack of submission toward husband.

Controlling the husband? does not sound one bit submissive but what you mean by control and what i think you mean may be 2 completely different things

 

[Aardverk]

"Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”

There was a reason why God had to say this: Eve sinned against God - and God decided to also punish her. That is to say, If Eve had not sinned God would have not made HIS statement. Both Adam and his honey would have been mutually equal.

There is a Rabbinical Midrash which explains that the first woman was in fact Lilith, who gets only a very brief and rather odd mention in the bible. The Midrash explains that Lilith was made at the same time as Adam and equal to Adam hence "27 So God created man in his own image....male and female created he them" which appears way before the story of Eve being made from Adam's rib. Unfortunately for Lilith, Adam couldn't stand her bikkering so God got rid of Lilith and later made Eve from Adam's rib to empasise that she was inferior to him.

I'm not claiming any of this is true, I'm just pointing out, how the some Rabbis interpret their early texts - assuming I have remembered it properly. I suppose Jews should be better at the original documents that we are

 

[Classik]

Actually somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion, controlling the husband or household does not necessarily mean lack of submission toward husband.

You are absolutely right. 0.1 Cent;)
--
I could have made it clearer:

I was actually refering to this kind of situation, e.g.

A rich woman has a poor husband who has no good job. Both come home and the wife says to the husband:

"Go do the cooking!":angry
Cooking done, and food served, Both polished off the food.

"Will I clear the table for you?"2
"I'm sorry, ma'am."

Man clears the table and comes back to the parlor. He sits beside the wife. TV on, Larry King - CNN.

"These Political people in the government," husband says.

Wife takes the remote and tunes to another station: Cartoon Network.

"That Larry commentary was important to me," husband implores.
"What did I hear you say?:bigfrown Wife roars. "I bought that TV!"

wifes goes out and comes back only to notice the husband listening to CNN.com.

"What a h**!"
Husband shudders and immediately sings a thousand words of remorse: sorry, forgive, have mercy,....

The following day the husband uses the wife's mobile phone but suddenly drops it.

"Yes - you are here to destroy my things. You couldn't afford any."

Husband goes on to apologise!
"Don't sorry me! (the following morning)Are the kids up?"

"I'm not quite sure."
"Heavens! How do you get things done? Won't they go to school?"

sorry sorry sorry!
"Good for nothing!"

---
Husband prepares to go to Camp Nou.
"Hey! Where are you going?"
"It's sports time."
"No going out! Go and feed the dogs."

-----
Night comes.
"It has been four months."
"When.....?" wife asks
"You see, you know....uuum. It-it-it's sunset....what do couples normally do when....?"

"Shut up, man, go try the street girls."

 

[Classik]

Thanks for your reply, Aardverk. I've never heard that before.

 

[Classik]

Well, reba, good point. But was that God's original plan? I think it happened after the fall. Thanks

 

[reba]

Well, reba, good point. But was that God's original plan? I think it happened after the fall. Thanks

Lost me Classik?

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

 

[Classik]

Lost me Classik?

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

crystal.

 

[savedbyhim01]

"* Women are to submit to their husbands. Is this a kind of punishment for what Eve did?"

I don't the submitting is necessarily the punishment. Rather gender conflict, oppression from men, and women being unsatisfied with their lot in life is the punishment. Submitting to the husband in a happily functioning marriage is not punishment, IMO. There must be some kind of order in the world from governments and companies, down to the family.

* Are women still under this curse (if it's actually a curse)

Women are still required to submit to their husbands as the New Testament teaches this in Ephesians 5.

* Should a woman submit to a man that is not her husband. (office setting, neighborhood, church etc)"

The Bible does not require women to submit to any random man. However, she should be submissive to the leaders of the church as well as a boss if she has one. But in these cases there may be some potential conflict if for example a boss wants one thing, but the husband wants another. In those cases, I believe the woman should submit to the husband as the first priority (as to Christ in everything).

 

[Classik]

Another puzzling question:
Who is a helper? The moment we hear the word 'helper' then there are two or more people or things involved: the person being helped and the helper.

If I have 1000 balls and I want to transfer them into a store, I could decide to call Mike to assist me in this job. Mike being my helper should, normally, not be expected to do more work. If I transfered 700 balls, he should do the rest. A 50/50 or a greater ratio to the helper would be to abuse the helper. Can Mike submit to Classik who is being helped?


Genesis 2:18
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper (Eve = woman) suitable for him.

* Let's talk about our homes here. There is no place in this world where men do more domestic chores than women - and in a home where women exist. Women do more work. (A helper now doing more work. Why?)

* A helper (woman) is submiting to the man being helped. Should a helper (woman) submit to the person being helped?

I think we know where am going? (And sorry for my over-inquisitiveness)

 

[proverbs35]

Well, was that God's original plan? I think it happened after the fall. Thanks

God always intended for Adam/man to have headship in the family/home.This didn't happen as a result of the fall. Several things indicate this:

1. Adam was made first. (1 Tim 2:13)
2. Woman came out of man, and not other way around. (1 Cor 11:12)
3. Adam told to tend garden. (Gen 2:15) Adam named the animals. (Gen 2:20) He was given a job and responsibility before he was given a wife.
4. Adam received instruction from God about not eating from tree firsthand. (Gen 2:16-17). Eve hadn't been made at that time.
5. Twice, God gave Adam the authority to name the woman, and not the other way around. (Gen 2:23, 3:20)
6. After sin was committed, God questioned the man rather than the woman. (Gen 3:9)
7. Sin entered the world through Adam and not Eve. (Rom 5:12)

CONSEQUENCES & PUNISHMENTS
God's original plan for marriage is much like what Paul talked about: Wife respectfully submitting; God submitted husband providing loving, servant leadership. However, sin perverted that plan. There are two schools of thought here.

1. A wife will want to please her husband, but he'll use her desire to please him to lord over her. (Gen 3:16 MSG) Wives will desire to please their husbands over and above pleasing God. (Man worship rather than God worship). Husbands will want wives to submit to their own selfish desires rather than banding together to accomplish God's plans. Husbands will be controlling rather than providing loving leadership.

2. Wives will desire to control and manipulate their husbands rather than submit...

Conclusion: God created man to have headship. The fall just perverted it.

 

[Tina]

Is there a need to be calculative, Classik ?

How will you like it if your husband expects you, his helper, to accomplish everything around the house even if you're mentally and physically exhausted. Or do you think it's fair for a husband to come back from a long day at work just to be laden with more work at home ? How exactly will you divide a 50/50 workload ?

In a comprehensive assessment conducted in my country, it was guesstimated that an average monthly pay of a full-time housewife should be 1200 USD.

Over-paid, under-paid or reasonable ?

How many husbands will pay their wives USD 1200 just to be their wives/helpers ? And this excludes household expenses ...

Some women are more helpful than others, some are stronger, some are weaker, some healthier, some not so healthy. How much the wive helper contributes to the family really depends on these issues as well as individual couples, doesn't it ?

Where I live, almost every other family has a domestic maid. Maids are everywhere and they hail from other countries so it's easy to tell. It's possible that even a non-working wife has a maid to do all the household chores for the family. Does that make the wife less of a helper to the husband, even though it's the maid that's doing most or all of the job ?

What about career woman ? Is it wrong to be a career woman after marriage, with or without children ? Does that make them less submissive or less of helpers to their husbands ? Not unless they become household control freaks, which I've personally not seen happening ....


Romans 14:22-23
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

 

[Classik]

Is there a need to be calculative, Classik ?

How will you like it if your husband expects you, his helper, to accomplish everything around the house even if you're mentally and physically exhausted. Or do you think it's fair for a husband to come back from a long day at work just to be laden with more work at home ? How exactly will you divide a 50/50 workload ?

The question just struck my mind, I decided to ask.

Actually, I'm not saying it is a crime for women to be submissive. Like Jethro Bodine pointed out in the other thread, a submissive woman captures the heart of the husband. And the husband is ever willing to die for such a woman. He is ever willing to trap 1000 bullets coming the direction if the wife with his heart.


--
I am talking about normal circumstance here and the reason women were called HELPER by God

How will you like it if your husband expects you, his helper

Or how will a husband like it if his wife, his helper...

 

[Classik]

average monthly pay of a full-time housewife should be 1200 USD.

chicken feed;)

 

[God's_gift]

The question just struck my mind, I decided to ask.




--
I am talking about normal circumstance here and the reason women were called HELPER by God



Or how will a husband like it if his wife, his helper...

For me, the man is the servant leader and the wife is the servant helper. Both husband and wife are servant of the Lord. If both will commit themselves to serving in their particular ground, this will create the greatest marraige possible, you know....They will be serving each other and as a team, serving the Lord and the family.