Dorothy Mae
Member
Strange answer…
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
A WRATHFUL GOD & THE ATONEMENT
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
Highway54
Member
I could have said Ditto, you accused me of being off topic when I responded to you, so I simply reminded you of the same maam.
Dorothy Mae
Member
I’m not. Drop the “faithful slave” absurd claim. Talk about the subject instead.
Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, . . .
Best answer is because God said sin deserves death. If He just brushed it off now, He would be just like a parent who keeps warning the child he will get spanked but never does it.
Jethro Bodine
Member
No one has brought up the Ransom model - Matthew 20:28, Hebrews 9:15.
When we sinned we sold ourselves as slaves into service to the flesh. But in the appointed time set by God for redemption of the slaves, Christ appeared to pay the price of redemption required to set us free from the slavery we sold ourselves into because of our want and need. And because he paid the price of redemption to the powers to whom we were enslaved we are freed from that enslavement and are now owned by and enslaved to Kinsman Redeemer Jesus.
When we sinned we sold ourselves as slaves into service to the flesh. But in the appointed time set by God for redemption of the slaves, Christ appeared to pay the price of redemption required to set us free from the slavery we sold ourselves into because of our want and need. And because he paid the price of redemption to the powers to whom we were enslaved we are freed from that enslavement and are now owned by and enslaved to Kinsman Redeemer Jesus.
Iconoclast
Member
What powers received such a payment?
You can't sell something you don't own.
Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The devil and his kingdom of darkness. We rightfully belonged to him by selling ourselves to his service by sinning. Jesus paid the ransom, exchanging his life for ours, setting us free from he who rightfully held us. But, since Jesus had no sin, death and the devil could not hold him after the redemption price was rightfully paid.
Jethro Bodine
Member
John 8:34
2 Peter 2:19
Remember God is buying us back. The concept of redemption in Israel was that you are paying the price to get back what was a part of the tribal and family inheritance.
Perhaps you can share your understading of Jesus being a ransom in Matthew 20:28.
Mat 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Yes, Paul tells we were all slaves to sin. But God didn't "buy us back." He paid the price to appease God's wrath.
The Bible uses all kinds of metaphors when it comes to redeeming people. Ransom, propitiation, redemption, reconciliation.
journeyman
Member
I think penal substitution is the worst heresy ever invented, because the cross of Christ shows Jesus holding back his wrath from people committing crimes against him. Crimes according to the Torah.
According to the Torah, shedding innocent blood is sin. Jesus said if people don't repent of sin they're damned. God is no substitute.
And yet, it is throughout the Bible and makes the most sense, the best sense, of why Jesus had to die.
I don't understand what your point is with any of this.
The human race became defiled with Adam's sin (sin nature).
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Romans 5:18
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5:12
How did the one man's sin, (Adam) spread to all men, if not through procreation?
JLB
journeyman
Member
It makes the least sense, because spilling innocent blood in OT sacrifice was for the purpose of repentance, not substitution.
The offerer confessed his sin against God. Jesus had sin committed against him.
My point is, if your child was murdered, would you let the murderer go free if he was sorry?
The substitute was the animal, but that was insufficient which is why God had to come himself to sacrifice himself once for all. This is all in Hebrews.
Of course not, there still needs to be justice, but that justice is fulfilled only on the cross. What does this have to do with Christ on the cross?
Iconoclast
Member
I do not see where Satan owns men!
God alone owns the rights to men.
How would Jesus dying mean anything to Satan, when all sin is against God?
Dorothy Mae
Member
Doesn’t say that anywhere in the Bible. Says we all tend to sin starting in our youth, not infancy.
Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mene because all sinned—
Because all sinned, not because all have a sin nature at birth.
Because sin “entered the world” and we are all born into this world.
Iconoclast
Member
A total denial of revealed truth.
Highway54
Member
I personally believe that if it is found in the Bible, there is a reason why it is there. I get that you may not understand the role of the slave, but Jesus said it, I consider it critical, and since we are under the commandment to teach all the things he commanded, I believe you might consider examining it to see the credibility of it, as well as the importance to the Christian faith.